considerations

[tielan]

There's not much you can really do in a fandom where most of the fans seem to think your favourite character is incompetent, unobservant, and incapable of doing anything useful or worthwhile and, moreover, write her that way.

Comments

[roguish-angel.livejournal.com]

Who? Teyla?

That part of fandom really pisses me off

[saeva.livejournal.com]

Oh, dear. You didn't go reading the gen ficathon entries, did you? Just from the "summaries" that can only end in tears.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

Is it something that's gonna make me want to hit people with my sticks?

[tielan]

In a word... Yes.

In two words... Yes, probably.

[tielan]

Now that's a discouraging attitude towards the genficathon.

[tielan]

Bingo! Right first guess!

Teyla Emmagan, the useless coloured primitive female of Atlantis. So saith the fandom.

And they are never wrong.

[roguish-angel.livejournal.com]

and thus the reason I now stay firmly put in my corner of the fandom and hardly ever venture outside it. I cringe to read Joe's mailbag for fear of reading yet another moronic comment, made by some idiot who's ticked off because their 'ship isn't canon or the character they liked the most got booted from the show and so they feel the need to attack the other characters. Teyla copes the most of this because she's the only strong female 'lead' and not 'thunked' etc

Don't get me started on Gatewank

I love the show and the JT fandom but most of the other parts of the fandom can go jump as far as I'm concerned

:-)

[tielan]

Most of the time, I don't go into "mainstream" fandom. Their interest in Teyla is like my interest in Rodney-the-amazing or Elizabeth-the-perfect - and John's abject adoration for one, the other, or both: non-existent.

However, I still come across regular incidences of the complete non-entity-ing of Teyla in fanfic.

[chyti.livejournal.com]

when someone goes out of the way to hate on someone else then that person must be doing something right. besides i hate following the masses i loved moving to my own beat.

just chalk it up to frustration and jealously and keep doing what you are doing to get them mad.

[bittybye2000.livejournal.com]

What you can do is mock them.

Teyla might come from a (relatively) primitive world, but she is smart and tough. She knows Pegasus as very well, and if the show doesn't show that it just because the writers don't utilize it.
She is far from incompetent as we have seen her using Earth based technology. Add to that that both Elizabeth and John have put her in charge of the city at least twice, and I doubt very much that either of them would do so if she was incompetent.
As for unobservant, she lived in Pegasus all her life, to survive she needed to be observant. She might have been able to sense the Wraith but she was both leader and Warrior she still needed to be observant. As a leader she needed to observe others, gauge their reaction, tell if they were honest. And as a warrior she would need to be able to judge her opponent. No doubt people use the Genii incident against her, but can we remember that it took a Ancient scanner to see that something wasn't quite right.

Sorry to go off on a small rant, but I'm getting tired of character bashing. Especially when it's a woman and there is cannon evidence to the contrary, that the basher just seems to ignore.

[roguish-angel.livejournal.com]

Ooo! I hate that too, I almost blew my stack when I once read a fic that was labelled as a 'team' fic and yet Teyla was barely mentioned!

And I don't understand the Teyla hate?! I could understand Rodney hate, cos lets face it, he is annoying as all hell (god love him) or the Elizabeth love, half the time for a world class negotiator she always seemed to get them into more trouble and the other half all she did was pout!

[wneleh.livejournal.com]

As always, I'm really sad that you feel this way. Probably because I'm a McShep fan, I find SGA fandom a pretty neat place, and I wish it could be for everyone.

Just FTR, I certainly don't think Teyla is incompetent, unobservant, or incapable of doing anything useful!

- Helen

[azure-horizon.livejournal.com]

I second your thesis on Elizabeth. NOT my favourite character.

[mahoni.livejournal.com]

incompetent, unobservant, and incapable of doing anything useful or worthwhile

Ah, see, they must be watching that other Stargate Atlantis show. Because they're definitely not watching the one I'm watching.

*sits them all down, puts in "Aurora," and plays the bits where Teyla bluffs Caldwell over and over and over and over....*

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

*sits them all down, puts in "Aurora," and plays the bits where Teyla bluffs Caldwell over and over and over and over....*

Or:

"Epiphany" - where Rodney picks Teyla to go back to the ship to go over his plan and she knows exactly what to do

"Phantoms" - executing the remainder of Rodney's plan in the cave

"Tabula Rasa" - helping amnesiac!Rodney finish yet another plan. Heck, he even left himself a note to find her.

I could keep going but I have to go to work.

[mahoni.livejournal.com]

We should make a list of the episodes in which Teyla is her awesome competent, observant and capable self.

