Dude. Where did that come from?

[tielan]

Srsly loooooong post beneath the cut. I'm not even sure it will all fit.

I must have written this back in January and never got around to posting it. I think I made smaller posts, but this one is the big kahuna. Oy vey. I discovered this the other day while going through my files.

Pairing thoughts, based on 'The Long Goodbye'

Disclaimers:

I'll be frank with you before I get this essay on the go:

I make a distinction between what happens in canon and what I like to see in fanon.

When it comes to fanon, I'm going to ship Shep/Teyla no matter what happens in the show (and Liz/Ronon, Teyla/Lorne, and just about every other het pairing involving Teyla or Liz with a couple of exceptions. Okay - and possibly John/Ronon because I like the trust angles and the boys could be so damn cool together), but this is my assessment of the Shep/Weir vs. Shep/Teyla angles of the episode The Long Goodbye in canon.

I'm also ignoring the slash side of the fandom. The writers and the actors claim the characters are het in canon, I'm going to take them at their word. Fanon is your own business.

And yes, I know this is a fanonical interpretation of canon events. I am quite aware of that and do not insist that other people agree with me - this is just my point of view.


Liz probably likes Shep 'that way.'

Her concern for him has been shown in other episodes - rather overdone and icky with the degree of 'handwringing' that takes place when Shep and co. are in trouble. I dislike seeing a woman go stupid over a guy; it pushes all my anti-ship buttons.

In Long Goodbye, I don't think that we see Liz anywhere except at the start and the finish. IMO, after that first faint, it was all Phoebus pretending to be Liz. Anyone else think Liz was suspiciously ebullient after Phoebus possessed her? Caldwell even says it was all a ruse.

The choice of Sheppard was by Phoebus, who was looking for someone with all the characteristics that she wanted in an opponent.

Why pick an opponent as dangerous as Shep, then? Why not Rodney or Carson who are easier targets?

Phoebus wasn't looking for a walkover, she was looking for a challenge. Shep fit her private bill - military, fighter, of a similar age to her host, and good-looking. Why good-looking? The way Thalen and Phoebus interact during the ep suggests there was some UST happening between them in spite of their backgrounds and that Phoebus enjoyed the conflict of both personality and culture.

The other reason for Phoebus' choice of Sheppard as Thalen's host would be to cause maximum confusion to the Atlanteans. Without senior civilian and military authority - the two highest-ranking people in the city - there's no clear chain of command, no clear leadership. And the city military in particular would hesitate to shoot Sheppard the way they might not with Caldwell or a civilian.

Granted, this is all speculation - but Phoebus was quite practical and ruthless in her pursuit of Thalen's death. I see this as a logical extension of her character as we are shown it.

The chief likelihood of actual Liz->Shep (as compared to Phoebus-Thalen) in this episode is not the kiss, but the possibility that Liz's interest in Shep was noticed by others in the base, so 'her' choice of Shep as the host for Thalen (allegedly Phoebus' husband) is going to raise less eyebrows than, say, Caldwell, or someone else of whom she isn't so partial.

[Okay, in practical terms, the reasoning breaks down at this point, because there is No Way In All Hells that a) anyone would allow the civilian and military leaders of the expedition to be hosts to a wife-and-husband aliens, b) anyone would allow the civilian and military leaders of the expedition to be hosts to any aliens, c) would allow anyone as crucial to the expedition to be hosts to any aliens, but we're talking television show here. To expect real military thinking within this show would be like watching CSI and expecting them to follow actual coronial procedures - it's mud and chocolate - they're the same colour, but that's about it.]


Shep doesn't like Liz - at least, not that way.

Flirting aside - because Shep flirts the way most people breathe - Shep isn't interested in Liz that way.

In Long Goodbye, Shep is given the opportunity to be possessed by an alien who is allegedly the husband of an alien possessing Liz - and he's about as enthusiastic as the prospect of sitting down to dinner with the Wraith - as the main course.

Granted, if he was interested in Liz that way, he wouldn't want to show it so obviously, but the degree of reluctance he shows is impressive for a man who allegedly secretly adores Elizabeth Weir and wants her and her alone to have his Ancient gene babies (the events of Sanctuary and Epiphany notwithstanding). Shep gives the distinct impression that he'd rather be a lot of places other than in that room, being pressured to take on the husband of the alien possessing Liz. Possibly facing the Wraith, getting his ass kicked by Teyla, or disobeying orders.

There is no flicker of interest, hope, desire, or wish in Shep's expression or action to show that he, in any way, wants to be part of this.

Sure, he finally agrees to be the host, but we wouldn't have an episode if he didn't and the show must go on.

