dipping a toe in the water: safe spaces

[tielan]

Writing The Other/Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of DOOM '09 - links put together by the amazingly talented and patient rydra_wong.

And a link of continuation from coffeeandink, in which she describes how two of the people who got defensive about the Rights Of Whites try to out her real name, obfuscate her arguments, and tell lies about her past.

My point of interest from her post:

sf fandom is so insular, so white-focused, and so white-dominated that some of the people involved can ignore the literally dozens of people involved in an argument about race, the literally hundreds of posts made, out of a conviction that race is not the issue when people of color say it is, or out of the conviction that there are no people of color who argue about sf fandom online because people of color generally do not attend sf conventions

Emphasis is mine.

What worries me is less that RaceFail09 is still going, and more that someone thought that personalised hassling and targeting was acceptable behaviour simply because the target disagreed with them.

What worries me still more is that the two people targeting coffeeandink are probably scaring people of colour out of fandom, sci-fi publishing, and even out of voicing their own opinions.

Where is the safe space for people of colour?

Clearly, it's not fandom, because this shit has followed coffeeandink into fandom and out of it again, and real-life holds more than enough examples of racefail to make anyone who isn't white grimace as they go through their day.

If online fandom is white people's safe space, where they can be as "post-racial" as they like (eg. "we have a black president! That means that there is no longer racism!" "I don't write about non-whites as real people in my fanfic, but that's because there aren't any important non-whites to write about in canon!" "I'm not racist, but I don't think that coloured people should get to say when they're being discriminated against!") then where is the safe space for people of colour?

Don't people of colour have a right to feel safe and unchallenged when speaking out about our experiences, our lives, our disappointments, our anger?

While the verbal answer to this question might be "Yes, of course they do!" from the majority of fandom, certain corners of fandom's behaviour reinforces the, "No, coloured people don't have a right to a safe space," attitude - not least in the behaviour of Will Sh*tterly and Kathryn Cra*er and their supporters.

Comments

[zillah975]

This.

I want, SO MUCH, to make fandom a safe space for people of color, and I feel so helpless to do it. Not helpless enough not to try, but still. When people like Shetterly and Cramer and the Nielsen Haydens use their social capital to try to silence the voices of people of color, I just. How can they sleep at night? How can they face themselves in the mirror?

[tielan]

I think that the creation of a 'safe space' means people who can claim fandom as their 'safe space' will have to confront themselves and their prejudice (not necessarily the same as racism).

Unfortunately, while 5% whine that fandom is theirs and they shouldn't have to rethink their attitudes for anyone, and another 80% stay silent on the sidelines, there will be no 'safe space' for fans of colour.

[zillah975]

*nodsnods* Agreed. And as I try to do my own work to confront myself and my prejudice, and to speak up when I see something crappy going down, I hope to encourage others to do so, too. I just get frustrated to not be able to have a bigger impact. I'm barely even a part of SF/F fandom anymore, and I was never anything but a tiny little fan anyway -- who's going to listen to me? Not that that's going to make me shut up, but yeah.

It just all breaks my heart, and I'll admit that some of it is purely selfish: I don't want to lose all these wonderful voices from fandom. But apart from that, it's just so wrong -- fandom should be an awesome place for ALL fans, and it very obviously fails miserably on that score.

[tielan]

I think that there's no such thing as being a 'small fan' when it comes to speaking out about something like this. If enough people are commenting on this, journalling about it, then people who might otherwise pass it by might take a look and be drawn in.

Right now, on at least one of my f-lists, I'm the only person commenting about this. The f-list in question is largely white, female, and fannish, and I strongly suspect they look upon my posts as "one of T's crusades *sigh*" rather than anything that involves them.

In many ways, it's even harder because I've only been looking at how race affects me in the last couple of years when I realised there was a component of prejudice regarding the treatment of non-white actors and characters in the shows I watched. It's not one of the things I started out being friended for; and for the old friends, it's difficult for them to have someone they thought they knew suddenly take up a crusade that they don't or can't sympathise with.