Of course, this is the fandom that saw "Outcast" as an illustration of how superfantastically powerful John and Rodney's friendship is and apparently didn't even notice Ronon was in the ep, so I'm not sure how much good it would do...

[saeva.livejournal.com]

I was just talking about this the other day. For all the "friendship" that the John-Rodney people seem to insist on, I see John mocking or otherwise insulting Rodney on a nearly constant basis, underappreciating what he does contribute or taking it for granted, and hanging out with Ronon when he wants to pal around (all the movie references, Sunday, the series of sparring scenes).

For proof I provide, again, Sunday and the Sheppard-Mitchell scene with the lemon, just to start with.

But, no, John and Rodney's friendship is a deep and powerful thing that has no belittling of a character that has proven to be deeply insecure despite his bravado again and again.

... I think I'll go rewatch the pilot, in which Teyla tells Sumner and co. that they don't trade with strangers, oh and also uses advanced technology herself -- if only in the form of an advanced lighter.

[ryf.livejournal.com]

I haven't yet read them, but did a search for "Teyla" in the two that are not on Teyla & Ronon. Not looking so good in the Teyla-department.

[mahoni.livejournal.com]

I can see where John and Rodney are 'friends,' but on a very particular level. To me it seems to have very little to do with actually liking one another or understanding one another, and more to do with having to depend on each other for their lives and stretching reeeeeally far to find occasional common ground (like geekiness r.e. things like knowledge of Batman and Hitchhikers Guide and...that's all I can come up with off the top of my head, actually. Even that role-playing video game thing struck me more as competitiveness rather than an interest in spending time together).

And I like that about their relationship, by the way, that there's so much abrasiveness and snark. I mean, I'm one of those weird people who doesn't think sex is the only way to illustrate and express deep caring and love between characters; similarly, I also don't think friendship is necessary to validate loyalty and devotion and whatnot between people who face harrowing danger together on a regular basis. You know?

And I don't even think John actively dislikes Rodney; they just aren't 'friends' in the usual sense of the word.

On the other hand, John really is friends with Ronon. Their friendship is built on having things in common and actually liking each other. Similarly, Teyla and John have a very comfortable, easy friendship, too. They may not be buddies like John and Ronon, but they sincerely like each other, too, regardless of conflicts; and Teyla can even occasionally get John to say things from the heart that he'd never say to anyone else.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

That's why we stay in our corner and only pop our heads out to wank. Besides 99.99% of any type of fanfic is going to suck, "popular" or not.

Part One

[saeva.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to find where I explained what I meant the other day --

Essentially, I agree with you. In practice, I don't think John actually likes Rodney and his increasingly abrasive behavior shows it. Oh, here, I found it. This is totally copypasta'ed

I don't think Rodney's projecting a lot of the time and when he is, he's mostly projecting bravado he doesn't feel in order to get respect. See his actions in Hide And Seek and the progression of how John goaded him by insulting his bravery. So, Ithink Rodney's honestly that insecure, and by making John's actions towards women seem ridiculous, it makes him feel better. It's not dissimilar to his reaction to "Rod."

Rodney is very insecure, so it's not terribly surprising. He knows he's bad at the people thing and he knows people value people who aren't bad at the people thing. And John likes to dig the knife in just because he can. It always makes me wonder at John/Rodney shippers: "Why do you want to put Rodney in an abusive relationship? I'm not even a big fan of him and I don't." I mean, John's behavior towards Rodney, in canon, has gotten increasingly vicious as time goes on. I'm willing to believe it started out as John treating Rodney like a "buddy," and in John's world, buddies are guys who you roughhouse with and play pranks on. But once Rodney reacted badly to that -- by not understanding the "joke" -- it's almost like John got offended and now has fits of wanting to say "If you thought that was something to cry about... I'll give you something to cry about." And that's about when the hitting, outright mocking, and things like telling Rodney he loses all his hair in old age started.

Which isn't to say I think John *doesn't* value Rodney as a team member. He definitely does. He values Rodney's expertise and respects him on a professional level. But especially once Ronon came onto the scene and actually played along with John's concept of what guy friends should be like, Rodney became sort of unnecessary in that function -- Aiden couldn't fill that function because, unlike Ronon, he *was* directly in John's chain of command. Yes, John is leader of the team but there's no outside hierarchy judging them and what their relationship (as in the case of Aiden and John, as different levels of officers) can be like. So, Ronon's the guy he hangs out and drinks beer with, watches movies with, even talks women with to a degree.

