It's the old problem in these kinds of discussions, that on an individual basis there's no problem, it only becomes problematic when you look at it from a distance and larger patterns emerge, and they look the same in every fandom. If you don't like to ship John with Teyla, no problem. I don't ship them, no problem. If very few fans across all possible fandoms never ship the main male with the main woman, hm. Worth examining, at least.
What I'm not seeing is ALL of slash fandom, or a large portion of it (or maybe I should say the non-writing-a-female-with-the-lead-male portion of it), exhibiting this pattern of female vilification you're talking about. Do some do it? Yes.
But that is all everyone is saying! Or, most people at least. Of course it's not all of slash fandom. You know I read slash. People aren't saying slash is misogynist and wrong, they're saying there's misogyny in slash fandom and some of the ways female characters are written (or not written) could be, you know, better. Just, slashers read these posts and think it's about them in person. Even when people slap disclaimers on their posts saying they're talking about patterns and trends, not individuals. Same thing that happened during the racism debate (and hey, I know what that feels like because I did that. I guess it's a natural reflex but it's not really helpful.)
You're going out of your way to promote and write the woman, these posts don't even apply to you. This really isn't about you. But they still apply to other parts of fandom, and one should be able to point these things out, even if they don't apply to every single member of the group.
Maybe we need better disclaimers. :/
The love interest and the haver-of-a-love-interest is determined by the character's ranking in the show. Anyone Buffy hooked up with was her love interest; she was not theirs. Anyone Kirk hooks up with is his love interest. It's about main-character standing.
For the record, I have no opinion on Tielan's specific point about alpha male/female lead, I have to think about that first. I have no data on that and I'm staying out of that part of the discussion. I was commenting on the fans' general tendency to disapprove of relationships for female characters, because that has been bugging me for a long time.
no subject
What I'm not seeing is ALL of slash fandom, or a large portion of it (or maybe I should say the non-writing-a-female-with-the-lead-male portion of it), exhibiting this pattern of female vilification you're talking about. Do some do it? Yes.
But that is all everyone is saying! Or, most people at least. Of course it's not all of slash fandom. You know I read slash. People aren't saying slash is misogynist and wrong, they're saying there's misogyny in slash fandom and some of the ways female characters are written (or not written) could be, you know, better. Just, slashers read these posts and think it's about them in person. Even when people slap disclaimers on their posts saying they're talking about patterns and trends, not individuals. Same thing that happened during the racism debate (and hey, I know what that feels like because I did that. I guess it's a natural reflex but it's not really helpful.)
You're going out of your way to promote and write the woman, these posts don't even apply to you. This really isn't about you. But they still apply to other parts of fandom, and one should be able to point these things out, even if they don't apply to every single member of the group.
Maybe we need better disclaimers. :/
The love interest and the haver-of-a-love-interest is determined by the character's ranking in the show. Anyone Buffy hooked up with was her love interest; she was not theirs. Anyone Kirk hooks up with is his love interest. It's about main-character standing.
For the record, I have no opinion on Tielan's specific point about alpha male/female lead, I have to think about that first. I have no data on that and I'm staying out of that part of the discussion. I was commenting on the fans' general tendency to disapprove of relationships for female characters, because that has been bugging me for a long time.