the trouble with Teyla

[tielan]

Most people in Atlantis fandom don't like Teyla.

I know that most of my SG-1 friends aren't fans of the character, which I find surprising since most of them were Sam Carter fen back in the day. No, Teyla isn't Sam, and Rachel isn't Amanda, but their characters in S1 have the same potentiality: I just doubt that Teyla will get the run in Atlantis that Sam did in SG-1.

There are objections to her background, her lack of scenes, her dress style, the fact that she was originally slated to be the primary love interest for Sheppard... It goes on.

I'm kinda saddened that she doesn't get half the airtime or half the story that she could if they'd use her properly. It's a bit like the waste of Teal'c in the first six seasons. (Then again, CJ got paid to appear in every episode, whether or not he had lines, so it worked for him.) And the kind of contempt that's reserved for Teyla by the John/Elizabeth fen is rather like the vitriol reserved for Sam by the hardcore Jack/Daniel folks back in SG-1 fandom.

"And it's all just a little bit of history repeated!"

Never let it be said that fen learn, change, and/or grow in their journey through fandom. It's a little saddening, especially since the people doing the bitching this time around seem to be primarily those who were doing the defending of Sam last time.

On the other hand, my last Teyla-fic (Five Men Who Never Wanted...) got good responses, so there is a market out there for the character. We just need a few more people who like her and are willing to write fic for her.

Comments

[meghatron.livejournal.com]

I'm a John/Liz 'shipper, but I like Teyla a lot. I have issues with some costuming and hair choices made by the production team, but that is separate from the character herself and indeed those issues rise from the fact that I think she ought to be respected and admired based on what we've seen of her. I simply don't see romantic chemistry between her and John Sheppard, but I am definitely not of the group that has contempt for her simply because I think he's got the hots for Dr. Weir.

[krazykitkat.livejournal.com]

I don't hate her, don't even dislike her or object to her. I just haven't found her interesting yet, a bit of a non-event. I think it's partly the actress and partly the writers.

I've never understood vitriol for any character. While I prefer John/Elizabeth, I'm not going to bash any other character that may come along.

But then I tend to not be an OTPer. West Wing is my major fandom, and while CJ/Danny is my first love, I also wrote CJ with at least 6 other characters. I think I fall in love with individual characters primarily rather than pairings.

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

Personally, I love Teyla. She's strong, she's polite, she's the real diplomat on the base (and as much as I love Elizabeth, the next person who calls her a diplomat I'm going to smack! She's a negotiator, which may involve being a diplomat or using diplomatic skills, but it's an entirely separate profession!), she's the only person who is halfway decent at close-up fighting and it's obvious she's got a sense of humor even despite the hard choices of being an outside to both her people and the Atlantians she's had to make. I like the style she dresses in. At least it's consistent and obviously easy to move and fight in. If we're going to bitch about any person's clothes on Atlantis... How come Elizabeth has 50 million outfits and everyone else has, oh, two?

None of the characters have much in the ways of backgrounds or clear and explicit characterizations. It's called development. Learn to love it, people! Actually though, I think we know more about Teyla now than we did about Sam in the comparative part of S2. And by "know," I mean explicit canon (such as Sam's dead fiancee vs. Teyla's knowledge of the carvings in the ruins) as opposed to things implied, hinted at or otherwise are subtext for fen to decipher on their own.

[tielan]

Teyla's costuming is, for me, one of the things less likely to bring on Rage. It's preferable to certain other clothing choices in Stargate's history, and can be waved away simply by the explanation of 'she's alien'. Not entirely satisfactory, but quite sufficient.

Her sidelining through S1 (and Weir and Ford's) in favour of pumping up Sheppard is what primarily annoys me. There were opportunities to use her in the storyline, and instead we were treated to the John Sheppard Show.

Then there's the problem that there are way too many John/Liz shippers whose opinion of Teyla is heading in the direction of the opinions of Sam found among Jack/Daniel 'lifers'.

I'm starting to think that I don't like explicit shipping of any kind. (Even my own OTP preferences.) OTPs make fans' brains dribble out their earlobes.

[tielan]

I can understand Teyla not 'doing it' for people - to be honest, I thought Liz was rather boring until 'Before I Sleep' when I sat up and started taking an interest. I still don't know why. Sometimes it just takes time or a particular cue for the switch to flick.