[amilyn.livejournal.com]

I am really, really glad that you're posting these posts and thoughts.

I'm still thinking, thinking, reading, thinking, reflecting, trying to figure out what to do/say, examining myself, reading, reflecting, being confused, being horrified, being sad, being hopeful, reading...

It's no worthy excuse, but I have about 5 important topics I want/need to blog at LJ about and haven't gotten to ANY of them yet. I think the post I need to make about the race issues and things I've been reading and thinking is equal parts my own ongoing journey and my observations in fandom.

Thank you for being one of the voices helping me think.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

It's bothersome that the only suggestions seem to boil down to specialized (and potentially tightly moderated or locked) communities. Making the little corner of fandom into a potentially even smaller corner.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

As long as people like this can rampage unchecked, its so far the only thing that halfway works.

[tielan]

Actually, I was thinking that what it would take was a great rising-up of the broader fandom for whom fandom is a safe space, to say to the Nielsen-Haydens, Shetterlys, and Cramers of fandom: No. Stop. Do not. This is unacceptable behaviour and we want no part of it.

Sadly, it can't just be fans of colour who do this, because the Nielsen-Haydens, Shetterlys, and Cramers of the world do not care about the opinions of coloured people - as they have quite clearly shown in their attitudes through this debate.

They say they do, but their actions speak for them.

Certainly, there are white allies out there who are awesome and amazing and willing to smack their compatriots upside. But they're far and few between. And the truth is that many white allies are still trying to understand and dig out their own issues, which also hampers them.

Heck, I'm still trying to understand and dig out my own issues.

It takes a very distinct courage to not only speak out, but to speak out specifically about the confronting thing: that a handful of white pro authors are using their social power to bully a woman who stood up for fans of colour against their bullying behaviour.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that mostly uprising (if any) seems to be relegated to simple things that people understand/agree on. Like everybody agrees that "outing" somebody is horrible and reprehensible, but the reason they feel that way is because people can imagine it happening to themselves and how horrible it would feel to them.

But going "Hey, this is a major breach of fandom etiquette" is a far cry from getting at the roots of issues and standing up against racistic behavior and attitudes.

Nobody will ever run asshole people completely off the internet, but to me it does seem like people don't even try. That there is more incredulous staring as opposed to standing up or even just shunning the people in question.

[tielan]

But going "Hey, this is a major breach of fandom etiquette" is a far cry from getting at the roots of issues and standing up against racistic behavior and attitudes.

Absolutely. But it sends a message that "we might like you/your writing, but I thinks this behaviour is beneath you and you need to stop it."

Which might not address the root problem, but at least addresses that there is a problem at the root of it. (And that the problem is not the people of colour.)

[skywardprodigal.livejournal.com]

I think you put this very well.

For the majority of fandom, outing of a (white) fan (which is wrong) is wrong while saying or treating fans of color in a racist way hardly ever happens at all and when it does, it isn't that big a deal.

[tielan]

Well, in all cynicism, being 'outed' is something that white fans can empathise with, while being consistently, repeatedly, and eternally treated in a racist manner isn't.

People have been saying that there's only so much individuals can attend to at any one time - which I do understand.

But it takes a moment to make a comment in support or denial, a moment to post a link that points to someone else's more-detailed thoughts on the matter (which is why I love those big long linky posts that others make), a moment to say Unacceptable behaviour, ahoy!.

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

Don't people of colour have a right to feel safe and unchallenged when speaking out about our experiences, our lives, our disappointments, our anger?

YES. You so fucking do.

And I can tailor my behavior to reinforce that against these people. I will do what it takes.

[tielan]

Thank you.

I think the problem is the old one of "silence means assent". Namely that in a situation like this, it's not enough to sit quietly on the sidelines.

