considerations

[tielan]

There's not much you can really do in a fandom where most of the fans seem to think your favourite character is incompetent, unobservant, and incapable of doing anything useful or worthwhile and, moreover, write her that way.

Comments

[roguish-angel.livejournal.com]

Who? Teyla?

That part of fandom really pisses me off

[tielan]

Bingo! Right first guess!

Teyla Emmagan, the useless coloured primitive female of Atlantis. So saith the fandom.

And they are never wrong.

[saeva.livejournal.com]

Oh, dear. You didn't go reading the gen ficathon entries, did you? Just from the "summaries" that can only end in tears.

[tielan]

Now that's a discouraging attitude towards the genficathon.

[ryf.livejournal.com]

I haven't yet read them, but did a search for "Teyla" in the two that are not on Teyla & Ronon. Not looking so good in the Teyla-department.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

Is it something that's gonna make me want to hit people with my sticks?

[tielan]

In a word... Yes.

In two words... Yes, probably.

[chyti.livejournal.com]

when someone goes out of the way to hate on someone else then that person must be doing something right. besides i hate following the masses i loved moving to my own beat.

just chalk it up to frustration and jealously and keep doing what you are doing to get them mad.

[tielan]

Yes, but the 'someone else' is a fictional character here.

Honestly, I wouldn't hate on any of the characters. "Less interesting" I understand. There are characters I don't write because they don't hold as much interest for me.

However, I would never write them into a story specifically as useless and incompetent - simply because they're not. Even if they're shown a certain way on the show, sheer practicality says that there has to be more to them.

There's got to be more to Rodney than Saving The Day ability for him to be liked. People who behave like him at his most assholish aren't tolerated at a really high level - even the brilliant ones.

[bittybye2000.livejournal.com]

What you can do is mock them.

Teyla might come from a (relatively) primitive world, but she is smart and tough. She knows Pegasus as very well, and if the show doesn't show that it just because the writers don't utilize it.
She is far from incompetent as we have seen her using Earth based technology. Add to that that both Elizabeth and John have put her in charge of the city at least twice, and I doubt very much that either of them would do so if she was incompetent.
As for unobservant, she lived in Pegasus all her life, to survive she needed to be observant. She might have been able to sense the Wraith but she was both leader and Warrior she still needed to be observant. As a leader she needed to observe others, gauge their reaction, tell if they were honest. And as a warrior she would need to be able to judge her opponent. No doubt people use the Genii incident against her, but can we remember that it took a Ancient scanner to see that something wasn't quite right.

Sorry to go off on a small rant, but I'm getting tired of character bashing. Especially when it's a woman and there is cannon evidence to the contrary, that the basher just seems to ignore.

[tielan]

Especially when it's a woman and there is cannon evidence to the contrary, that the basher just seems to ignore.

Ah, but women exist to be bashed by men and other women, don'tcha know? It's all we're good for, filthy va-ja-jays! The mighty cock is the bringer of all spooge wisdom! Bow down before it!

I'll grant that the women in Stargates are more often "described" rather than "shown". Elizabeth is said to be a good negotiator and high-ranking, but she only successfully brokers one situation in the show - the Genii bomb in Siege II - and, as someone pointed out to me the other week, any woman who behaves as flirtatiously as Elizabeth did in the series would never have gotten to her position in the real world. Or would have been considered a joke by those around her.

Which, for the first time, helps me understand how people might prefer the Jessica Steen version of Elizabeth Weir to the Torri Higginson one.

However, Teyla's been shown in combat situations, in relational situations, even in technological situations. She's been willing to blow off newcomers to her planet who weren't willing to be polite, and learned Earth ways and manners within mere months of joining the expedition. She's lied to commanding officers for the sake of her team, taken in the state of technological work in a single glance, and refocused a panicking, amnesiac Rodney on the work at hand.

These things are no sinecure.

And yet people come up with statements like, "I don't see why Teyla would be considered essential personnel on the city."

Rant all you like. There just aren't enough places to go on about how awesome Teyla is. And certainly not enough people who'll answer you back.

[wneleh.livejournal.com]

As always, I'm really sad that you feel this way. Probably because I'm a McShep fan, I find SGA fandom a pretty neat place, and I wish it could be for everyone.

Just FTR, I certainly don't think Teyla is incompetent, unobservant, or incapable of doing anything useful!