(This comes under the 'show-resembles-practical-real-life-the-way-mud-resembles-chocolate' heading.)

So Shep is possessed, Phoebus initiates the kiss and she and Thalen proceed to shoot everything in sight, making for a highly entertaining episode.

And, as previously implied, the kiss was initiated by Phoebus, not Liz. At the end of the ep, Liz is pretty embarrassed by the kiss, sinking down in her bed. 'I wish for the ground to open up and swallow me', anyone?


The kiss from 'Conversion'

The kiss from Conversion is inevitably going to come up here in comparison, so let's get it out of the way. Besides, it's a nice interlude for this horrifically long post.

Shep kissed Teyla when the retrovirus was changing him. Well and duh.

Rants aside about how TPTB of Stargate can't have major characters kiss without it being an alien virus, AU, time loop, or alien possession, Shep was still more-or-less Shep when he kissed Teyla.

I've heard every theory under the sun about why Shep kissed her, ranging from 'because she belongs to Ronon and he'd just beaten Ronon so he was claiming Ronon's woman' to 'he was responding to the Wraith genes in her'.

Anyone want a razor that belonged to Occam?

What's the problem with Shep actually wanting to kiss Teyla, but having the restraint not to make any moves on her - at least until the retrovirus started rewriting his DNA and personality with it? Gimme a reason other than the fact that it wrecks your preferred fanon pairing?

In the scene before Shep spars against Teyla, he's still competitive with Ronon; in the scene after he's kissed her, he's still belligerent with Liz. In all three scenes, he's articulate and very much John Sheppard. With the exception of one thing: he's Shep with the brakes off.

We are who we are with our inhibitions. Any psych will tell you this. Getting drunk does not make us 'more ourselves', it makes us 'who we are without the inhibitions that are as much a part of us as is our skin'.

Buggy!Shep as we see him in these three scenes - more so in the scenes with Teyla and Liz - is John Sheppard...but his inhibitions are down. Just because you want to smash a window doesn't mean you do. And just because you want to kiss someone doesn't mean you do.

So Shep was still Shep when he kissed Teyla. It was something he wanted to do but would never have done...until the inhibitions went bye-bye.

The same cannot be said of either Liz or Shep during the kiss in Long Goodbye. Both Phoebus and Thalen used Liz and Shep, their knowledge, their abilities, their friendships - we're talking aliens like the Goa'uld here, people, not Tok'ra (and even the Tok'ra are pretty questionable). There ain't no sharing of the options, it was 'my way or the highway' as far as Phoebus and Thalen were concerned.

In short, what you saw was Phoebus/Thalen, not Liz/Shep.


Right-o. Got this far? Jolly good. Tea and biscuits for everyone! (Cookies for the internationally-challenged Americans. *sigh*)


Shep cares about Teyla - more than she knows.

Well, duh. She's a member of his team - I'd be disappointed if he didn't care about one of his team-mates.

But the words Thalen uses are: He cares about you more than you know.

This is suspiciously reminiscent of the Sam/Jack zatarc confession in the Stargate SG-1, episode Divide and Conquer: "Because I care about her a lot more than I'm supposed to." As someone pointed out, the writers of the show have a fondness for using the euphemism 'cares about' in exchange for the verb 'to love'. Then again, they put Sam/Jack on ice for a good four seasons before Jack said he'd be there for Sam - "Always."

But that's not the point we're here to discuss (except possibly tangentially as an indicator of parallels between two shows in a single universe and written by the same people - and to point out that the writers are very much aware of fan tendencies to obsess about phrasing and cross-referencing of previous episodes).

The validity of Thalen's statement that Shep cares about Teyla more than she knows is up in the air. Is it true or not?

Frankly, whether or not Shep cares about Teyla more than she knows is not the point at this stage of the essay.

The point is that Thalen - and by implication, Shep - thought that Teyla might be influenced by it.

At the very least, Thalen - through Shep - must have believed that the relationship between Shep and Teyla was such that 'more than just friendship' was possible. And all his data was taken from Shep's point of view - suggesting that, at the least, Shep believed it was possible that Teyla might feel something more for him. Enough to spare his life? Well, the answer to that is 'no'.

This bleeds into the next point.


Teyla cares about Shep - as much as he knows.

It might be reasonable to dismiss the 'he cares about you more than you know' in the light of the fact that Thalen would have said anything that allowed him to keep his skin intact.

Except that Thalen has nothing to go on except Shep's experiences with Teyla - and Shep has no real reason to believe that Teyla likes him as anything more than a friend. She shot him down in that final scene of 'Conversion' faster than Ronon would shoot down a Wraith, and her interactions with him are friendly, but nothing that might indicate further serious interest.

