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Srsly loooooong post beneath the cut. I'm not even sure it will all fit.
I must have written this back in January and never got around to posting it. I think I made smaller posts, but this one is the big kahuna. Oy vey. I discovered this the other day while going through my files.
Pairing thoughts, based on 'The Long Goodbye'
Disclaimers:
I'll be frank with you before I get this essay on the go:
I make a distinction between what happens in canon and what I like to see in fanon.
When it comes to fanon, I'm going to ship Shep/Teyla no matter what happens in the show (and Liz/Ronon, Teyla/Lorne, and just about every other het pairing involving Teyla or Liz with a couple of exceptions. Okay - and possibly John/Ronon because I like the trust angles and the boys could be so damn cool together), but this is my assessment of the Shep/Weir vs. Shep/Teyla angles of the episode The Long Goodbye in canon.
I'm also ignoring the slash side of the fandom. The writers and the actors claim the characters are het in canon, I'm going to take them at their word. Fanon is your own business.
And yes, I know this is a fanonical interpretation of canon events. I am quite aware of that and do not insist that other people agree with me - this is just my point of view.
Liz probably likes Shep 'that way.'
Her concern for him has been shown in other episodes - rather overdone and icky with the degree of 'handwringing' that takes place when Shep and co. are in trouble. I dislike seeing a woman go stupid over a guy; it pushes all my anti-ship buttons.
In Long Goodbye, I don't think that we see Liz anywhere except at the start and the finish. IMO, after that first faint, it was all Phoebus pretending to be Liz. Anyone else think Liz was suspiciously ebullient after Phoebus possessed her? Caldwell even says it was all a ruse.
The choice of Sheppard was by Phoebus, who was looking for someone with all the characteristics that she wanted in an opponent.
Why pick an opponent as dangerous as Shep, then? Why not Rodney or Carson who are easier targets?
Phoebus wasn't looking for a walkover, she was looking for a challenge. Shep fit her private bill - military, fighter, of a similar age to her host, and good-looking. Why good-looking? The way Thalen and Phoebus interact during the ep suggests there was some UST happening between them in spite of their backgrounds and that Phoebus enjoyed the conflict of both personality and culture.
The other reason for Phoebus' choice of Sheppard as Thalen's host would be to cause maximum confusion to the Atlanteans. Without senior civilian and military authority - the two highest-ranking people in the city - there's no clear chain of command, no clear leadership. And the city military in particular would hesitate to shoot Sheppard the way they might not with Caldwell or a civilian.
Granted, this is all speculation - but Phoebus was quite practical and ruthless in her pursuit of Thalen's death. I see this as a logical extension of her character as we are shown it.
The chief likelihood of actual Liz->Shep (as compared to Phoebus-Thalen) in this episode is not the kiss, but the possibility that Liz's interest in Shep was noticed by others in the base, so 'her' choice of Shep as the host for Thalen (allegedly Phoebus' husband) is going to raise less eyebrows than, say, Caldwell, or someone else of whom she isn't so partial.
[Okay, in practical terms, the reasoning breaks down at this point, because there is No Way In All Hells that a) anyone would allow the civilian and military leaders of the expedition to be hosts to a wife-and-husband aliens, b) anyone would allow the civilian and military leaders of the expedition to be hosts to any aliens, c) would allow anyone as crucial to the expedition to be hosts to any aliens, but we're talking television show here. To expect real military thinking within this show would be like watching CSI and expecting them to follow actual coronial procedures - it's mud and chocolate - they're the same colour, but that's about it.]
Shep doesn't like Liz - at least, not that way.
Flirting aside - because Shep flirts the way most people breathe - Shep isn't interested in Liz that way.
In Long Goodbye, Shep is given the opportunity to be possessed by an alien who is allegedly the husband of an alien possessing Liz - and he's about as enthusiastic as the prospect of sitting down to dinner with the Wraith - as the main course.
Granted, if he was interested in Liz that way, he wouldn't want to show it so obviously, but the degree of reluctance he shows is impressive for a man who allegedly secretly adores Elizabeth Weir and wants her and her alone to have his Ancient gene babies (the events of Sanctuary and Epiphany notwithstanding). Shep gives the distinct impression that he'd rather be a lot of places other than in that room, being pressured to take on the husband of the alien possessing Liz. Possibly facing the Wraith, getting his ass kicked by Teyla, or disobeying orders.