- Helen

[tielan]

It's not the dislike that bugs me.

What bugs me is people who write sensible characters stupid, or who eliminate characters for no reason other than because 'they don't want to write them', or who can't see the facts of a character through their prejudice.

Teyla's a competent, capable person, with a knowledge of people, societies, customs, and who can usually defend herself in a fight. She's respected by John, Rodney, Elizabeth, Ronon, Carson, Lorne, and Zelenka - at least. At some stage in the four-season narrative, it's implied that she's friends with John, Ronon, Elizabeth, Heightmeyer, and Keller, as well as other personnel on the base. Not one of the people mentioned by name is stupid, condescending, or mean to her in the course of their regular interactions.

Prejudice is to be expected; twisting the facts for the convenience of making a character the butt end of a story, or to make the Favoured Character shine brighter is contemptible.

[mahoni.livejournal.com]

incompetent, unobservant, and incapable of doing anything useful or worthwhile

Ah, see, they must be watching that other Stargate Atlantis show. Because they're definitely not watching the one I'm watching.

*sits them all down, puts in "Aurora," and plays the bits where Teyla bluffs Caldwell over and over and over and over....*

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

*sits them all down, puts in "Aurora," and plays the bits where Teyla bluffs Caldwell over and over and over and over....*

Or:

"Epiphany" - where Rodney picks Teyla to go back to the ship to go over his plan and she knows exactly what to do

"Phantoms" - executing the remainder of Rodney's plan in the cave

"Tabula Rasa" - helping amnesiac!Rodney finish yet another plan. Heck, he even left himself a note to find her.

I could keep going but I have to go to work.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

That's why we stay in our corner and only pop our heads out to wank. Besides 99.99% of any type of fanfic is going to suck, "popular" or not.

[tielan]

Yes, well, I wasn't expecting roses, and the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. But it would have been nice to find something where Teyla isn't portrayed as a complete incompetent, to the point that someone points out that if Teyla was smart, she would have seen that one coming.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I'm awfully sorry that you've been running into character-bashing lately! I haven't personally seen it, but I know what an unpleasant feeling it is -- I've been in some fandoms where my favorite characters have been outright reviled (ha, like the one anime fandom in which I never found a single fic with a sympathetic portrayal of my favorite character, not even one!).

But I also think that SGA fandom is very open to good fic featuring the rest of the cast; there isn't a lot of it out there to meet the demand, but there is certainly a demand for it. I've tried hard with the genficathon to set it up and mix it up in such a way that there will be something new each day to read for people who don't like John and Rodney -- I don't know if you've checked out the first batch of stories yet, but among the Monday stories there are two that feature John & Rodney, and one that features Teyla & Ronon with nary a John or a Rodney in sight, and which one is getting more comments? The Teyla/Ronon one! That honestly thrills me, especially since with the stories being anonymous, it's obviously not because readers are gravitating to a favored author or anything like that; people want to read about Teyla and Ronon, about Lorne and Zelenka -- look how popular miss_porcupine's Lorne stories are. I've been very happy with the warm response I've gotten to my own Teyla and Ronon stories in the past (in fact, I think the most popular story I've ever written was a Teyla story, "Postcards to Jeannie"). John/Rodney person though I may be, I'm delighted to see the rest of the cast getting their due.

There's also something to do with the type of fic that's out there; many of the stories that I've seen for Teyla and Ronon, maybe the majority of them, are serious, introspective character pieces, and while some of them are beautifully written, there is a real dearth of stories that "ping" the qualities that have created so many runaway hits on the John/Rodney side of the fandom -- goofy screwball comedies; light and fast-paced action; long and tightly plotted science fiction. There are stories in this fandom that qualify as excellent SF or just excellent fiction, period, regardless of fandom, like the utterly sublime "Freedom's just another word...", and the popularity of stories like that speaks more to the writer's skill than to the characters or pairing. I think there's a hunger for good fic regardless of main character, and especially for the kind of fic that plugs into the fannish hindbrain, that need for escapism that brings so many of us to fandom -- funny stories, light stories, fast stories, fun stories, as well as long, well-crafted and plotty SF like the stories Auburn writes. For one reason and another, it's often simpler and easier to plug John and Rodney into that sort of story than other characters, but that doesn't mean it's the only way it can be. I suppose this is a long way of saying that I think there's a definite demand out there for non-McShep stories that "ping" in the same way the popular McShep ones do; it's just that there haven't been very many of them, and what people write tends to reflect what they see.