I don't have the arguments to enter the debate, but I hope that by making these posts, I can persuade people who mightn't even look to see what's happening beyond their own backyard that they could play a small part, too - whether it's examining their own beliefs and attitudes in the matter of race, encouraging the people who are out there arguing the debate, or even going in there to say to people like the Hayden-Nielsens, Shetterly's, and Cramer's: This is unacceptable behaviour and we will not stand for it.

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

Yep. I can't keep my mouth shut. I don't care to. It seems like a betrayal of my own values, not to mention-- a betrayal of people who deserve any backup I can offer.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

Don't people of colour have a right to feel safe and unchallenged when speaking out about our experiences, our lives, our disappointments, our anger?

Apparently not.

[tielan]

It's so frustrating - and all the more because so many people seem to just dismiss these encounters as "a coloured thing." It doesn't involve them, they're not responsible for it, they don't have to change, there's nothing wrong with thinking that the world is perfectly fair, equitable, and just for all people and coloureds just aren't smart, intelligent, capable, or skilled enough to take advantage of it.

[pats-quinade.livejournal.com]

You absolutely do.

As someone trying to be an ally, I will do what I can to make fandom safer. I will also not whine if you make a closed space where you can speak about experiences without having to worry about somebody with my skin-tone coming in to get defensive and stupid. I've heard arguments for and against it all, and it's not my call, but I will be watching and listening and trying to understand whatever you decide to do.

[tielan]

Thanks for being an ally!

Fandom as a whole can always do with more people willing to listen and learn and then to speak out in situations like this - whether it's to directly address the people denigrating the experience and knowledge of non-whites, or just to bring it to the attention of people who might believe there's nothing wrong with the world as it is, and if coloured people have a problem with it, then the problem must be the coloured people.

I don't honestly believe that the answer is closed spaces.

I believe the answer is a collection of people - of all races - who are open-minded, willing to learn from their mistakes, willing to admit that the world goes beyond their experience, willing to object when the person on their friends' list says, "Oh, but there's nothing actually wrong with the depiction of non-whites in television," and not just when someone puts on a white hood and posts burning crosses in backyards.

[pats-quinade.livejournal.com]

I don't honestly believe that the answer is closed spaces.

I don't personally think it's the best long-term solution, either. But I don't know how much of that is just me wanting to be part of the discussion and knowing that if a closed discussion area comes up, I wouldn't be part of that.

I don't think it should be necessary. I hate the idea. It's separate but equal right there in action. But I've seen too many conversations destroyed, too many shoulders tense up and necks tighten, as the good intentions of nine thoughtful people are undone by the malice or idiocy of a tenth. Too many people are afraid right now because defensive old white fans are throwing their weight around in the blogging sandbox.

So if someone says, "You know, it shouldn't be necessary, but right now, it is," I'm not going to get butt-hurt.

And again, it's not my call. I wasn't trying to present it as the thing I wanted to push. I had seen it presented elsewhere as a possibility, and some people got angry -- heck, several years ago, I got angry about the possibility of a closed online community for women. I was logical, I was thoughtful, and I was, given what I've seen in the past few weeks, completely and totally pantsless. I just don't want to do that this time.

On a mostly unrelated note, I didn't watch much of SG:A past the first few episodes, and a lot of what I'm seeing about it is news to me. As somebody trying to portray people of color respectfully in my own writing, I'm loving the new viewpoints and ideas that have come up as part of this discussion. So thank you.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

then where is the safe space for people of colour?

These will be the spaces we create for ourselves which, contrary to popular belief, are needed even if they are just places to sit and vent before venturing out back out into the wide world.

Thing is, I'm a firm believer in safe spaces also being recognized as dangerous (in a necessary way) spaces because there's still things that we need to discuss with one another that will be potentially painful or hard. Especially as we speak across languages, national boundaries and lived experiences.

[tielan]

because there's still things that we need to discuss with one another that will be potentially painful or hard

For certain.

And...I know I've got to watch my language when I'm replying to these things, because in the hurry to get my thoughts out, I automatically fall into the language I'm accustomed to using without thinking through whether it might offend others.