Her reaction to their present situation is entirely professional, from hunting down Thalen-in-Shep, to negotiating on his behalf, and even to being willing to kill him in exchange for the two-thirds of the expedition threatened by Phoebus' gas shunt.

Thalen has no evidence that Teyla is concerned about Shep as anything more than a friend and colleague - either though his own experiences with her, or through Shep's history with her.

And yet he makes the statement.

It suggests that there's an element of truth to the words - more than Teyla knows or wants to know, more than Shep would ever say or want said.

Oh, and Teyla doesn't make the appeal for other options back to Phoebus because of Thalen-in-Shep's 'cares for you' statement; she makes it because the idea of shooting a team-mate and friend for some long-dead vendetta between two peoples is anathema to her. The 'confession' is the second thing Thalen-in-Shep says during that scene: the first is that if she shoots Thalen, Shep dies too.

Even once Thalen has died, dispossessing Shep like a garment outgrown, Teyla is entirely professional - and shows herself to have a clear understanding of both team-mate and the alien who possessed him. And at the conclusion of the scene she walks away from a slightly deflated Shep.


Teyla as a character and the whole Shep/Teyla thing

Incidentally, this whole section is not saying that Teyla is not concerned about Shep as anything more than a friend or colleague, just to say that there is no clear-cut evidence for it.

I'll freely admit I'm no fan of the 'Oh, Teyla really likes him, but she's waiting for Shep to get his act together and notice her' school of thought. For starters, if you take the statement of 'he cares about you more than you know' he's already noticed her. Then, too, Teyla's well aware of the fleeting nature of life - how could she not be, living in the shadow of the Wraith? She's not going to wait around for a guy to notice her if she really wants him. Besides, such a theory casts Teyla in far too passive a role as the faithful woman waiting patiently for the larrikin charmer to notice her sterling qualities and fall in love with her.

Puh-lease.

See my note about Liz's handwringing over Shep up at the start of the essay and the stupidity of 'romantic' behaviour. I get irked at those kinds of romance novels, too.

Does Teyla like Shep? Well, I damn sure hope so! He's her team-mate, friend, and a sparring partner she trusts to the point of deadly violence. If she doesn't like him, then there's seriously something wrong with her. Is she madly in love with him and wants to have his Ancient-gene babies? Uh, no. Definitely no. In conclusion: no.


Bizarre Love Triangle

My current assessment of the John/Liz vs. John/Teyla question is that Liz likes John but isn't willing to do anything about it. John, on the other hand, doesn't seem to reciprocate Liz's interest. He's willing to be colleagues and friends, but more? No, thank you. On the other side of the equation, Thalen's confession suggests that, even if Teyla has shot John down mid-air once Conversion, John still holds some kind of care for Teyla that goes beyond 'just friends'. It's not concrete, but it's not as way off-base as an awful lot of people would want to claim, either.

So as of Long Goodbye, it looks to me as though the status quo is Liz->John, but John->Teyla. And no real reciprocation (beyond friendship) either way.


Final Things

At any rate, in the end, my final word is this:

Canon affirmation is a lovely thing, but fanon is still unspeakable fun.

---

Comments

[alliesings.livejournal.com]

The point is that Thalen - and by implication, Shep - thought that Teyla might be influenced by it.

Yes, that's exactly the point, and so eloquently put. I was pretty surprised by the idea that Teyla doesn't lurve John back, but you make a good case for it, and I think you could be right. Thinking back over the two seasons, I think that it's possible that she's interested in him physically, but is holding herself back for a variety of reasons.

[snoggingpicard.livejournal.com]

Bravissima! See, this is everything that I wanted to say after this episode but couldn't because I'm not nearly as articulate and well-spoken as you. Lovely essay -- and the humor throughout was great too. Oh...and the translation for us dumb Americans was much appreciated. ;)

[eternalenigma.livejournal.com]

In short, what you saw was Phoebus/Thalen, not Liz/Shep.

Before and after The Long Goodbye aired, a lot of people (read: Shep/Liz shippers) were squeeing madly over THE KISS. And after I saw the ep, I was thinking, "WHAT? You do realise it wasn't even Shep/Liz?".

I also dislike seeing John/Teyla shippers use the kiss in Conversion as something to squee over, as I found it uncomfortable to watch, due to the non-con & physical force aspects of it.

[irony-rocks.livejournal.com]

Logically, you got it down pat. Problem is, logic in a shipper sense is lacking in TPTB's mind. They probably view the Long Goodbye as an extremely shipper episode between Sheppard and Weir, because, just like Conversion, they think "Aliens made 'em do it" is the perfect way to display hidden forms of UST. You gotta think like the PTB do, to get the full message. Sometimes, that lacks full logic!