[roguish-angel.livejournal.com]

Who? Teyla?

That part of fandom really pisses me off

[tielan]

Bingo! Right first guess!

Teyla Emmagan, the useless coloured primitive female of Atlantis. So saith the fandom.

And they are never wrong.

[saeva.livejournal.com]

Oh, dear. You didn't go reading the gen ficathon entries, did you? Just from the "summaries" that can only end in tears.

[tielan]

Now that's a discouraging attitude towards the genficathon.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

Is it something that's gonna make me want to hit people with my sticks?

[tielan]

In a word... Yes.

In two words... Yes, probably.

[chyti.livejournal.com]

when someone goes out of the way to hate on someone else then that person must be doing something right. besides i hate following the masses i loved moving to my own beat.

just chalk it up to frustration and jealously and keep doing what you are doing to get them mad.

[tielan]

Yes, but the 'someone else' is a fictional character here.

Honestly, I wouldn't hate on any of the characters. "Less interesting" I understand. There are characters I don't write because they don't hold as much interest for me.

However, I would never write them into a story specifically as useless and incompetent - simply because they're not. Even if they're shown a certain way on the show, sheer practicality says that there has to be more to them.

There's got to be more to Rodney than Saving The Day ability for him to be liked. People who behave like him at his most assholish aren't tolerated at a really high level - even the brilliant ones.

[bittybye2000.livejournal.com]

What you can do is mock them.

Teyla might come from a (relatively) primitive world, but she is smart and tough. She knows Pegasus as very well, and if the show doesn't show that it just because the writers don't utilize it.
She is far from incompetent as we have seen her using Earth based technology. Add to that that both Elizabeth and John have put her in charge of the city at least twice, and I doubt very much that either of them would do so if she was incompetent.
As for unobservant, she lived in Pegasus all her life, to survive she needed to be observant. She might have been able to sense the Wraith but she was both leader and Warrior she still needed to be observant. As a leader she needed to observe others, gauge their reaction, tell if they were honest. And as a warrior she would need to be able to judge her opponent. No doubt people use the Genii incident against her, but can we remember that it took a Ancient scanner to see that something wasn't quite right.

Sorry to go off on a small rant, but I'm getting tired of character bashing. Especially when it's a woman and there is cannon evidence to the contrary, that the basher just seems to ignore.

[tielan]

Especially when it's a woman and there is cannon evidence to the contrary, that the basher just seems to ignore.

Ah, but women exist to be bashed by men and other women, don'tcha know? It's all we're good for, filthy va-ja-jays! The mighty cock is the bringer of all spooge wisdom! Bow down before it!

I'll grant that the women in Stargates are more often "described" rather than "shown". Elizabeth is said to be a good negotiator and high-ranking, but she only successfully brokers one situation in the show - the Genii bomb in Siege II - and, as someone pointed out to me the other week, any woman who behaves as flirtatiously as Elizabeth did in the series would never have gotten to her position in the real world. Or would have been considered a joke by those around her.

Which, for the first time, helps me understand how people might prefer the Jessica Steen version of Elizabeth Weir to the Torri Higginson one.

However, Teyla's been shown in combat situations, in relational situations, even in technological situations. She's been willing to blow off newcomers to her planet who weren't willing to be polite, and learned Earth ways and manners within mere months of joining the expedition. She's lied to commanding officers for the sake of her team, taken in the state of technological work in a single glance, and refocused a panicking, amnesiac Rodney on the work at hand.

These things are no sinecure.

And yet people come up with statements like, "I don't see why Teyla would be considered essential personnel on the city."

Rant all you like. There just aren't enough places to go on about how awesome Teyla is. And certainly not enough people who'll answer you back.

[wneleh.livejournal.com]

As always, I'm really sad that you feel this way. Probably because I'm a McShep fan, I find SGA fandom a pretty neat place, and I wish it could be for everyone.

Just FTR, I certainly don't think Teyla is incompetent, unobservant, or incapable of doing anything useful!

- Helen

[tielan]

It's not the dislike that bugs me.

What bugs me is people who write sensible characters stupid, or who eliminate characters for no reason other than because 'they don't want to write them', or who can't see the facts of a character through their prejudice.