In the last two seasons, John and Rodney hanging out consists almost entirely of either a) group activities, b) mechanical activities, or c) John being vicious at Rodney until Rodney breaks. The only exception we've sort of seen to this is in The Game and look at how John treats Rodney's "game" choices. So, yeah. They hang out and geek over engines, something he can't do with Ronon (or Teyla). But if he wants to just hang like buddies, he goes to Ronon. And if he wants calm relaxing time, he seems to seek out Teyla, but he doesn't really "hang" with Teyla either -- nor does he judge her for rejecting his "buddy" behavior. Her scolding him doesn't register the same way Rodney's back going up does, probably partially because she doesn't take the bait and partially because she's a woman and thus can be a friend but not a "buddy."

Usually this is the point people get defensive, go "Not uh!" and if I don't shut up they say "I don't want to talk about this."

But, I mean, things like giving the lemon to Cameron Mitchell? That's not fun teasing. That's not even "boys will be boys and that means complete asshats to each other" teasing. Ronon's "What, you scared?" when he makes John do ridiculous Satedan fighting exercises? That's teasing. -- not that the exercises are ridiculous, but Ronon knows John will *feel* ridiculous doing them. But if I point out the whole John's behavior is vicious thing, people tend to act like it's a personal slight against them.

[Too long for one comment!]

Part Two

[saeva.livejournal.com]

-- That's the paste, with a few edits, and there's more to that whole conversation. Mostly that John's the cool kid and for people who identify deeply with Rodney they're like Rodney -- willing to be humiliated to be in the cool kid's graces. So, either they have to humiliate Rodney (like canon does) or they have to tone down John's behavior significantly. Mostly, in fic, especially John/Rodney fic, I see the latter and so I see a lot of that as being out of character (or at least, not explained well enough to justify the character shift).

So, yeah, basically I agree with you. I don't think they like each other AND I don't think John actively dislikes Rodney. But John's something of an asshole (however fond I might be of him) and so he gets the jab in because he can and that makes up a significant part of their non-professional relationship.

Re: Part Two

[mahoni.livejournal.com]

Admittedly I don't see John's behavior as vicious...but, um, I think that may be because while I am so not one of the cool kids and thus can't identify with John that way, I do identify with the whole Rodney-getting-on-that-one-last-nerve thing. I love Rodney as a character, and part of that is the fact that he's so annoying; but even when John's jokes are dumb and sort of tasteless (the lemon thing) I'm still sitting here thinking, wow, if I had to work with Rodney it would be amazing if I could even be that nice.

Which is not to say that I admire it when John takes cheap shots at Rodney. But oh my god, I totally empathize.

But incidentally, going back to the awesomenss of Teyla, the Rodney relationship I like best on the show is Rodney and Teyla. (Friendship-wise, not romance-wise.) The way Teyla handles him...on one hand, I admire it because I couldn't be that patient with someone of his personality in a million years. On the other hand I find myself liking Rodney a lot more when he's dealing with Teyla. Watching John, and to an extent Ronon, interact with Rodney sort of heightens my 'OMG YES he's so annoying isn't he!' reaction; but watching Teyla, I tend to see more of Rodney's positive qualities. I think this is because Teyla tends to focus on those qualities in people. Not that she won't call bullshit or recognize when someone is an asshole or evil or whatnot; just that when she believes a in a person for whatever reason, she'll focus on the positive and be encouraging. Also, she's really good at redirecting Rodney's hysterics and discombobulation, his fear and insecurity and defensiveness, rather than making it worse like John does.

[tielan]

Yes, but the 'someone else' is a fictional character here.

Honestly, I wouldn't hate on any of the characters. "Less interesting" I understand. There are characters I don't write because they don't hold as much interest for me.

However, I would never write them into a story specifically as useless and incompetent - simply because they're not. Even if they're shown a certain way on the show, sheer practicality says that there has to be more to them.

There's got to be more to Rodney than Saving The Day ability for him to be liked. People who behave like him at his most assholish aren't tolerated at a really high level - even the brilliant ones.

Re: Part Two

[tielan]

watching Teyla, I tend to see more of Rodney's positive qualities.

YES. EXACTLY! I love how in all the episodes where the two of them work together, Teyla redirects Rodney's energies, or does the things that Rodney can't do.

Although they never explicitly show what Rodney does for Teyla, I suspect that Rodney, in turn, challenges Teyla to be more than her people are technologically. And the thing is that, for Teyla, I can see him not doing it with a sneer. He'd just assume she was intelligent enough to keep up with him - he'd give her the benefit of that doubt.