(Then again, I'm a huge proponent of liking the characters I'm writing about, and if I don't like them, then at least writing them consistent with their position and characterisation in the show.)

What I don't understand is where the 'not doing it for me' turns into making fun of or taking down the character for their lack.

No, Teyla doesn't have much to do outside being pretty, taking them to new worlds, and occasionally kicking ass. And even with the ass-kicking, they haven't really given her anything to work with.

But they haven't given Elizabeth very much meat for the grist, either. She's definitely playing the Hammond-like character, which sticks her in the 'not out in the action' and 'not finding the solution' box and crimps the possibilities of her style.

There's an axe that's just asking for grinding with TPTB of Stargate Atlantis: their inability to write strong, central female characters.

I am an OTPer - but along the way, I've learned that OTPs are what I'd personally like to see, not what I'm going to get. And if I don't get it in show, I'll take it in fanfic. That's what it's there for - right?

Of course, there's a part of me that wants to see Sheppard/Teyla on the show, as much for the implosion of the Sheppard/Weir and Sheppard/McKay fangroups as 'cos I like the idea of it. (Somehow, I doubt I'll like TPTB's execution of it.)

[tielan]

Hm. Good point about Liz and the negotiation thing. She's not always the most tactful person, but a negotiator doesn't have to be tactful.

*writes down a plotbunny idea*

My suspicion is that some people are willing to dismiss her because she doesn't have any specific storyline or role to her the way that other characters do.

The butt-kicker role is taken (or overtaken) by Sheppard - and with Ronan on the team, the slice of pie will get even smaller. While she is the diplomat when they go out and meet new cultures, a TV series thrives on action, drama, and conflict - very little of which is served in diplomacy.

Liz is the leader in Atlantis, and they rarely show the Athosians and Teyla's interaction with them as a leader of her people. I was hoping they'd do something with her Wraith-sense in Season Two, but it looks like it's being put on the backburner. Bummer.

So I guess, as far as character development goes, I'd like to see more for Teyla (and Liz) this season. It would be nice to see the girls go out and get some action (of the non-sexual kind).

Of course, I fear the odds of that happening are slightly miniscule. *sigh*

[terrie01.livejournal.com]

I like Teyla. She was nifty in her response in "Suspicion" and I adored her talk with Sheppard in "Seige 1" about how they should handle the culling. I'm not always the biggest fan of the amount of makeup they throw on the RL's face, but, hey, if that's the biggest of my problems... Sadly, I have a terrible time writing her.

[jalara.livejournal.com]

I don't dislike Teyla at all, but I have found it hard to like her. In fact, for me, most of S1 left me not knowing if I really liked Atlantis or not. IMHO, I didn't really see much ship (not that that is a requirement for me to like a show, but it does add interest.) My favorite character, Liz, seemed underutilized and weak for a leader. Teyla and Ford didn't seem to be all that developed. And the story lines didn't seem all that fresh or new. I didn't like the Wraith as villians. Rodney annoys me more than amuses me. The clothes and makeup didn't add or detract from the story as far as I'm concerned. So, why did I watch? Because it's Stargate, and I'm obsessed. :)

I can see why they replaced Ford. I don't think his character added much interest. But Teyla was totally underutilized and undeveloped. She does have a lot of potential. She knows many of the worlds that are being visited and she is alien. Why don't we get to see more of what drives her and motivates her to take sides with the new Atlanteans?

S2 seems to have addressed some of these problems. Liz seems much stronger and more in control as leader. Teyla and Ronon have added the alien dimension lacking from S1. And I'm personally starting to see some 'ships emerge. For me, they are John/Liz and Teyla/Ronon.

As far as Sam lovers and John/Liz shippers hating Teyla, I do love Sam and I am starting to see John/Liz, but I'm also starting to like Teyla a lot. So, I'm not in the camp you're discussing in this post. My main beef with both of the Stargates is their portrayal of female characters. I really think TPTB need a female writer on their staff that could add a more feminine perspective to the characters. They obviously don't understand female thinking and to me, that shows. But, for an action-adventure show, I'm not sure it's totally needed either, I just think it would add more depth and realism to their female characters.