There is no flicker of interest, hope, desire, or wish in Shep's expression or action to show that he, in any way, wants to be part of this.
Sure, he finally agrees to be the host, but we wouldn't have an episode if he didn't and the show must go on.
(This comes under the 'show-resembles-practical-real-life-the-way-mud-resembles-chocolate' heading.)
So Shep is possessed, Phoebus initiates the kiss and she and Thalen proceed to shoot everything in sight, making for a highly entertaining episode.
And, as previously implied, the kiss was initiated by Phoebus, not Liz. At the end of the ep, Liz is pretty embarrassed by the kiss, sinking down in her bed. 'I wish for the ground to open up and swallow me', anyone?
The kiss from 'Conversion'
The kiss from Conversion is inevitably going to come up here in comparison, so let's get it out of the way. Besides, it's a nice interlude for this horrifically long post.
Shep kissed Teyla when the retrovirus was changing him. Well and duh.
Rants aside about how TPTB of Stargate can't have major characters kiss without it being an alien virus, AU, time loop, or alien possession, Shep was still more-or-less Shep when he kissed Teyla.
I've heard every theory under the sun about why Shep kissed her, ranging from 'because she belongs to Ronon and he'd just beaten Ronon so he was claiming Ronon's woman' to 'he was responding to the Wraith genes in her'.
Anyone want a razor that belonged to Occam?
What's the problem with Shep actually wanting to kiss Teyla, but having the restraint not to make any moves on her - at least until the retrovirus started rewriting his DNA and personality with it? Gimme a reason other than the fact that it wrecks your preferred fanon pairing?
In the scene before Shep spars against Teyla, he's still competitive with Ronon; in the scene after he's kissed her, he's still belligerent with Liz. In all three scenes, he's articulate and very much John Sheppard. With the exception of one thing: he's Shep with the brakes off.
We are who we are with our inhibitions. Any psych will tell you this. Getting drunk does not make us 'more ourselves', it makes us 'who we are without the inhibitions that are as much a part of us as is our skin'.
Buggy!Shep as we see him in these three scenes - more so in the scenes with Teyla and Liz - is John Sheppard...but his inhibitions are down. Just because you want to smash a window doesn't mean you do. And just because you want to kiss someone doesn't mean you do.
So Shep was still Shep when he kissed Teyla. It was something he wanted to do but would never have done...until the inhibitions went bye-bye.
The same cannot be said of either Liz or Shep during the kiss in Long Goodbye. Both Phoebus and Thalen used Liz and Shep, their knowledge, their abilities, their friendships - we're talking aliens like the Goa'uld here, people, not Tok'ra (and even the Tok'ra are pretty questionable). There ain't no sharing of the options, it was 'my way or the highway' as far as Phoebus and Thalen were concerned.
In short, what you saw was Phoebus/Thalen, not Liz/Shep.
Right-o. Got this far? Jolly good. Tea and biscuits for everyone! (Cookies for the internationally-challenged Americans. *sigh*)
Shep cares about Teyla - more than she knows.
Well, duh. She's a member of his team - I'd be disappointed if he didn't care about one of his team-mates.
But the words Thalen uses are: He cares about you more than you know.
This is suspiciously reminiscent of the Sam/Jack zatarc confession in the Stargate SG-1, episode Divide and Conquer: "Because I care about her a lot more than I'm supposed to." As someone pointed out, the writers of the show have a fondness for using the euphemism 'cares about' in exchange for the verb 'to love'. Then again, they put Sam/Jack on ice for a good four seasons before Jack said he'd be there for Sam - "Always."
But that's not the point we're here to discuss (except possibly tangentially as an indicator of parallels between two shows in a single universe and written by the same people - and to point out that the writers are very much aware of fan tendencies to obsess about phrasing and cross-referencing of previous episodes).
The validity of Thalen's statement that Shep cares about Teyla more than she knows is up in the air. Is it true or not?
Frankly, whether or not Shep cares about Teyla more than she knows is not the point at this stage of the essay.
The point is that Thalen - and by implication, Shep - thought that Teyla might be influenced by it.