*grimace*

Do you think it would be better for me to edit my language in my comments above, or just leave it and take the resultant heat?

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

Do you think it would be better for me to edit my language in my comments above, or just leave it and take the resultant heat?

I'd rather not see you edit because even though someone might think your words are intemperate, your first reaction might just be the truest one at the time.

I think that in the rush to make sure we're all *understood* so that people will listen, we sometimes run the risk of excising exactly what it is that is driving our commentary. That the conversation becomes so safe and manageable that at the end of the day, you wonder if anything really got done.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

Early on in this, I said something fairly stupid. No one called me out on it because I said it somewhere in a quiet space. And then I read some more, and realized I'd said something stupid, and so I went back and edited the comment. And what I did was to say: "This comment was stupid, but I'm letting it stand because I think it's important to a) not pretend I didn't say it and b) shed some light on the thought process."

So you might just want to put a note in your initial post that says pretty much what you said here: "my comments reflect my hurry to get my thoughts out, etc."

[zillah975]

This.

I want, SO MUCH, to make fandom a safe space for people of color, and I feel so helpless to do it. Not helpless enough not to try, but still. When people like Shetterly and Cramer and the Nielsen Haydens use their social capital to try to silence the voices of people of color, I just. How can they sleep at night? How can they face themselves in the mirror?

[tielan]

I think that the creation of a 'safe space' means people who can claim fandom as their 'safe space' will have to confront themselves and their prejudice (not necessarily the same as racism).

Unfortunately, while 5% whine that fandom is theirs and they shouldn't have to rethink their attitudes for anyone, and another 80% stay silent on the sidelines, there will be no 'safe space' for fans of colour.

[zillah975]

*nodsnods* Agreed. And as I try to do my own work to confront myself and my prejudice, and to speak up when I see something crappy going down, I hope to encourage others to do so, too. I just get frustrated to not be able to have a bigger impact. I'm barely even a part of SF/F fandom anymore, and I was never anything but a tiny little fan anyway -- who's going to listen to me? Not that that's going to make me shut up, but yeah.

It just all breaks my heart, and I'll admit that some of it is purely selfish: I don't want to lose all these wonderful voices from fandom. But apart from that, it's just so wrong -- fandom should be an awesome place for ALL fans, and it very obviously fails miserably on that score.

[tielan]

I think that there's no such thing as being a 'small fan' when it comes to speaking out about something like this. If enough people are commenting on this, journalling about it, then people who might otherwise pass it by might take a look and be drawn in.

Right now, on at least one of my f-lists, I'm the only person commenting about this. The f-list in question is largely white, female, and fannish, and I strongly suspect they look upon my posts as "one of T's crusades *sigh*" rather than anything that involves them.

In many ways, it's even harder because I've only been looking at how race affects me in the last couple of years when I realised there was a component of prejudice regarding the treatment of non-white actors and characters in the shows I watched. It's not one of the things I started out being friended for; and for the old friends, it's difficult for them to have someone they thought they knew suddenly take up a crusade that they don't or can't sympathise with.

[amilyn.livejournal.com]

I am really, really glad that you're posting these posts and thoughts.

I'm still thinking, thinking, reading, thinking, reflecting, trying to figure out what to do/say, examining myself, reading, reflecting, being confused, being horrified, being sad, being hopeful, reading...

It's no worthy excuse, but I have about 5 important topics I want/need to blog at LJ about and haven't gotten to ANY of them yet. I think the post I need to make about the race issues and things I've been reading and thinking is equal parts my own ongoing journey and my observations in fandom.

Thank you for being one of the voices helping me think.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

It's bothersome that the only suggestions seem to boil down to specialized (and potentially tightly moderated or locked) communities. Making the little corner of fandom into a potentially even smaller corner.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

As long as people like this can rampage unchecked, its so far the only thing that halfway works.