As far as liking Teyla vs. liking Sam. I look back on my early viewing of SG1 and realize that I didn't really even *see* Sam until "Singularity" and "Solitudes." Before that she was kind of like Ford, just hanging around, holding a gun, being the token woman. She emerged in those two eps and became much more three dimensional. Teyla needs some eps like those (not so much in content, but in character building) so that we (the audience) get to know her better. There have been some nice moments that have begun to reveal her, but nothing that has made me embrace her as a character and made me want to know her more. I hope S2 will bring some of those eps for her.

[toasteronfire.livejournal.com]

Ah, you've hit one of my Atlantis pet peeves! Teyla does get the most shit thrown at her, more so than pretty much any SG character out there. Even more than Vala, who personally annoys me to no end.

Now I think a lot of fans don't like her because she's been a bit bland so far (can't argue too much there) or because she's supposed to be Sexy!Alien!Female! (can't argue there either, but it is funny how many of those fans see nothing wrong with objectifying Shep/Dex/whathaveyou) or because they just don't like her (can't change that). But there is indeed a fanbase out there that absolutely hate her and say the nastiest stuff about her, even hinting at nasty stuff about RL. And oh look, they all happen to be Shep/Weir shippers (NOT saying all S/W shippers hate Teyla, just a select, "honored" few). Yay, women tearing down other women to get what they want! /sarcasm Funny how many S/W shippers are getting onto the Ronan/Teyla bandwagon now. I'm sure most of them do support the ship, but some of the supporters stated earlier how much they disliked her and how they thought she was too defined by a man (Shep) and now all they do is glow about the R/T pairing. Smells fishy, doesn't it?

Sorry, this has been going on at GW for quite some time and it bugs. Why do some shippers have to be so immature and downright mean? IT'S A FAKE RELATIONSHIP PEOPLE! I mean, I love my ship to no end but at least I do my damndest to bring it up rather than tear another ship down.

/rant

[tielan]

Do they put that much makeup on her face? I hadn't actually noticed.

Then again, I'm shocking when it comes to noticing these things.

The 'difficult to write' thing is something that I've noticed many people saying - do you have any idea why that is?

[tielan]

The 'dislike' of Teyla is huge in the general fandom. Granted, they haven't used her half as much as they could, but they haven't used Ford or Weir as much as they could, either, and both those characters have their worshipful fen.

It's understandable that there are characters that people connect with, and, no, Stargate Atlantis hasn't done a very good job with the female characters, but the degree of dislike or mockery of the character (sometimes thinly disguised as 'she does nothing for me') is unbelievable.

At least the Sam-haters are understandable: she has a serious role in SG-1, and she takes screen time from the main slash OTP, not only in having a serious role, but also in having a canon attraction to and interest from the alpha male.

They've hardly played on the Sheppard/Teyla thing at all. Maybe way back at the start of Season One, but they definitely haven't been using it since then. In the last dozen episodes, Joe Flanigan's been very wooden acting in any scenes with Rachel, and she's nowhere near likely to come up as a main character, or with a significant set of lines anytime soon. They simply haven't elaborated a plot that they can use for her - a thread they can run with.

And I'd like Sheppard/Weir more if the Shep/Weirs hadn't been throwing it at me in Season One when Liz was firmly still in love with Simon. Majorly peeved off fan here when they made Simon the bastard of the relationship.

[tielan]

Atlantis Season One didn't have the overall cohesiveness for which I'd hoped. It rather closely matched SG-1 Season One, in fact. Season 2 of SG-1 was what hooked me irrevocably. However, I don't think Season Two of Atlantis will do the same. I'll watch it, and I'll write it, but it simply doesn't grip me the way SG-1 did: with the need to see more. (The need to see better writing, perhaps.)

Possibly my disappointment with Atlantis stems from the sheer wonder and awe in which I hold Battlstar Galactica which did grip me from the beginning (okay, seriously? The third ep, 'Bastille Day'? Completely sucked me in). I was hoping for something to hold my attention, but didn't really watch the first half of Season One until December, and didn't watch the last four episodes until March.

So, no, Atlantis isn't gripping.

The beef I have with the anti-Teyla fen is that quite a few seem to claim that Teyla 'does nothing for them', then go around putting her down in every way possible. And yes, quite a few of them are Shep/Weir fen who are now going in for Teyla/Ronan - rather like the Jack/Daniels frequently utilise Sam/Teal'c to get Sam out of Jack's orbit.