At the very least, Thalen - through Shep - must have believed that the relationship between Shep and Teyla was such that 'more than just friendship' was possible. And all his data was taken from Shep's point of view - suggesting that, at the least, Shep believed it was possible that Teyla might feel something more for him. Enough to spare his life? Well, the answer to that is 'no'.
This bleeds into the next point.
Teyla cares about Shep - as much as he knows.
It might be reasonable to dismiss the 'he cares about you more than you know' in the light of the fact that Thalen would have said anything that allowed him to keep his skin intact.
Except that Thalen has nothing to go on except Shep's experiences with Teyla - and Shep has no real reason to believe that Teyla likes him as anything more than a friend. She shot him down in that final scene of 'Conversion' faster than Ronon would shoot down a Wraith, and her interactions with him are friendly, but nothing that might indicate further serious interest.
Her reaction to their present situation is entirely professional, from hunting down Thalen-in-Shep, to negotiating on his behalf, and even to being willing to kill him in exchange for the two-thirds of the expedition threatened by Phoebus' gas shunt.
Thalen has no evidence that Teyla is concerned about Shep as anything more than a friend and colleague - either though his own experiences with her, or through Shep's history with her.
And yet he makes the statement.
It suggests that there's an element of truth to the words - more than Teyla knows or wants to know, more than Shep would ever say or want said.
Oh, and Teyla doesn't make the appeal for other options back to Phoebus because of Thalen-in-Shep's 'cares for you' statement; she makes it because the idea of shooting a team-mate and friend for some long-dead vendetta between two peoples is anathema to her. The 'confession' is the second thing Thalen-in-Shep says during that scene: the first is that if she shoots Thalen, Shep dies too.
Even once Thalen has died, dispossessing Shep like a garment outgrown, Teyla is entirely professional - and shows herself to have a clear understanding of both team-mate and the alien who possessed him. And at the conclusion of the scene she walks away from a slightly deflated Shep.
Teyla as a character and the whole Shep/Teyla thing
Incidentally, this whole section is not saying that Teyla is not concerned about Shep as anything more than a friend or colleague, just to say that there is no clear-cut evidence for it.
I'll freely admit I'm no fan of the 'Oh, Teyla really likes him, but she's waiting for Shep to get his act together and notice her' school of thought. For starters, if you take the statement of 'he cares about you more than you know' he's already noticed her. Then, too, Teyla's well aware of the fleeting nature of life - how could she not be, living in the shadow of the Wraith? She's not going to wait around for a guy to notice her if she really wants him. Besides, such a theory casts Teyla in far too passive a role as the faithful woman waiting patiently for the larrikin charmer to notice her sterling qualities and fall in love with her.
Puh-lease.
See my note about Liz's handwringing over Shep up at the start of the essay and the stupidity of 'romantic' behaviour. I get irked at those kinds of romance novels, too.
Does Teyla like Shep? Well, I damn sure hope so! He's her team-mate, friend, and a sparring partner she trusts to the point of deadly violence. If she doesn't like him, then there's seriously something wrong with her. Is she madly in love with him and wants to have his Ancient-gene babies? Uh, no. Definitely no. In conclusion: no.
Bizarre Love Triangle
My current assessment of the John/Liz vs. John/Teyla question is that Liz likes John but isn't willing to do anything about it. John, on the other hand, doesn't seem to reciprocate Liz's interest. He's willing to be colleagues and friends, but more? No, thank you. On the other side of the equation, Thalen's confession suggests that, even if Teyla has shot John down mid-air once Conversion, John still holds some kind of care for Teyla that goes beyond 'just friends'. It's not concrete, but it's not as way off-base as an awful lot of people would want to claim, either.
So as of Long Goodbye, it looks to me as though the status quo is Liz->John, but John->Teyla. And no real reciprocation (beyond friendship) either way.
Final Things
At any rate, in the end, my final word is this:
Canon affirmation is a lovely thing, but fanon is still unspeakable fun.
---
I must have written this back in January and never got around to posting it. I think I made smaller posts, but this one is the big kahuna. Oy vey. I discovered this the other day while going through my files.
Pairing thoughts, based on 'The Long Goodbye'
Disclaimers:
I'll be frank with you before I get this essay on the go:
I make a distinction between what happens in canon and what I like to see in fanon.
