Am I using the Earth logic again?

[tielan]

Let's say you have a warship going into what is a known warzone. Casualties are expected. Every man and woman on the warship is aware of this - and that the warzone is their homeland. Whatever they have made of themselves, they came from the warzone, even if they don't live there any more.

You have two combatants on the warship. They have worked with the warship personnel in the warship's current location for somewhere between three to five years. They are proven combatants. They are trusted colleagues and allies.

You also have two non-combatants on the warship. A man and an infant who are connected with one of the combatants in the warship. Neither is known for any military or physical acumen - the infant is, at most, one year old. We don't see them, but they're presumed to be there.

At the edge of the warzone, the commander of the warship tells the two combatants that they have the option to leave. This is not their fight, it's not their homeland, if they chose to stay behind in their homeland, nobody would fault them. Naturally, the two combatants choose to stay and throw their lot in with the warship, even though they don't have a personal stake in the fight.

My brain says that, by this stage, all non-combatants have long since gotten off the warship. It says that since the commander of the warship only offered the two combatants the option of leaving, the non-combatants were already off the warship when it started its journey. It says that anyone who wasn't bound to this fight was left back when the commander decided they were going into the warzone.

Earth logic? Y/N?

Comments

[rhianona]

this is one of the aspects of the last episode I have the hardest time reconciling in my head. My gut says that Torren and Kanaan have to be off Atlantis, and maybe as well some of the scientists who aren't necessary for the defense of Atlantis. I can't see Teyla allowing her son to remain on board when she knows Atlantis itself might not make it. But, given the uncertainty of whether they can return to Pegasus with Atlantis... I can't see Teyla giving up her son like that. It's definitely a plot hole.

[tielan]

See, I have no problem with Teyla giving up her son if it meant his survival, even if she felt that she owed a loyalty to at least try to fight for the people of Earth.

[rhianona]

I'm really of two minds in that. She has fought so hard for her son, done everything possible for him to keep him safe and alive. so yes, I can see her giving him up to keep him safe, but I can also see her thinking that taking him with her on Atlantis is no more dangerous than leaving him in Pegasus with the dangers of the Wraith. I honestly don't know. And part of it could be me placing Earth-centric motherhood values on her. *shrugs* I think so much of it is bound up in the horrific way they've portrayed Teyla since she got pregnant.

[tielan]

My thinking goes that life is valuable in Pegasus. The Wraith take so much of it, that the continuation of bloodline and culture takes a higher priority than almost anything else.

eg. Teyla always wanted to fight the Wraith, but she kept quiet for the sake of her people until a point where others came along whom she felt had a chance of winning the fight.

While she was childless, this wasn't an issue - she could do as she pleased.

In this light, taking her son to Earth is really quite a selfish act. "I don't want to be separated from my son" vs. "My bloodline must survive."

Whether she's there or not to see her son grow up isn't relevant - in a tent-living community like the Athosians, the lines of privacy would be a lot thinner than those on Earth. And so many children would grow up without their parents due to Wraith cullings, that the community should be more important than the family unit.

And so, in Earth terms, it's unthinkable for a mother to 'abandon' her child. In Pegasus terms, in this situation it would be unthinkable for Teyla not to abandon her child.

[rhianona]

*nods* You've articulated a part of the view I have on Teyla. Hence my confusion as to what happened. *shrugs* my gut feeling is the writers didn't even think of it. I'm sure they meant that scene with Woolsey and Ronon and Teyla to be more of a "oh look, the friendly alien allies really love Earth and its people so of course they'll abandon everything they know for them" than anything else.

[tielan]

I'm not sure where the confusion comes in.

Teyla and Ronon go to Earth thinking they're going to be coming back. The degree of the fight is unimportant - this is nothing they haven't risked before. It's the fact that "this isn't their fight" that makes Woolsey think they might baulk, not the "dangerous nature of the situation."

So Teyla leaves Torran behind just as she has done every other mission she's gone out on.

But she does leave Torran behind in Pegasus, because to take a Pegasus child into a warzone would be irresponsible. It's like leaving her child in Atlantis when she goes out on a mission: Atlantis is usually a 'safe spot' for Torran - except that in this instance, it's not.

[rhianona]

I read the scene differently; I thought the implication was that they weren't sure if they would return to Pegasus, though the SGC/IOA would do their best to get them home.

[njam1990.livejournal.com]

Hi um one possibility that just occurred to me is that when they came out of hyperspace and after they gated to the hive ship. maybe Torren and Kanaan went to the alpha site from Atlantis before using the wormhole drive,

[tielan]

Again, taking two non-combatants into a war zone.

Atlantis knew it was headed for a fight against the Wraith when they headed out of Pegasus.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

I can't see Teyla taking Torren into a space battle--especially not after all that unbearable "you must STAY HOME AND BE PREGNANT YOU FEMALE BODY YOU" crap that was foisted on her in S4. I don't think she believed, when she chose to go with Atlantis to earth, that earth would keep Atlantis there. And I can't stand to think about that anymore, because it leads to some very sad places.