And yes, it bugs me that most Shep/Weir fen completely dismissed Weir/Simon when it was such an integral part of the character (if not publicised, then she certainly felt deeply about it). If it hadn't been shoved in my face from day one (complete with OMG!SEXYHOTPPL!SQUEE!) in SGA fandom then I'd probably be less annoyed.

It's just all fan OTP politics repeating, and it's extremely annoying to see that quite a few of the fen writing off Teyla's character are the same who protested at the Denialites of SG-1 writing off Sam's character.

[gate-girl.livejournal.com]

I think you've pretty much managed to sum up my feelings about the character of Teyla!

Personally, I think that both Teyla AND Liz have been somewhat under-used in Atlantis season 1 - whether that will change in S2 (or has changed)I don't know. Your comment about "The John Shepherd" show hit the nail on the head - when writers and producers create ensemble shows, I wish they'd actually WRITE ensemble shows, instead of spotlighting just one or two of the characters. Something which I think was also evident in season 1 of SG1 with the sidelining of Sam and Teal'c. I think that Teyla has so much potential to her as a character - just look at the growth of Sam in seasons 1-9 - and I hate to see a promising character being ignored by the writers (cough *Ford* cough) and torn down by the fans just because she's "in the way" of the two people they want to see snuggling. IMHO, I can see John/Teyla so much easily than I can see John/Liz - there's no denying that the latter two care for each other personally and respect each other professionally, but I just don't see that "spark" between them, whereas I can with John/Teyla. They have the same care and respect, with an added twist to make it a leetle more intense.

[toasteronfire.livejournal.com]

"The 'dislike' of Teyla is huge in the general fandom. Granted, they haven't used her half as much as they could, but they haven't used Ford or Weir as much as they could, either, and both those characters have their worshipful fen."

Good point, especially with Ford. And while Weir has gotten some development in BIS and Intruder, I must admit I'm really not completely "there" with her character yet. She still seems to fade a bit into the background when the MIGHTY men come in with their MIGHTY plans...sigh. Here's to more development for BOTH Liz and Teyla!

"They've hardly played on the Sheppard/Teyla thing at all. Maybe way back at the start of Season One, but they definitely haven't been using it since then."

Indeed, it does seem like TPTB don't know where they're going with S/T, if they're going anywhere at all. There are rumblings that something will happen in "Conversion", but what exactly and what impact it will have on the ship is unknown. I don't mind either way what they do with S/T, but if TPTB stay wishywashy then I'm going to start worrying about what they might do if they start to focus on McKay/Weir.

"And I'd like Sheppard/Weir more if the Shep/Weirs hadn't been throwing it at me in Season One when Liz was firmly still in love with Simon. Majorly peeved off fan here when they made Simon the bastard of the relationship."

Interesting, so what do you think of McKay/Weir then? Both S/W and M/W ultimately depend on ending Simon/Weir to survive. Did the M/W shippers just not overwhelm you with SimonSucksElizabethReallyLovesRodney attitude?
(I do think Elizabeth loved Simon in s1 and I think she even still loves him now. It's just too early to push a ship on her. She needs to get that part of her life behind her, as well as focus on leading Atlantis. But I do hope Rodney is there to support her as a friend, even if nothing ever develops there) :)
And don't get me started on the wasted plot element that was Simon/Elizabeth. That ship had potential and I actually would have enjoyed it, but TPTB seemed to doom it from the start and dismiss it to set up a later Elizabeth/? ship. Boo.


btw, so with you on your BSG comment. BSG eps always keep me wanting more when they end, but with Atlantis recently it's been cut and dry eps with little to no continuity between them. (Duet? Trinity?) TPTB needs to work on that as well.

[tielan]

Oh, for sure the girls have been getting a bum deal. I think we were particularly lucky in SG-1, that AT was both a strong personality and a good actress and stood up to the PTB. Otherwise, we might have had the Jack-and-Daniel-pony-show in SG-1.

There are opportunities for using characters other than John Sheppard that have been manifestly passed up in Atlantis, and while both Liz and Teyla are getting a little more action in Season Two, it's still nothing compared with the boys. They really do need to manufacture a situation where the girls get to play the Big Damn Heroes.