When it comes to fanon, I'm going to ship Shep/Teyla no matter what happens in the show (and Liz/Ronon, Teyla/Lorne, and just about every other het pairing involving Teyla or Liz with a couple of exceptions. Okay - and possibly John/Ronon because I like the trust angles and the boys could be so damn cool together), but this is my assessment of the Shep/Weir vs. Shep/Teyla angles of the episode The Long Goodbye in canon.
I'm also ignoring the slash side of the fandom. The writers and the actors claim the characters are het in canon, I'm going to take them at their word. Fanon is your own business.
And yes, I know this is a fanonical interpretation of canon events. I am quite aware of that and do not insist that other people agree with me - this is just my point of view.
Liz probably likes Shep 'that way.'
Her concern for him has been shown in other episodes - rather overdone and icky with the degree of 'handwringing' that takes place when Shep and co. are in trouble. I dislike seeing a woman go stupid over a guy; it pushes all my anti-ship buttons.
In Long Goodbye, I don't think that we see Liz anywhere except at the start and the finish. IMO, after that first faint, it was all Phoebus pretending to be Liz. Anyone else think Liz was suspiciously ebullient after Phoebus possessed her? Caldwell even says it was all a ruse.
The choice of Sheppard was by Phoebus, who was looking for someone with all the characteristics that she wanted in an opponent.
Why pick an opponent as dangerous as Shep, then? Why not Rodney or Carson who are easier targets?
Phoebus wasn't looking for a walkover, she was looking for a challenge. Shep fit her private bill - military, fighter, of a similar age to her host, and good-looking. Why good-looking? The way Thalen and Phoebus interact during the ep suggests there was some UST happening between them in spite of their backgrounds and that Phoebus enjoyed the conflict of both personality and culture.
The other reason for Phoebus' choice of Sheppard as Thalen's host would be to cause maximum confusion to the Atlanteans. Without senior civilian and military authority - the two highest-ranking people in the city - there's no clear chain of command, no clear leadership. And the city military in particular would hesitate to shoot Sheppard the way they might not with Caldwell or a civilian.
Granted, this is all speculation - but Phoebus was quite practical and ruthless in her pursuit of Thalen's death. I see this as a logical extension of her character as we are shown it.
The chief likelihood of actual Liz->Shep (as compared to Phoebus-Thalen) in this episode is not the kiss, but the possibility that Liz's interest in Shep was noticed by others in the base, so 'her' choice of Shep as the host for Thalen (allegedly Phoebus' husband) is going to raise less eyebrows than, say, Caldwell, or someone else of whom she isn't so partial.
[Okay, in practical terms, the reasoning breaks down at this point, because there is No Way In All Hells that a) anyone would allow the civilian and military leaders of the expedition to be hosts to a wife-and-husband aliens, b) anyone would allow the civilian and military leaders of the expedition to be hosts to any aliens, c) would allow anyone as crucial to the expedition to be hosts to any aliens, but we're talking television show here. To expect real military thinking within this show would be like watching CSI and expecting them to follow actual coronial procedures - it's mud and chocolate - they're the same colour, but that's about it.]
Shep doesn't like Liz - at least, not that way.
Flirting aside - because Shep flirts the way most people breathe - Shep isn't interested in Liz that way.
In Long Goodbye, Shep is given the opportunity to be possessed by an alien who is allegedly the husband of an alien possessing Liz - and he's about as enthusiastic as the prospect of sitting down to dinner with the Wraith - as the main course.
Granted, if he was interested in Liz that way, he wouldn't want to show it so obviously, but the degree of reluctance he shows is impressive for a man who allegedly secretly adores Elizabeth Weir and wants her and her alone to have his Ancient gene babies (the events of Sanctuary and Epiphany notwithstanding). Shep gives the distinct impression that he'd rather be a lot of places other than in that room, being pressured to take on the husband of the alien possessing Liz. Possibly facing the Wraith, getting his ass kicked by Teyla, or disobeying orders.
There is no flicker of interest, hope, desire, or wish in Shep's expression or action to show that he, in any way, wants to be part of this.
Sure, he finally agrees to be the host, but we wouldn't have an episode if he didn't and the show must go on.
(This comes under the 'show-resembles-practical-real-life-the-way-mud-resembles-chocolate' heading.)
So Shep is possessed, Phoebus initiates the kiss and she and Thalen proceed to shoot everything in sight, making for a highly entertaining episode.