Your analysis is hundred percent spot on, but the problem will always lie in the fact that TPTB have muddied up the waters so much that there are a thousand different ways to interpret any given episode for shippers. I've seen other S/W anaylsis that has me all but convinced the PTB are going down that road and no other. Everybody on both sides has too much solid evidence!

The end result? Dude, everybody's right, 'cause TPTB (I think) haven't decided what to do. You ask me, the Long Goodbye and Conversion were pilot episodes that were testing the waters for fans reactions to each ship. They were sly enough to put in a little S/W into Conversion (to offset the S/T kiss), and a little S/T into TLG (to offset to S/W kiss). It's like, this season, they were calculating their moves to make sure everybody got a little of what they wanted. Then they sat back and watched the fan's reactions. Hopefully, by next season, they'll have decided what they want.

Sorry for the long post! Multi-shipper here, so this topic resonates.

[tielan]

I never said anything about the intention of TPTB, or that the interpretation was canon - it was taken from canon, but there are a lot of ways to interpret canon based on fanon preference.

Shipping is not and never should be about being 'right'. If it's all about being 'right' then a fan has lost the plot entirely and should not be allowed in the fandom.

I'm a multishipper who has many completely uncanonical pairings - as in, people who've never spoken to each other on the show - I don't feel the need to be 'right', although I do feel the need for some form of reasoning that says that canonically, these characters might click.

[tielan]

Well, it took me a while to order and organise. But thanks. :)

[irony-rocks.livejournal.com]

Dude, I know you said it was your interpretation. I was agreeing with you, but at the same time pointing out the illogic of the PTB.

[tielan]

I love John/Teyla, but I don't see the active interest on Teyla's side. And it's not because she's hot for anyone else, she's just showing no particular preference.

In some ways, I think I see this a lot like Sam and Jack - to me, Jack was always more interested than Sam (in spite of the people who claimed Sam was pining after Jack - WTF?) in canon. She always pushed the status quo back to 'normal' when he tried to move the lines.

Interested in him? Sure. I don't think that has to translate to automatically jumping him - and I really don't get why so many fans seem to think it should - or that if she doesn't jump him, she's not at all interested in him.

[tielan]

I think the sanest way to look at the kiss in TLG from a Shep/Weir perspective is not the kiss itself but the lack of reaction from everyone else when Elizabeth asks John to sub as Phoebus' husband's host.

Just as I see the sanest way to look at the kiss in Conversion from a Shep/Teyla perspective as Shep-without-brakes - ie. the idea of kissing Teyla has crossed his subconscious (or possibly his consciousness) several times, but he held back before where he doesn't when he goes buggy.

But yes, the pics of their faces squished together is bad. It's why I did some of my own screencapping for iconage.

[tielan]

Well, in the end, TPTB don't need logic (and never have - Joss Whedon has baffled and confoozled his fandoms multiple times). They write the show and it's up to the fans to squeeze it into some semblance of rationality...or just plain ignore it.

[irony-rocks.livejournal.com]

I prefer ignoring. It's funner that way!

[tielan]

Me, I prefer working out an explanation.

[irony-rocks.livejournal.com]

See? That's the difference between someone who thinks, and someone who prefers . . . um, not to.

[alliesings.livejournal.com]

Yeah. It seems like some shippers think there are only two kinds of relationships: people having sex, and people not having sex.

[tielan]

And if they're not having sex then it's quite obvious that there's absolutely no attraction there whatsoever...

[miera-c.livejournal.com]

One thing about Shep's reaction to being taken over by an alien in Long Goodbye is that his reluctance may have absolutely nothing to do with anyone else. He might simply be very hesitant to give his body over to an alien presence. Again. He'd just almost irretrievably metamorphosed into a bug. That has to mess with your head, and even though this isn't precisely the same thing (this possession had an expiration date) I don't see him being comfortable with the basic idea, not ever.

I do think his consenting to it was at least partially motivated by loyalty to Weir. He was under the impression she was telling them all to trust Pheobus (I really wish they'd been more definitive that Elizabeth was not awake in the infirmary other than Caldwell's observation to that effect) and I think he agreed because he thought Elizabeth was advocating him agreeing to Pheobus' request. "She trusts them, and she's asking me on their behalf, so okay."