[terrie01.livejournal.com]

For me, it's that it's very easy to make even more formal than she really is. Teyla does have a playful side, but we see so little of it that I tend to end up with a Teyal that's very wooden.

[tielan]

Interesting, so what do you think of McKay/Weir then?

I like the idea of it, the concept. At this stage, I prefer them as friends, with little hints of possibly more. Which, I guess, is how I like most of the interactions on Atlantis.

Also, one of the key things with McKay is that he's so not ready for an intimate (emotionally and physically) relationship with anyone that the sheer volume of Shep/McKay fic blows me away every time. After 'Trinity', I can see him working a bit more on his personal relationships: he's got a lot of fences to mend.

So while I like McKay/Weir as friends, any relationship between him and anyone in Atlantis would be slow and more friendship-slipping-into-unconscious-love than OMG-I-Love-Them-Must-Screw-Them.

And yeah, the people who like McKay/Weir are a little less SQUEE! SQUEE! SQUEE! in-your-face about it.

I think it's the continued insistence that "OMG, Sheppard and Weir are made for each other and they never really loved anyone else and must now have Teh Bestest Sexx0rs Evah!" And that's even from people who aren't teenyboppers.

There's no pacing to the depiction of Shep/Weir, no graduality, no sense of timing - of appropriateness. It's all 'rush in and screw like bunnies' (that I've seen) - that even the friendship between John and Elizabeth is completely ignored. The attitude is that they flirt with each other so it must be lustbunnies.

I think she even still loves him [Simon] now. It's just too early to push a ship on her.

I'm in full agreement here. You don't 'get over' loving someone the way Liz showed she cared about Simon: even if he didn't love her back the same way. She might be angry and bitter about it in private, but it will heal - it will just take time. And she'll be much more careful the next time she gives her heart anywhere.

I haven't heard the spoilers for 'Conversion' - I thought there was a kiss for Teyla somewhere in Season 2 but I don't know which episode (and am not particularly minded to find out). I think I know with whom, but I'm not 100% sure, and what it means in the broad shippy scheme of things is completely out of the ball park for me.

[tielan]

Ah. I find it helps to write Teyla with a very dry sense of humour rather than completely formal. In that, she is a lot like Teal'c, who got the 'deadpan' lines.

I see Teyla as seeing/commenting on the irony of situations or life in Atlantis with her innocence of the conventions that the expedition take for granted all coming from Earth.

[dark-cygnet.livejournal.com]

Hey there, here through the SGA newsletter. You've brought up alot of interesting points. I, myself, am a John/Elizabeth person but i don't hate Teyla at all, i like her quite a bit. It seems every fandom i'm in has folks who have nothing better to do than to badmouth characters that they see as a threat to their ship or the show dynamic. I still remember the nastiness from the Ray wars from Due South. What I think-and i could be totally wrong *g*-is that nowadays the fan base is getting younger, alot more people have access to the net, so i think age factors in more today than it did say 5-10 years ago. The net allows for more world-wide friends but it's also easier just to be more impolite or downright nasty, because whats the chance you are actually going to meet the person you've just insulted face to face? Not right, but that's how it seems it is to me.

I like the idea of characters getting to know one another first, then slowly coming to care for each other. I could see that with John and Liz once she dealt with her feelings for Simon-because they are very much there-and i can see that with Carson and Rodney as i agree Rodney probaby isn't ready for something like that.

My frustration with the show stems from the fact that i don't think *any* of the women on SGA are being utilized to their full potential whether it be storyline or character development. It's kinda like Star Trek where you have the John, Rodney, Carson or Ronan trio dealing with things while the women are in the background. I just wish TPTB would be brave enough to trust that the fanbase wants character development, even over action in some eps, and we all won't go running for the hills because there was more talk and less bullets flying. Nice post, i enjoyed seeing everyone else's opinion.

[toasteronfire.livejournal.com]

Well, you managed to sum up my thoughts and hopes regarding McKay/Weir perfectly, so I'll just leave it at that.

And I'm also a tad irked at the "So Doing It" attitude prevalent in Shep/Weir. It's always made me think, "Yeah? And then what?" Sex is great and all, but where do you go after that? I really liked Rodney and Elizabeth because from the start they seemed to have a nice friendship, something to build on.