And, as previously implied, the kiss was initiated by Phoebus, not Liz. At the end of the ep, Liz is pretty embarrassed by the kiss, sinking down in her bed. 'I wish for the ground to open up and swallow me', anyone?
The kiss from 'Conversion'
The kiss from Conversion is inevitably going to come up here in comparison, so let's get it out of the way. Besides, it's a nice interlude for this horrifically long post.
Shep kissed Teyla when the retrovirus was changing him. Well and duh.
Rants aside about how TPTB of Stargate can't have major characters kiss without it being an alien virus, AU, time loop, or alien possession, Shep was still more-or-less Shep when he kissed Teyla.
I've heard every theory under the sun about why Shep kissed her, ranging from 'because she belongs to Ronon and he'd just beaten Ronon so he was claiming Ronon's woman' to 'he was responding to the Wraith genes in her'.
Anyone want a razor that belonged to Occam?
What's the problem with Shep actually wanting to kiss Teyla, but having the restraint not to make any moves on her - at least until the retrovirus started rewriting his DNA and personality with it? Gimme a reason other than the fact that it wrecks your preferred fanon pairing?
In the scene before Shep spars against Teyla, he's still competitive with Ronon; in the scene after he's kissed her, he's still belligerent with Liz. In all three scenes, he's articulate and very much John Sheppard. With the exception of one thing: he's Shep with the brakes off.
We are who we are with our inhibitions. Any psych will tell you this. Getting drunk does not make us 'more ourselves', it makes us 'who we are without the inhibitions that are as much a part of us as is our skin'.
Buggy!Shep as we see him in these three scenes - more so in the scenes with Teyla and Liz - is John Sheppard...but his inhibitions are down. Just because you want to smash a window doesn't mean you do. And just because you want to kiss someone doesn't mean you do.
So Shep was still Shep when he kissed Teyla. It was something he wanted to do but would never have done...until the inhibitions went bye-bye.
The same cannot be said of either Liz or Shep during the kiss in Long Goodbye. Both Phoebus and Thalen used Liz and Shep, their knowledge, their abilities, their friendships - we're talking aliens like the Goa'uld here, people, not Tok'ra (and even the Tok'ra are pretty questionable). There ain't no sharing of the options, it was 'my way or the highway' as far as Phoebus and Thalen were concerned.
In short, what you saw was Phoebus/Thalen, not Liz/Shep.
Right-o. Got this far? Jolly good. Tea and biscuits for everyone! (Cookies for the internationally-challenged Americans. *sigh*)
Shep cares about Teyla - more than she knows.
Well, duh. She's a member of his team - I'd be disappointed if he didn't care about one of his team-mates.
But the words Thalen uses are: He cares about you more than you know.
This is suspiciously reminiscent of the Sam/Jack zatarc confession in the Stargate SG-1, episode Divide and Conquer: "Because I care about her a lot more than I'm supposed to." As someone pointed out, the writers of the show have a fondness for using the euphemism 'cares about' in exchange for the verb 'to love'. Then again, they put Sam/Jack on ice for a good four seasons before Jack said he'd be there for Sam - "Always."
But that's not the point we're here to discuss (except possibly tangentially as an indicator of parallels between two shows in a single universe and written by the same people - and to point out that the writers are very much aware of fan tendencies to obsess about phrasing and cross-referencing of previous episodes).
The validity of Thalen's statement that Shep cares about Teyla more than she knows is up in the air. Is it true or not?
Frankly, whether or not Shep cares about Teyla more than she knows is not the point at this stage of the essay.
The point is that Thalen - and by implication, Shep - thought that Teyla might be influenced by it.
At the very least, Thalen - through Shep - must have believed that the relationship between Shep and Teyla was such that 'more than just friendship' was possible. And all his data was taken from Shep's point of view - suggesting that, at the least, Shep believed it was possible that Teyla might feel something more for him. Enough to spare his life? Well, the answer to that is 'no'.
This bleeds into the next point.
Teyla cares about Shep - as much as he knows.
It might be reasonable to dismiss the 'he cares about you more than you know' in the light of the fact that Thalen would have said anything that allowed him to keep his skin intact.
Except that Thalen has nothing to go on except Shep's experiences with Teyla - and Shep has no real reason to believe that Teyla likes him as anything more than a friend. She shot him down in that final scene of 'Conversion' faster than Ronon would shoot down a Wraith, and her interactions with him are friendly, but nothing that might indicate further serious interest.