All of which conveniently leaves shipping/not shipping out of it, which wasn't really your point, eh? *s*

(of course, I'm one of the few W/S fans who is adamant that they're not even remotely close to anything like romantic affection in the present, aka in canon, for a multitude of reasons, so I also agree that his "Um, they were married..." protests are reasonable and not just him trying to hide anything. Plus I'm more interested in the trust dynamic and the friendship between them on screen. Like you, I'm perfectly happy with my fanon place and I'd actually prefer it stay fanon and far away from the screen)

[tielan]

All of which conveniently leaves shipping/not shipping out of it, which wasn't really your point, eh?

Nope. But it's a good point as well and one that I didn't consider. *smacks self*

I really like the trust-and-friendship angles between John and Elizabeth - hell, I keep writing them in my AU fanfics! I just have some problems with believing them romantically involved (even behind the scenes), in love, or without some serious, serious issues between them because of their respective positions and how they've acted in them before.

It would be nice to say that John/Teyla is in the ascendant on the show, but TPTB tend to be worrying that way. It might be better for it to stay fanon, but they're going to do what they're going to do and all I can do is sit here, hold onto my hat, and hope. :)

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

"Like mud for chocolate". This metaphor totally rocks and I shall use it everywhere.

Frankly, I think that canonically Teyla likes girls. Or at least Sora. A lot. She's never *sparkled* at a guy the way she sparkled at Sora.

And speaking of TPTB's stupid-ass harping on mind-whammy kisses and fan's tendency to get sidetracked by the bodies doing the kissing, there's only one canonical same-sex pairing so far, and it's Cadman/Brown. So there.

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

It would be nice to say that John/Teyla is in the ascendant on the show, but TPTB tend to be worrying that way.

I'm hoping that the whole Sam/Jack fiasco has persuaded them that the only good canon is NoRoMo, and to let the fans take care of the rest.

[ekbatana.livejournal.com]

I honestly, genuinely, canonically see no sexual attraction for Teyla on John's part. None - it could have been anyone in front of him in Conversion and he would have kissed them. I also see none from her side.

It's all academic probably anyway. JF and Martin Gero have said there there probably will be no romantic relationships on the show, there might be some careful tension but that it couldn't go any further. To my mind that's the way it should be - John has miles more chemistry with Rodney than anyone else in any case.

(I've also never heard anyone explicitly say the characters are heterosexual).

[tielan]

That's something else that I don't get - the repeated description of Sam/Jack as a fiasco.

The pairing got, what? maybe a half-dozen serious nods of the head in 8 seasons - everything else is interpretative. It never seriously challenged the team dynamic either(and by 'team' I don't mean that stupid definition those Daniel-fans put on the word: "as long as it includes Daniel, it's about the team" - WTF?), which is what I was more worried about.

And different people mean different things by describing it as a 'fiasco'. Some are offended that their preferred pairing didn't get a run, and others have got it all caught up in the "less Daniel-oriented stories, more Sam-solution" ones. And still others are grumpy that the pairing didn't get resolution earlier - I can count whole lists of Sam/Jack shippers who think it was a fiasco that there was nothing concretely shippy at the end of S8.

And all I did was watch the show and enjoy it for what it was.

Sorry, but you've pressed one of my buttons. So many people call it "the Sam/Jack fiasco" - but nobody ever says exactly what they mean by it, we just all assume that everyone shares our issues with Sam/Jack - whether that it happened or didn't happen, that they did too little or too much, that they did X or that they didn't do Y, that Daniel apparently got ignored during that season and he's our favourite character, or that it mucked up the "team dynamic"...

Frankly, I don't have an issue with the way they handled Sam/Jack. They could have done it smoother, with more steady development instead of the appearing/disappearing act they did. But Stargate PTB are not known for steady character development in any case, whether individual or relational.

So, yeah...hotbutton. *sigh*

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

I mean "fiasco" in the sense of "fannish flamewar that would have been on fandom_wank if f_w had existed at the time". I've never been into SG-1, but I remember encountering fannish "refugees" at the time. It wasn't as bad as the Ray Wars in dueSouth, which spread refugees all over slashdom, but it seemed pretty brutal.

[bruinsfan.livejournal.com]

(I've also never heard anyone explicitly say the characters are heterosexual).

Rodney's protested (too much?) to that effect in-show. Then again, he's the character that about 80% of the slashy subtext I've seen has radiated from.

[tielan]

Well, the fandom did make it to F_W a couple of times, IIRC. Mostly due to the fallout from MS's departure and the whole circus that followed it and the show.

[tielan]

The thing is that people see what they want to see. I don't see the slashy subtext between John and Rodney - I see them as friends - it doesn't have to involve slash and I generally prefer it doesn't between those two.

Now, for some reason that I simply cannot explain John and Ronon hits my slash buttons. Not that I'm going to write for them anytime soon.