But I think that the Shep/Weir shippers are catching up and developing/deepening the S/W relationship. It helps that there have been plenty of S/W scenes to play with this season, but where did the M/W scenes go? Makes me crabby. Ah well.

And I steered this thread from Teyla to shipping. And the ships don't even feature Teyla! My bad. :)

[burntcopper.livejournal.com]

I'm sitting here going 'whu?' to a lot of responses. Mind you, I'm coming from the slash side of fandom, and there appears to be a *lot* more John/Rodney than there is, say, John/Elizabeth being written - and that's just going by the SGA newsletter. There's more onscreen, for starters, and the last few episodes have concentrated a lot on the John-Rodney relationship - trust issues and so on.

Over in the slash sector of the fandom, as well as all-fic like sga_flashfic, from what I've seen of the fic - I mostly connect through fic rather'n discussion - I'd have said that most of the fen love Teyla, and write her as dry-witted and fun. I haven't seen any Teyla hate. There's even been pointing out how practical her outfits are when it comes to fighting. As someone who's recently come over to the side of skirts, I'd say that skirts in the fashion that Teyla wears for stick fighting are much better to move fast and flexibly in than combat trousers. It's very difficult to kick someone in the face wearing combat trousers unless they fit perfectly.

And I like her recently expanded role as diplomat, so I just hope they keep going with it.

[tielan]

Possibly it depends on where you hang out.

The f-lists, communities, and mailing lists I read tend to gen and het rather than slash.

And, I suspect, Teyla's not in any danger of 'stealing' Sheppard from McKay (an implied complaint of certain Jack/Daniel fen regarding Sam), so she's 'okay'. As long as she doesn't start getting more scene time, otherwise I imagine she'll crash and burn among the Shep/McKays in much the same way as Shep/Weirs.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

Hi, I came this way via the SGA Newsletter. I'm going to apologize now for this being a long post.

I read your post about Teyla with great interest, mostly because it's one of the few I've read that actually had some substance to it (as did the comments that followed).

As a latecomer to the Atlantis party (and one whose brain is now swamped with plot bunnies), I was surprised by the amount of Teyla antipathy. A person on my flist pointed out some of the nasty stuff that people were saying about the character (and sometimes the actress) and it hurt. It hurt because on so many levels it was women tearing into other women - as another poster pointed out - and that just feels so wrong.

What bothers me the most about people's reaction to Teyla is the lack of introspection about who she is as

a) an Athosian woman. She's someone who comes from a culture very different that our own in a galaxy that we're lost in. I rewatched "Rising" recently and it really jumped out to me how contemptuous Sumner was towards the Athosians. At best, the new Atlantians were very poor guests in the Athosian camp (except for John who had sense enough to figure out that maybe a personal approach was the way to go). At worst, the culturally smug with a people who'd survived in a very nasty galaxy. The Athosians have travelled through the gate for years. They know the neighborhood. We'd been doing it for what, eight or nine?

As far as Teyla's clothing goes, why wouldn't she wear what she wears when she spars? If that's an appropriate costume for what she's doing, then why the judging? And she consistently kicks everyone's asses while wearing said costume. Teyla leads her people. She may be young for the job but there's a reason why they do follow her.

b) someone who is partially assimilated. I have yet to read a fic where there is any real fallout from Teyla's decision to stay in Atlantis. You get a sense of the conflict between Teyla and the rest of her people in "Suspicion" but no follow-up. I've seen some fics where they touch on Teyla being, in fact, an exile and taking up the ways of the Atlantians. But we never see the personal cost of that decision. What has she given up by throwing her lot (and by extension, her peoples since they are now dependent on the good folks in Atlantis to let them go through the gate and yeah, they made a conscious decision about that) in with the newcomers?

c) someone who is very well capable of being in a meaningful relationship if that's what she chooses. Maybe it's my wishfulthinking!Teyla but I see her as someone who is well aware of who she is attracted to and that there's room in her life for both casual and long term commitments to one or more people; do we know what the standard configuration of Athosian relationships are? Given their lives under the Wraith, being in a multipartner relationship (with various sexual configurations) would make a whole lot of sense to me.

And I think you can make some of the same arguments for Elizabeth.

