on awesome female characters

[tielan]

miss_haitch has a post called "Why I Love Mary Sue" over at Dreamwidth.

She links to some good posts about the issues that have developed with the term 'Mary Sue' over the last ten years, the way people view and treat original female characters - both as writers and as readers as a result of fear of 'Mary Sue', and how 'Mary Sue' has become a catch-all term for "a female character that is too awesome and should be made less awesome and more 'believable'".

They're good thoughts.

Something popped into my head on the drive to the gym tonight after reading those posts:

We insist that women are smart enough to make their own choices about their lives, their minds, their bodies. We believe we should have all the opportunities of men - both in law and in practise. Yet when it comes to the stories we tell - the narratives that shape our belief in ourselves - we seem to insist on making women less awesome than they are and can be.

Comments

[rudeandveryginger]

I have to admit: Fear of writing a Mary Sue has killed at least two of my fics in the past, one an old-school JAG story, the other an HP story. Both dealt with strong, original female characters with a unique perspective on the existing environment. Of the two, only one had a "relationship" with a (peripheral) canon character, and it was a case of "blink and you'll miss it": It was not primary to the story, and so I preferred a more subtle approach.

Should I have let the fear of Mary Sue kill the story? Probably not -- especially in the second, as it's nearly impossible to accomplish what I was trying to do without veering at least slightly down that road. But such things are so vilified within the fan community that I allowed it to stifle my creativity.

I have to wonder if it isn't this lingering fear that's stifling my attempts a strong, female profic character, too. Not necessarily because I'm afraid of what others will think, but because I've forgotten what it's like to write for myself and others like me. We joke about being feedback whores, but sometimes the muses do need to be fed, I suppose. ;)

[tielan]

I know that fear's influenced the story I was going to write this year - urban fantasy about a young woman who's always known she can do things other people can't, but whose skills suddenly take a leap in capability as she grows up.

Is she a mary sueish character? Too much of a blank slate like Bella Swan of Twilight fame?

Even for someone whose teenaged years are long since past, and who's written plenty of stuff, it's unnerving to think that people will dismiss your character or books because she's female and 'different'.

[rudeandveryginger]

The HP story I was working on revolved around a few major Arthurian elements -- namely the discovery of Merlin's Staff, which would provide Harry, et. al. with the means to ward off another advance of Voldy and the Death Eaters sometime after the third book. As such, I had developed a female descendant to an Arthurian character. Because of her origins, her magic was slightly different from that of the Hogwarts crew. The result was that she tried to remain as neutral as possible, eventually dragged into the struggle when she was forced to choose sides.

I chose this path, influenced highly by Susan Cooper's the Dark is Rising sequence, and the character of Bran Davies. Still, you can probably see where my hesitation comes from: The female OC was a strong helper character who -- in a way -- alters what we know about HP canon (her "older" magic), and plays a pivotal role as the Trio goes into battle once again.

To be honest, it sounds like yours would be a "simple" coming of age story -- not unlike The Dark is Rising itself. After all, Will Stanton starts as an average 10 year old, stumbling onto his power as an Old One as his 11th year approaches. Being 11 isn't quite "growing up" as your story seems to suggest, but the overall story arc is similar.

In a similar vein, you have David Weber's Honor Harrington series. If Honor isn't the biggest Mary Sue ever, I'm not sure who is: She's the perfect wife, mother, politician, steadholder, and military officer. But she exists within a universe Weber created himself. Is it possible for her to be a Mary Sue in a universe created around her? Perhaps, then, it's a little more "wish fulfillment" than "Mary Sue." Doesn't mean I'm not going to stay tuned and see how the story ends!

If your story were going this route -- "profic" -- then it's your universe. Do what you want. Sure, you're going to have whiners (see also: H/Hr and JKR); and you might even have some denials (see also: AD/MM). But in the end, you're TPTB and you call the shots. =)

And yes, I realize I should take my own advice...

[tielan]

:D

It's good advice! I would advise you to take it! ;)

[rudeandveryginger]

Wish I could. I'm discovering that I'm one of those "by the seat of your pants" writers -- i.e. I somewhat smother myself if I plot too much out in advance. The characters want to write themselves, not have me chart things out for them. ::sigh::

Frakking muses... The trick now is to train them back over to that rabbit hole!

[meri]

Thanks for the link to "Why I Love Mary Sue." Lots of stuff to think about.

Fear of the Mary Sue hasn't ever killed a story for me, but that's because I'm not ever drawn to writing OCs. But it has irked me in the past when I see people avoid OCs (especially women OCs) because they insist they're Mary Sues. As if all OCs are.

What I'd never thought of before is how the term is used to keep us from writing complex, successful, competent women characters.

[tielan]

I write OCs in my stories, but they're bit-parts. Minor characters who are part of the story landscape: airmen, marines, special forces, technicians, people who the canon characters know by face and name, but who aren't a major part of the plot.

However, when it comes to writing pro fiction, I find myself hemming and hawwing over the female main characters I've written. What will their reception be? Will people like them? Or will they find themselves tarred with the brush of Mary Sue, simply for being female and 'special'? (Because, truly, that's what most people write stories about - characters who are different/special/unusual/gifted.)