Teyla's a competent, capable person, with a knowledge of people, societies, customs, and who can usually defend herself in a fight. She's respected by John, Rodney, Elizabeth, Ronon, Carson, Lorne, and Zelenka - at least. At some stage in the four-season narrative, it's implied that she's friends with John, Ronon, Elizabeth, Heightmeyer, and Keller, as well as other personnel on the base. Not one of the people mentioned by name is stupid, condescending, or mean to her in the course of their regular interactions.

Prejudice is to be expected; twisting the facts for the convenience of making a character the butt end of a story, or to make the Favoured Character shine brighter is contemptible.

[mahoni.livejournal.com]

incompetent, unobservant, and incapable of doing anything useful or worthwhile

Ah, see, they must be watching that other Stargate Atlantis show. Because they're definitely not watching the one I'm watching.

*sits them all down, puts in "Aurora," and plays the bits where Teyla bluffs Caldwell over and over and over and over....*

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

*sits them all down, puts in "Aurora," and plays the bits where Teyla bluffs Caldwell over and over and over and over....*

Or:

"Epiphany" - where Rodney picks Teyla to go back to the ship to go over his plan and she knows exactly what to do

"Phantoms" - executing the remainder of Rodney's plan in the cave

"Tabula Rasa" - helping amnesiac!Rodney finish yet another plan. Heck, he even left himself a note to find her.

I could keep going but I have to go to work.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

That's why we stay in our corner and only pop our heads out to wank. Besides 99.99% of any type of fanfic is going to suck, "popular" or not.

[tielan]

Yes, well, I wasn't expecting roses, and the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. But it would have been nice to find something where Teyla isn't portrayed as a complete incompetent, to the point that someone points out that if Teyla was smart, she would have seen that one coming.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I'm awfully sorry that you've been running into character-bashing lately! I haven't personally seen it, but I know what an unpleasant feeling it is -- I've been in some fandoms where my favorite characters have been outright reviled (ha, like the one anime fandom in which I never found a single fic with a sympathetic portrayal of my favorite character, not even one!).

But I also think that SGA fandom is very open to good fic featuring the rest of the cast; there isn't a lot of it out there to meet the demand, but there is certainly a demand for it. I've tried hard with the genficathon to set it up and mix it up in such a way that there will be something new each day to read for people who don't like John and Rodney -- I don't know if you've checked out the first batch of stories yet, but among the Monday stories there are two that feature John & Rodney, and one that features Teyla & Ronon with nary a John or a Rodney in sight, and which one is getting more comments? The Teyla/Ronon one! That honestly thrills me, especially since with the stories being anonymous, it's obviously not because readers are gravitating to a favored author or anything like that; people want to read about Teyla and Ronon, about Lorne and Zelenka -- look how popular miss_porcupine's Lorne stories are. I've been very happy with the warm response I've gotten to my own Teyla and Ronon stories in the past (in fact, I think the most popular story I've ever written was a Teyla story, "Postcards to Jeannie"). John/Rodney person though I may be, I'm delighted to see the rest of the cast getting their due.

There's also something to do with the type of fic that's out there; many of the stories that I've seen for Teyla and Ronon, maybe the majority of them, are serious, introspective character pieces, and while some of them are beautifully written, there is a real dearth of stories that "ping" the qualities that have created so many runaway hits on the John/Rodney side of the fandom -- goofy screwball comedies; light and fast-paced action; long and tightly plotted science fiction. There are stories in this fandom that qualify as excellent SF or just excellent fiction, period, regardless of fandom, like the utterly sublime "Freedom's just another word...", and the popularity of stories like that speaks more to the writer's skill than to the characters or pairing. I think there's a hunger for good fic regardless of main character, and especially for the kind of fic that plugs into the fannish hindbrain, that need for escapism that brings so many of us to fandom -- funny stories, light stories, fast stories, fun stories, as well as long, well-crafted and plotty SF like the stories Auburn writes. For one reason and another, it's often simpler and easier to plug John and Rodney into that sort of story than other characters, but that doesn't mean it's the only way it can be. I suppose this is a long way of saying that I think there's a definite demand out there for non-McShep stories that "ping" in the same way the popular McShep ones do; it's just that there haven't been very many of them, and what people write tends to reflect what they see.