Since Atlantis is followed up by BSG, it becomes glaring how poorly written Teyla and Elizabeth are for most of the time. It makes it hard to watch the actors try to put more life into scripts that leave them with little to use. I want Teyla and Elizabeth to bond, hang out, drink beers or whatever it is that women do on Friday night in the Pegasus galaxy and this doesn't have to be at the expese of the male characters; it just means putting them on an equal footing. And yes, at the urging of a friend I actually started a story just like this. Yow.

This is not to tear down people's shippiness or fic preferences. When I got back into fandom after many years away, I was amazed at the directions fandom had gone and I really think there's room for all of us here. Thanks for such a good discussion.

[vardoger.livejournal.com]

I like Teyla. I didn't at first, but she's won me over; mainly because I initially dismissed her as a stereotyped Amazon (not fair, maybe, but TV so often delivers on the stereotypes, so...) but when I actually sat down and watched her she emerged as someone who is... I dunno, conscious of herself to a degree that I didn't expect. I feel like there's the Teyla that kicks ass, and then there's the Teyla that sits in the back of her head and processes everything and pays attention to what people say and what they mean and how they differ and how she can interact with that. Not manipulative, really, just hyperaware of herself and her environment (social or otherwise) in a meta-level way that's totally right for an informally trained but very smart explorer and diplomat.

[tielan]

No need to apologise for the post. It is interesting to hear other people's opinion on the matter. (And to know that I'm not the only one thinking that the backlash is disproportionate to anything that the character's done.

And no, the girls of Atlantis aren't very well-written (they're not explored or given much to work with). Unfortunately, the same trend exists in fanfic.

[tielan]

One of the things about television is that it very much full of stereotypes. You can take the roles played by everyone in SG-1 and lay them over characters in Atlantis.

And yeah, Teyla might have started out as a stereotype, but she's got a lot of potential as a character...now if they'd only use it...

Teyla - wasted.

[cricketk.livejournal.com]

My biggest issue is how they almost completely wasted her for the majority of the first season. They really should have been reflecting Elizabeth and Teyla back at each other. They're both female leaders of trapped and abandoned peoples. Elizabeth and the Atlantis crew need Teyla's knowledge and network of friends through the galaxy. Teyla's people don't really need to stay on or near Atlantis, but it is reasonable for them to look to the Atlantis expedition for a modicum of protection - especially since they know that the Wraith are waking up all across the galaxy.

I wish, most of all, that she hadn't become a member of John's team. In the hierarchy I would have chosen for Atlantis, Elizabeth and Teyla would be holding similar positions. I want Elizabeth to be able to have a friend who understands the greater part of her situation and the need for political willand political action. John has not grown into that person yet, Caldwell is tussling for control, Rodney is way too self-absorbed most of the time, Carson is too giving and forgiving. Radek has possibility... but not yet.

Teyla is the one person who could really understand Elizabeth, and the one person who was removed enough from the Atlantis command structure to actually be a confidant - or even not be a confidant. Both of these women are skilled enough at negotiation and reading through the lines that friendly interactions between them could be absolutely fascinating - and they would both come away with much more knowledge than the words that had been spoken.

So - I thought that there were great opportunities to use the Teyla character in a multitude of ways, particularly in relation to Elizabeth and her position of power. I was so disappointed when they gave her the stoic-alien role. I'm hoping that Ronon will have that for a while now and we'll get to see more of Teyla doing some of the other stuff she's good at - not just stick fighting, but leading, negotiating for trade, negotiating with Atlantis and making poeple happier.

I like Teyla, I just think it's taking the writers a long time to figure out what to do with her.

Re: Teyla - wasted.

[tielan]

You have some very good points! And a fascinating insight into what could have been.

Unfortunately, the writers of Atlantis aren't particularly good with the female characters. :(

[gate-girl.livejournal.com]

Hear hear. When you look around at other ensemble shows that are either airing now or have aired fairly recently, you see that there are so many strong female characters - Sam included - and it makes the lack of attention to the Atlantis women seem so obvious.

I think we were particularly lucky in SG-1, that AT was both a strong personality and a good actress and stood up to the PTB. Otherwise, we might have had the Jack-and-Daniel-pony-show in SG-1.