I don't think the use of the term to drive writers away from female characters is an intentional thing. Like the gravitation and insistence that male characters are always more interesting than female ones, it's is not necessarily intentional - although it is what we've been conditioned to think and believe.

[zahrawithaz.livejournal.com]

Saw that piece earlier, and yes, it's wonderful food for thought. (A lot of these thoughts are new to me, as someone who's relatively new to fandom.) And for self-awareness.

It's the unpleasant underbelly of the wonderful community of feedback fic-writers have, I think; that such feedback can limit your own imagination.

[tielan]

It is an unpleasant side of creative fic-writing.

And it's complicated by the fact that some people are protesting that the female characters are perceived as being good at many things to be realistic, while others are protesting that it's not that these characters aren't awesome but that they're twisting the shape of reality about them, and both use the term "mary sue" to express their dislike.

The problem also seems to be that often the fantastic, amazing female character can't be separated from the manner in which she's written.

So a talented female character is seen as a Mary Sue, even when she's well-written. Which means that, in order to avoid the label of "writing Mary Sues", someone who might be a good writer will avoid writing female characters who might be considered "too good" so as to completely avoid the charge of writing a Mary Sue.

[thothmes]

Yet when it comes to the stories we tell - the narratives that shape our belief in ourselves - we seem to insist on making women less awesome than they are and can be.

It was as a counter to this sort of thing that someone (I think it may have been ziparumpazoo, but I'm not positive) posted a "tell me why you are awesome" request on her LJ. And - to no vast surprise - turns out we're all pretty awesome.

I don't think that characters that are awesome, handled deftly by talented authors, are a problem. The problem is when poor authors write one-dimensional and stereotypical (she had sparkling emerald green eyes, porcelain skin, and a mouth that was just a little too generous under a thick and silky cloud of auburn hair. With casual grace she stretched out one long slender leg and...) versions of female characters, and make them not just a part of the story, but the alpha and omega of it. If one has read too many of those, there is a tendency to become morbidly sensitive at the least whiff of it. Too bad, because it is clear that this reaction has stifled some of the creativity of some really good writers. I imagine that if Pride and Prejudice or Jane Eyre were being written on the internet today, it wouldn't be long before someone was crying "Mary Sue!"

[tielan]

The problem is when poor authors write one-dimensional and stereotypical versions of female characters, and make them not just a part of the story, but the alpha and omega of it.

Which I address in the next post.

In one of the discussions around, someone pointed out that 'Mary Sue' has become an effective shutdown switch for anyone who doesn't want to face their own internalised misogyny: "Well, she's obviously a Mary Sue!" with the implication that "Male characters are better because men are never Mary Sues!"

[thothmes]

Oh, there are plenty of male Mary Sues. A number of them wear capes and tights, or military uniforms, and they are refered to more politely (because after all, these are men, and deserve some dignity and respect!) as wish fulfillment characters. Superman and Jack Ryan come to mind off the top of my head. Sherlock Holmes... Tarzan... Conan... I could go on. And on. And...

And I agree with the bit about internalized misogyny. Those are the kind of women who are hard to deal with out in the real world because they either make life a misery for the women that deal with them by expecting more from the women around them than the men (you need to meet a higher standard, dear, if you expect to compete with a man!), or they are unwilling to give a woman credit where credit is due, because they don't really like women. It is distressing how many of these are floating around out there in RL!

[rudeandveryginger]

Superman and Jack Ryan come to mind off the top of my head.

Oh, yes. Dear Jack. Wish fulfillment though he is, I loved the Jack Ryan series -- right up to Executive Orders and/or Debt of Honor; never finished Bear and Dragon. It all got a little... tedious. Apparently Clancy agreed because Teeth of the Tiger focussed on JP and his cousins. Didn't read that one. By then, it seemed even Clancy was tired of beating a dead horse.

The one major example of a male author with a female Mary Sue is one I mentioned above -- David Weber's Honor Harrington. He's not quite reached Jack Ryan-heights, but he's getting there. The major saving grace is that there are some absolutely brilliant short stories in the universe, using some of the more interesting minor characters. I'm just curious how Weber's going to write himself out of this mess!

[thothmes]

Wish fulfillment though he is, I loved the Jack Ryan series

My point exactly. We all enjoy these characters, especially if they are deftly written by good authors, and with an entertaining plot or an engaging sense of humor, we can like them as guilty pleasures, even if they aren't necessarily the product of the finest writers. I looove a good bit of heavy handed melodrama from time to time when I'm in the right mood. That's why I think that as female authors, if we chose to write strong, awesome, accomplished female characters, we shouldn't back down out of fear of the Mary Sue label. Jack Ryan is a male Mary Sue, but a good read. If I write a piece with a Mary Sue, and it gets slapped with that label, the right question to ask is not "How do I change her to avoid this?" but, "Did you enjoy the story? Is there something that I can change that will make it more gripping for the audience? Were you simply not in the right mood to be receptive to what I had to share?"

As women I think we often have a tendency to assume fault. Male authors are often (and yes, I know all stereotypes are just that - stereotypes and thus likely to often be in the wrong) able to say "Don't like it? You must not be the right audience for this!" and move on.