[tielan]

I don't think she believed, when she chose to go with Atlantis to earth, that earth would keep Atlantis there.

It goes against everything she's fighting for.

Which is why I don't get these "post S5" stories that feature Teyla (and Ronon) stuck on Earth. They'd go back. If nobody else went, they'd still go back and keep fighting. It's not just what they do, it's at the core of their identities.

Although, I also have trouble believing that there'd be any way to keep John from going back to Pegasus short of imprisoning him.

[rhianona]

this is one of the aspects of the last episode I have the hardest time reconciling in my head. My gut says that Torren and Kanaan have to be off Atlantis, and maybe as well some of the scientists who aren't necessary for the defense of Atlantis. I can't see Teyla allowing her son to remain on board when she knows Atlantis itself might not make it. But, given the uncertainty of whether they can return to Pegasus with Atlantis... I can't see Teyla giving up her son like that. It's definitely a plot hole.

[tielan]

See, I have no problem with Teyla giving up her son if it meant his survival, even if she felt that she owed a loyalty to at least try to fight for the people of Earth.

[rhianona]

I'm really of two minds in that. She has fought so hard for her son, done everything possible for him to keep him safe and alive. so yes, I can see her giving him up to keep him safe, but I can also see her thinking that taking him with her on Atlantis is no more dangerous than leaving him in Pegasus with the dangers of the Wraith. I honestly don't know. And part of it could be me placing Earth-centric motherhood values on her. *shrugs* I think so much of it is bound up in the horrific way they've portrayed Teyla since she got pregnant.

[tielan]

My thinking goes that life is valuable in Pegasus. The Wraith take so much of it, that the continuation of bloodline and culture takes a higher priority than almost anything else.

eg. Teyla always wanted to fight the Wraith, but she kept quiet for the sake of her people until a point where others came along whom she felt had a chance of winning the fight.

While she was childless, this wasn't an issue - she could do as she pleased.

In this light, taking her son to Earth is really quite a selfish act. "I don't want to be separated from my son" vs. "My bloodline must survive."

Whether she's there or not to see her son grow up isn't relevant - in a tent-living community like the Athosians, the lines of privacy would be a lot thinner than those on Earth. And so many children would grow up without their parents due to Wraith cullings, that the community should be more important than the family unit.

And so, in Earth terms, it's unthinkable for a mother to 'abandon' her child. In Pegasus terms, in this situation it would be unthinkable for Teyla not to abandon her child.

[rhianona]

*nods* You've articulated a part of the view I have on Teyla. Hence my confusion as to what happened. *shrugs* my gut feeling is the writers didn't even think of it. I'm sure they meant that scene with Woolsey and Ronon and Teyla to be more of a "oh look, the friendly alien allies really love Earth and its people so of course they'll abandon everything they know for them" than anything else.

[tielan]

I'm not sure where the confusion comes in.

Teyla and Ronon go to Earth thinking they're going to be coming back. The degree of the fight is unimportant - this is nothing they haven't risked before. It's the fact that "this isn't their fight" that makes Woolsey think they might baulk, not the "dangerous nature of the situation."

So Teyla leaves Torran behind just as she has done every other mission she's gone out on.

But she does leave Torran behind in Pegasus, because to take a Pegasus child into a warzone would be irresponsible. It's like leaving her child in Atlantis when she goes out on a mission: Atlantis is usually a 'safe spot' for Torran - except that in this instance, it's not.

[rhianona]

I read the scene differently; I thought the implication was that they weren't sure if they would return to Pegasus, though the SGC/IOA would do their best to get them home.

[njam1990.livejournal.com]

Hi um one possibility that just occurred to me is that when they came out of hyperspace and after they gated to the hive ship. maybe Torren and Kanaan went to the alpha site from Atlantis before using the wormhole drive,

[tielan]

Again, taking two non-combatants into a war zone.

Atlantis knew it was headed for a fight against the Wraith when they headed out of Pegasus.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

I can't see Teyla taking Torren into a space battle--especially not after all that unbearable "you must STAY HOME AND BE PREGNANT YOU FEMALE BODY YOU" crap that was foisted on her in S4. I don't think she believed, when she chose to go with Atlantis to earth, that earth would keep Atlantis there. And I can't stand to think about that anymore, because it leads to some very sad places.

[tielan]

I don't think she believed, when she chose to go with Atlantis to earth, that earth would keep Atlantis there.

It goes against everything she's fighting for.

Which is why I don't get these "post S5" stories that feature Teyla (and Ronon) stuck on Earth. They'd go back. If nobody else went, they'd still go back and keep fighting. It's not just what they do, it's at the core of their identities.

Although, I also have trouble believing that there'd be any way to keep John from going back to Pegasus short of imprisoning him.