Oh god yes. It was bad enough as it was. As much as I love both Jack and Daniel as characters, there were times when I longed to smash some heads against the wall in order to make them see they had two great characters - and two wonderful actors - being completely wasted. That's also what I think is happening with the girls on Atlantis - I don't know whether they can't think of any good storylines to write for Teyla or Liz, or whether they just don't know HOW to write them, and so they focus the action on Shepherd, McKay et al.

They really should think about hiring some fic writers out there to give them some clues...

[tielan]

I think it's a combination of not knowing what to write and not knowing how to write them.

Basically, they're falling into the trap of thinking of them as 'women' and therefore different. AT overcame this in SG-1 by telling the writers to just write for her character like she was a guy and she'd do the rest.

I think they need at least one regular woman writer on the writing crew: and possibly a few more newbies, because the Stargate TPTB have shown themselves more than capable of bad 'groupthink' outcomes before.

[medie]

well, my dislike of Teyla actually had bupkis to do with my ship leanings, more for a couple of other reasons.

In the first half of Season 1 she screamed "Alien Barbie Here For Manly Human Sexin'" and it just drove me *insane*. I tried to ignore her as much as possible and if it did relate to my 'ship interests in anyway it was to drive me away from anything to do with Sheppard/Teyla and straight toward Sheppard/Weir and Sheppard/McKay. Basically Sheppard/Anyone Who Wasn't Teyla. (Completely leaving out the shocking lack of chemistry with Joe & Rachel)

On the character front, they made the same mistakes with Teyla they did with Sam. In that they tried *too* hard to make people like her. It was like "SEE?! She's HOT! She fights! She's brilliant! She's a strong leader! She leaps tall buildings in a single bound and breaks wind which smells like roses!" It harkened right back to very early Sam for me and it's always a stumbling block. I had to get around it to get anywhere near liking Sam and I had to get around it to get anywhere liking Teyla.

I found, though, with the second half of Season 1 they forgot to try so hard and damned if I didn't end up liking her. A friend and I were discussing it on Livejournal. It seems, with some of their female characters (especially) the writers of Stargate are so damned determined to make you like the character that they beat you over the head with them until the sight of them makes you cringe. It's like they have an inability to trust us to like these characters on our own and inadvertantly, they end up creating the very thing they're trying to avoid. Widespread hate of the character.

The way they're writing Teyla lately...she's a lot more comfortable and natural and hasn't made me cringe once. I'm well on my way to adoring the character in truth. She's interesting, they handled this connection with the Wraith thing *VERY* well and I actually look forward to seeing her now.

To say nothing of the mad crazy Ronon chemistry. *fans self*

Ahem. Anyway, sorry to ramble :-p I suppose it goes without saying I found my way here from the newsletter *G*

[tielan]

To be honest, the rant began general but got a bit more specific regarding the way certain people or groups of people trash Teyla anytime the character comes up.

And yes, a large part of it is writing. TPTB aren't real good with women characters, and it shows.

[amalthia]

Initially I didn't care for Teyla as a character because I felt the writers put her in the show because she's pretty and they figured the guys won't watch if there wasn't at least one youngish, hot warrior woman they could dress in skimpy outfits and possibly she'd fall in love with the hero. I think the writers didn't really have a plan when they made her character, or Ford's for that matter.

my husband and I complained about the speeches. Weir and Teyla I think gave a lot of speeches in season 1. Teyla grew on me after a while. I understand why she's in the show (for the fanboys)

I hope they don't get into shipper direction, the writers can't write romance. They can't. The whole Sam/Jack thing is a prime example. And really after seeing Firefly, BSG, Farscape, and Buffy and Angel...(those writers knew how to write a ship) I just can't visualize them not fucking it up.

Anyway, if it weren't for BSG it wouldn't be as glaringly obvious how poorly used the women are used in SGA...but since Rodney and Sheppard are my two favorite characters...I'm not dissapointed that I get to see them a lot.

Though, I have the feeling if the writers for BSG were writing for SGA all the characters would be more interesting. :)

Or maybe they can find the writers for Farscape. I mean the John/Areyn ship started in the first episode and carried through until the last in a believable manner, that made me cry and laugh for them. I mean I've never seen a relationship on TV done that well and as much as I'd love to see John/Weir get together...I'd rather they not try than bungle the job. I don't have confidence in the writers.

As for the character bashing of Teyla I think it's juvenile. I think for what the actress has been given she's doing the best she can.