[tielan]

Actually, I was thinking that what it would take was a great rising-up of the broader fandom for whom fandom is a safe space, to say to the Nielsen-Haydens, Shetterlys, and Cramers of fandom: No. Stop. Do not. This is unacceptable behaviour and we want no part of it.

Sadly, it can't just be fans of colour who do this, because the Nielsen-Haydens, Shetterlys, and Cramers of the world do not care about the opinions of coloured people - as they have quite clearly shown in their attitudes through this debate.

They say they do, but their actions speak for them.

Certainly, there are white allies out there who are awesome and amazing and willing to smack their compatriots upside. But they're far and few between. And the truth is that many white allies are still trying to understand and dig out their own issues, which also hampers them.

Heck, I'm still trying to understand and dig out my own issues.

It takes a very distinct courage to not only speak out, but to speak out specifically about the confronting thing: that a handful of white pro authors are using their social power to bully a woman who stood up for fans of colour against their bullying behaviour.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that mostly uprising (if any) seems to be relegated to simple things that people understand/agree on. Like everybody agrees that "outing" somebody is horrible and reprehensible, but the reason they feel that way is because people can imagine it happening to themselves and how horrible it would feel to them.

But going "Hey, this is a major breach of fandom etiquette" is a far cry from getting at the roots of issues and standing up against racistic behavior and attitudes.

Nobody will ever run asshole people completely off the internet, but to me it does seem like people don't even try. That there is more incredulous staring as opposed to standing up or even just shunning the people in question.

[tielan]

But going "Hey, this is a major breach of fandom etiquette" is a far cry from getting at the roots of issues and standing up against racistic behavior and attitudes.

Absolutely. But it sends a message that "we might like you/your writing, but I thinks this behaviour is beneath you and you need to stop it."

Which might not address the root problem, but at least addresses that there is a problem at the root of it. (And that the problem is not the people of colour.)

[skywardprodigal.livejournal.com]

I think you put this very well.

For the majority of fandom, outing of a (white) fan (which is wrong) is wrong while saying or treating fans of color in a racist way hardly ever happens at all and when it does, it isn't that big a deal.

[tielan]

Well, in all cynicism, being 'outed' is something that white fans can empathise with, while being consistently, repeatedly, and eternally treated in a racist manner isn't.

People have been saying that there's only so much individuals can attend to at any one time - which I do understand.

But it takes a moment to make a comment in support or denial, a moment to post a link that points to someone else's more-detailed thoughts on the matter (which is why I love those big long linky posts that others make), a moment to say Unacceptable behaviour, ahoy!.

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

Don't people of colour have a right to feel safe and unchallenged when speaking out about our experiences, our lives, our disappointments, our anger?

YES. You so fucking do.

And I can tailor my behavior to reinforce that against these people. I will do what it takes.

[tielan]

Thank you.

I think the problem is the old one of "silence means assent". Namely that in a situation like this, it's not enough to sit quietly on the sidelines.

I don't have the arguments to enter the debate, but I hope that by making these posts, I can persuade people who mightn't even look to see what's happening beyond their own backyard that they could play a small part, too - whether it's examining their own beliefs and attitudes in the matter of race, encouraging the people who are out there arguing the debate, or even going in there to say to people like the Hayden-Nielsens, Shetterly's, and Cramer's: This is unacceptable behaviour and we will not stand for it.

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

Yep. I can't keep my mouth shut. I don't care to. It seems like a betrayal of my own values, not to mention-- a betrayal of people who deserve any backup I can offer.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

Don't people of colour have a right to feel safe and unchallenged when speaking out about our experiences, our lives, our disappointments, our anger?

Apparently not.

[tielan]

It's so frustrating - and all the more because so many people seem to just dismiss these encounters as "a coloured thing." It doesn't involve them, they're not responsible for it, they don't have to change, there's nothing wrong with thinking that the world is perfectly fair, equitable, and just for all people and coloureds just aren't smart, intelligent, capable, or skilled enough to take advantage of it.

[pats-quinade.livejournal.com]

You absolutely do.