Her reaction to their present situation is entirely professional, from hunting down Thalen-in-Shep, to negotiating on his behalf, and even to being willing to kill him in exchange for the two-thirds of the expedition threatened by Phoebus' gas shunt.
Thalen has no evidence that Teyla is concerned about Shep as anything more than a friend and colleague - either though his own experiences with her, or through Shep's history with her.
And yet he makes the statement.
It suggests that there's an element of truth to the words - more than Teyla knows or wants to know, more than Shep would ever say or want said.
Oh, and Teyla doesn't make the appeal for other options back to Phoebus because of Thalen-in-Shep's 'cares for you' statement; she makes it because the idea of shooting a team-mate and friend for some long-dead vendetta between two peoples is anathema to her. The 'confession' is the second thing Thalen-in-Shep says during that scene: the first is that if she shoots Thalen, Shep dies too.
Even once Thalen has died, dispossessing Shep like a garment outgrown, Teyla is entirely professional - and shows herself to have a clear understanding of both team-mate and the alien who possessed him. And at the conclusion of the scene she walks away from a slightly deflated Shep.
Teyla as a character and the whole Shep/Teyla thing
Incidentally, this whole section is not saying that Teyla is not concerned about Shep as anything more than a friend or colleague, just to say that there is no clear-cut evidence for it.
I'll freely admit I'm no fan of the 'Oh, Teyla really likes him, but she's waiting for Shep to get his act together and notice her' school of thought. For starters, if you take the statement of 'he cares about you more than you know' he's already noticed her. Then, too, Teyla's well aware of the fleeting nature of life - how could she not be, living in the shadow of the Wraith? She's not going to wait around for a guy to notice her if she really wants him. Besides, such a theory casts Teyla in far too passive a role as the faithful woman waiting patiently for the larrikin charmer to notice her sterling qualities and fall in love with her.
Puh-lease.
See my note about Liz's handwringing over Shep up at the start of the essay and the stupidity of 'romantic' behaviour. I get irked at those kinds of romance novels, too.
Does Teyla like Shep? Well, I damn sure hope so! He's her team-mate, friend, and a sparring partner she trusts to the point of deadly violence. If she doesn't like him, then there's seriously something wrong with her. Is she madly in love with him and wants to have his Ancient-gene babies? Uh, no. Definitely no. In conclusion: no.
Bizarre Love Triangle
My current assessment of the John/Liz vs. John/Teyla question is that Liz likes John but isn't willing to do anything about it. John, on the other hand, doesn't seem to reciprocate Liz's interest. He's willing to be colleagues and friends, but more? No, thank you. On the other side of the equation, Thalen's confession suggests that, even if Teyla has shot John down mid-air once Conversion, John still holds some kind of care for Teyla that goes beyond 'just friends'. It's not concrete, but it's not as way off-base as an awful lot of people would want to claim, either.
So as of Long Goodbye, it looks to me as though the status quo is Liz->John, but John->Teyla. And no real reciprocation (beyond friendship) either way.
Final Things
At any rate, in the end, my final word is this:
Canon affirmation is a lovely thing, but fanon is still unspeakable fun.
---
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Now, for some reason that I simply cannot explain John and Ronon hits my slash buttons. Not that I'm going to write for them anytime soon.
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Which part in Duet, and who was it directed at - if you don't mind my asking.
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Which part in Duet, and who was it directed at - if you don't mind my asking.
Well, I was, at any rate. It's generally difficult to have slashy subtext if it's not directed at someone. But the part I was talking about was McKay's jump-cut argument with Cadman just before they collapse in Heightmeyer's office. He was pretty angrily yelling something to the effect of "what makes you think I WANT a look into how a woman's mind works" just as the seizure hit. Sure, that could be taken at face value as a somewhat misogynistic declaration, but it could also be given slashy connotations. His lack of interest in the differences of thought processes between women and men might be indicative of an overall lack of interest in the former.
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Even under that definition of his statement (which I see more as Rodney being his typical misogynistic self - cf. comment to Sam Carter in his first SG-1 ep about 'sexy blondes') it doesn't mean he's necessarily interest in the latter, either.
But it's an interesting take, certainly.