question

[tielan]

When my right to participate in fandom without encountering bigotry clashes with your right to have fun in fandom without having to moderate yourself...who wins? And why?

Comments

[beanie-j.livejournal.com]

Does no-one wins qualify as a decent answer to this age-old circular argument about freedom of speech?

Should people have to tolerate bigotry? Definitely not. Do we have the right to tell others how to conduct their affairs, even when they are being bigoted? No, not really. We can but try to educate, but only those who want to be educated will be receptive.

The most powerful freedom everyone has is not the freedom of speech. It's the freedom not to listen.

[heimedall.livejournal.com]

Well said!

[tv-elf.livejournal.com]

I couldn't have said it better.

[tielan]

I guess it does. I don't like it, but it does.

Although the "freedom not to listen" brings up a thought I've been contemplating about the increasing refusal of people - in fandom and out - to hear out, let alone give any credence to an opinion that disagrees with their own, and the subsequent creation of cliques of "safe spaces" where people can happily bounce about without encountering anyone who challenges their preconceived ideas.

[blade-girl.livejournal.com]

Something that has always puzzled me about internet interactions is the refusal of people to accept that someone else perceiving something differently from them doesn't necessarily make them stupid, ignorant, evil, or wrong. Most of the people I run into online who have passionate opinions can't step back from them enough to have the kind of conversation you're talking about. There's no ability - or maybe it's just a lack of willingness? - to put aside the emotion long enough to look rationally at what the other person is saying.

I've had conversations in which I was deliberately dispassionate because I knew it was a hot-button topic, and the other person couldn't stop reacting emotionally because they disagreed with my opinion. Nothing is accomplished in such a situation. It takes two people to have a discussion, and that means they both have to be willing to set aside the emotions.

BTW, none of this relates to you specifically - I have no clue what situation precipitated your post. :) Just relating some stuff from my own online experiences.

[beanie-j.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying no-one winning is a good thing, because it isn't. I don't like it much either, but then, unlike POC calling out racism, I get scant support when I decide to call people on bigotry regarding mental health. Because, you know, it's 'imagined' - that is how ingrained it is with some people. As a result, I've learnt largely to keep my mouth shut and keep walking.

I don't think there is any big mystery to the 'safe spaces' thing. I'm not sure it's just that people don't want to be challenged on their ideas, more they are tired of any such challenge turning into a shit-slinging match. Let's be honest, when does fandom at large discuss anything with a modicum of civility?

[tielan]

Because, you know, it's 'imagined' - that is how ingrained it is with some people.

Is that the *wince* "Tom Cruise-slash-Scientology" theory of mental health?

[beanie-j.livejournal.com]

I wish it were just that, but sadly, it's not. It's a common societal problem.

I can only think of one piece of reading matter off the top of my head, regarding the justice system in the UK, which is a PDF and you can find HERE (http://www.mind.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/A000B238-4E7E-46E3-8735-3C5E6038EBA5/0/Anotherassault.pdf).

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

I dont think 'safe space' equates with a lack of challenge to "preconceived ideas." I really dont know where that idea comes from? I think in fact that safe space can be necessary to have a certain level of discussion, where the discussion isnt diverted into remediation or other wise taken off the track.

[tielan]

I agree that 'safe space' shouldn't equate to 'not being challenged' - hence my use of the inverted commas to describe cliques.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

gotcha.

[ryf.livejournal.com]

Well, in my opinion both of those aren't rights, so noone wins.

Fandom is fucking stupid.

[tielan]

Fandom is fucking stupid.

Amen to that!

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

No one. I've always maintained two things about fandom, I can "ruin" fun to point out bigotry and bad grammar/spelling.

[tielan]

I can "ruin" fun to point out bigotry and bad grammar/spelling.

Huh, yeah. And the reactions are generally the same, outrage, sulking, and whining at your 'meanness'.

[beanie-j.livejournal.com]

Does no-one wins qualify as a decent answer to this age-old circular argument about freedom of speech?

Should people have to tolerate bigotry? Definitely not. Do we have the right to tell others how to conduct their affairs, even when they are being bigoted? No, not really. We can but try to educate, but only those who want to be educated will be receptive.

The most powerful freedom everyone has is not the freedom of speech. It's the freedom not to listen.

[heimedall.livejournal.com]

Well said!

[tv-elf.livejournal.com]

I couldn't have said it better.

[tielan]

I guess it does. I don't like it, but it does.

Although the "freedom not to listen" brings up a thought I've been contemplating about the increasing refusal of people - in fandom and out - to hear out, let alone give any credence to an opinion that disagrees with their own, and the subsequent creation of cliques of "safe spaces" where people can happily bounce about without encountering anyone who challenges their preconceived ideas.

[blade-girl.livejournal.com]

Something that has always puzzled me about internet interactions is the refusal of people to accept that someone else perceiving something differently from them doesn't necessarily make them stupid, ignorant, evil, or wrong. Most of the people I run into online who have passionate opinions can't step back from them enough to have the kind of conversation you're talking about. There's no ability - or maybe it's just a lack of willingness? - to put aside the emotion long enough to look rationally at what the other person is saying.

I've had conversations in which I was deliberately dispassionate because I knew it was a hot-button topic, and the other person couldn't stop reacting emotionally because they disagreed with my opinion. Nothing is accomplished in such a situation. It takes two people to have a discussion, and that means they both have to be willing to set aside the emotions.

BTW, none of this relates to you specifically - I have no clue what situation precipitated your post. :) Just relating some stuff from my own online experiences.

[beanie-j.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying no-one winning is a good thing, because it isn't. I don't like it much either, but then, unlike POC calling out racism, I get scant support when I decide to call people on bigotry regarding mental health. Because, you know, it's 'imagined' - that is how ingrained it is with some people. As a result, I've learnt largely to keep my mouth shut and keep walking.

I don't think there is any big mystery to the 'safe spaces' thing. I'm not sure it's just that people don't want to be challenged on their ideas, more they are tired of any such challenge turning into a shit-slinging match. Let's be honest, when does fandom at large discuss anything with a modicum of civility?

[tielan]

Because, you know, it's 'imagined' - that is how ingrained it is with some people.

Is that the *wince* "Tom Cruise-slash-Scientology" theory of mental health?

[beanie-j.livejournal.com]

I wish it were just that, but sadly, it's not. It's a common societal problem.

I can only think of one piece of reading matter off the top of my head, regarding the justice system in the UK, which is a PDF and you can find HERE (http://www.mind.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/A000B238-4E7E-46E3-8735-3C5E6038EBA5/0/Anotherassault.pdf).

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

I dont think 'safe space' equates with a lack of challenge to "preconceived ideas." I really dont know where that idea comes from? I think in fact that safe space can be necessary to have a certain level of discussion, where the discussion isnt diverted into remediation or other wise taken off the track.

[tielan]

I agree that 'safe space' shouldn't equate to 'not being challenged' - hence my use of the inverted commas to describe cliques.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

gotcha.

[ryf.livejournal.com]

Well, in my opinion both of those aren't rights, so noone wins.

Fandom is fucking stupid.

[tielan]

Fandom is fucking stupid.

Amen to that!

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

No one. I've always maintained two things about fandom, I can "ruin" fun to point out bigotry and bad grammar/spelling.

[tielan]

I can "ruin" fun to point out bigotry and bad grammar/spelling.

Huh, yeah. And the reactions are generally the same, outrage, sulking, and whining at your 'meanness'.