As someone trying to be an ally, I will do what I can to make fandom safer. I will also not whine if you make a closed space where you can speak about experiences without having to worry about somebody with my skin-tone coming in to get defensive and stupid. I've heard arguments for and against it all, and it's not my call, but I will be watching and listening and trying to understand whatever you decide to do.

[tielan]

Thanks for being an ally!

Fandom as a whole can always do with more people willing to listen and learn and then to speak out in situations like this - whether it's to directly address the people denigrating the experience and knowledge of non-whites, or just to bring it to the attention of people who might believe there's nothing wrong with the world as it is, and if coloured people have a problem with it, then the problem must be the coloured people.

I don't honestly believe that the answer is closed spaces.

I believe the answer is a collection of people - of all races - who are open-minded, willing to learn from their mistakes, willing to admit that the world goes beyond their experience, willing to object when the person on their friends' list says, "Oh, but there's nothing actually wrong with the depiction of non-whites in television," and not just when someone puts on a white hood and posts burning crosses in backyards.

[pats-quinade.livejournal.com]

I don't honestly believe that the answer is closed spaces.

I don't personally think it's the best long-term solution, either. But I don't know how much of that is just me wanting to be part of the discussion and knowing that if a closed discussion area comes up, I wouldn't be part of that.

I don't think it should be necessary. I hate the idea. It's separate but equal right there in action. But I've seen too many conversations destroyed, too many shoulders tense up and necks tighten, as the good intentions of nine thoughtful people are undone by the malice or idiocy of a tenth. Too many people are afraid right now because defensive old white fans are throwing their weight around in the blogging sandbox.

So if someone says, "You know, it shouldn't be necessary, but right now, it is," I'm not going to get butt-hurt.

And again, it's not my call. I wasn't trying to present it as the thing I wanted to push. I had seen it presented elsewhere as a possibility, and some people got angry -- heck, several years ago, I got angry about the possibility of a closed online community for women. I was logical, I was thoughtful, and I was, given what I've seen in the past few weeks, completely and totally pantsless. I just don't want to do that this time.

On a mostly unrelated note, I didn't watch much of SG:A past the first few episodes, and a lot of what I'm seeing about it is news to me. As somebody trying to portray people of color respectfully in my own writing, I'm loving the new viewpoints and ideas that have come up as part of this discussion. So thank you.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

then where is the safe space for people of colour?

These will be the spaces we create for ourselves which, contrary to popular belief, are needed even if they are just places to sit and vent before venturing out back out into the wide world.

Thing is, I'm a firm believer in safe spaces also being recognized as dangerous (in a necessary way) spaces because there's still things that we need to discuss with one another that will be potentially painful or hard. Especially as we speak across languages, national boundaries and lived experiences.

[tielan]

because there's still things that we need to discuss with one another that will be potentially painful or hard

For certain.

And...I know I've got to watch my language when I'm replying to these things, because in the hurry to get my thoughts out, I automatically fall into the language I'm accustomed to using without thinking through whether it might offend others.

*grimace*

Do you think it would be better for me to edit my language in my comments above, or just leave it and take the resultant heat?

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

Do you think it would be better for me to edit my language in my comments above, or just leave it and take the resultant heat?

I'd rather not see you edit because even though someone might think your words are intemperate, your first reaction might just be the truest one at the time.

I think that in the rush to make sure we're all *understood* so that people will listen, we sometimes run the risk of excising exactly what it is that is driving our commentary. That the conversation becomes so safe and manageable that at the end of the day, you wonder if anything really got done.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

Early on in this, I said something fairly stupid. No one called me out on it because I said it somewhere in a quiet space. And then I read some more, and realized I'd said something stupid, and so I went back and edited the comment. And what I did was to say: "This comment was stupid, but I'm letting it stand because I think it's important to a) not pretend I didn't say it and b) shed some light on the thought process."

So you might just want to put a note in your initial post that says pretty much what you said here: "my comments reflect my hurry to get my thoughts out, etc."