Dude. Where did that come from?

[tielan]

Srsly loooooong post beneath the cut. I'm not even sure it will all fit.

I must have written this back in January and never got around to posting it. I think I made smaller posts, but this one is the big kahuna. Oy vey. I discovered this the other day while going through my files.

Pairing thoughts, based on 'The Long Goodbye'

Disclaimers:

I'll be frank with you before I get this essay on the go:

I make a distinction between what happens in canon and what I like to see in fanon.

When it comes to fanon, I'm going to ship Shep/Teyla no matter what happens in the show (and Liz/Ronon, Teyla/Lorne, and just about every other het pairing involving Teyla or Liz with a couple of exceptions. Okay - and possibly John/Ronon because I like the trust angles and the boys could be so damn cool together), but this is my assessment of the Shep/Weir vs. Shep/Teyla angles of the episode The Long Goodbye in canon.

I'm also ignoring the slash side of the fandom. The writers and the actors claim the characters are het in canon, I'm going to take them at their word. Fanon is your own business.

And yes, I know this is a fanonical interpretation of canon events. I am quite aware of that and do not insist that other people agree with me - this is just my point of view.


Liz probably likes Shep 'that way.'

Her concern for him has been shown in other episodes - rather overdone and icky with the degree of 'handwringing' that takes place when Shep and co. are in trouble. I dislike seeing a woman go stupid over a guy; it pushes all my anti-ship buttons.

In Long Goodbye, I don't think that we see Liz anywhere except at the start and the finish. IMO, after that first faint, it was all Phoebus pretending to be Liz. Anyone else think Liz was suspiciously ebullient after Phoebus possessed her? Caldwell even says it was all a ruse.

The choice of Sheppard was by Phoebus, who was looking for someone with all the characteristics that she wanted in an opponent.

Why pick an opponent as dangerous as Shep, then? Why not Rodney or Carson who are easier targets?

Phoebus wasn't looking for a walkover, she was looking for a challenge. Shep fit her private bill - military, fighter, of a similar age to her host, and good-looking. Why good-looking? The way Thalen and Phoebus interact during the ep suggests there was some UST happening between them in spite of their backgrounds and that Phoebus enjoyed the conflict of both personality and culture.

The other reason for Phoebus' choice of Sheppard as Thalen's host would be to cause maximum confusion to the Atlanteans. Without senior civilian and military authority - the two highest-ranking people in the city - there's no clear chain of command, no clear leadership. And the city military in particular would hesitate to shoot Sheppard the way they might not with Caldwell or a civilian.

Granted, this is all speculation - but Phoebus was quite practical and ruthless in her pursuit of Thalen's death. I see this as a logical extension of her character as we are shown it.

The chief likelihood of actual Liz->Shep (as compared to Phoebus-Thalen) in this episode is not the kiss, but the possibility that Liz's interest in Shep was noticed by others in the base, so 'her' choice of Shep as the host for Thalen (allegedly Phoebus' husband) is going to raise less eyebrows than, say, Caldwell, or someone else of whom she isn't so partial.

[Okay, in practical terms, the reasoning breaks down at this point, because there is No Way In All Hells that a) anyone would allow the civilian and military leaders of the expedition to be hosts to a wife-and-husband aliens, b) anyone would allow the civilian and military leaders of the expedition to be hosts to any aliens, c) would allow anyone as crucial to the expedition to be hosts to any aliens, but we're talking television show here. To expect real military thinking within this show would be like watching CSI and expecting them to follow actual coronial procedures - it's mud and chocolate - they're the same colour, but that's about it.]


Shep doesn't like Liz - at least, not that way.

Flirting aside - because Shep flirts the way most people breathe - Shep isn't interested in Liz that way.

In Long Goodbye, Shep is given the opportunity to be possessed by an alien who is allegedly the husband of an alien possessing Liz - and he's about as enthusiastic as the prospect of sitting down to dinner with the Wraith - as the main course.

Granted, if he was interested in Liz that way, he wouldn't want to show it so obviously, but the degree of reluctance he shows is impressive for a man who allegedly secretly adores Elizabeth Weir and wants her and her alone to have his Ancient gene babies (the events of Sanctuary and Epiphany notwithstanding). Shep gives the distinct impression that he'd rather be a lot of places other than in that room, being pressured to take on the husband of the alien possessing Liz. Possibly facing the Wraith, getting his ass kicked by Teyla, or disobeying orders.

There is no flicker of interest, hope, desire, or wish in Shep's expression or action to show that he, in any way, wants to be part of this.

Sure, he finally agrees to be the host, but we wouldn't have an episode if he didn't and the show must go on.

(This comes under the 'show-resembles-practical-real-life-the-way-mud-resembles-chocolate' heading.)

So Shep is possessed, Phoebus initiates the kiss and she and Thalen proceed to shoot everything in sight, making for a highly entertaining episode.

And, as previously implied, the kiss was initiated by Phoebus, not Liz. At the end of the ep, Liz is pretty embarrassed by the kiss, sinking down in her bed. 'I wish for the ground to open up and swallow me', anyone?


The kiss from 'Conversion'

The kiss from Conversion is inevitably going to come up here in comparison, so let's get it out of the way. Besides, it's a nice interlude for this horrifically long post.

Shep kissed Teyla when the retrovirus was changing him. Well and duh.

Rants aside about how TPTB of Stargate can't have major characters kiss without it being an alien virus, AU, time loop, or alien possession, Shep was still more-or-less Shep when he kissed Teyla.

I've heard every theory under the sun about why Shep kissed her, ranging from 'because she belongs to Ronon and he'd just beaten Ronon so he was claiming Ronon's woman' to 'he was responding to the Wraith genes in her'.

Anyone want a razor that belonged to Occam?

What's the problem with Shep actually wanting to kiss Teyla, but having the restraint not to make any moves on her - at least until the retrovirus started rewriting his DNA and personality with it? Gimme a reason other than the fact that it wrecks your preferred fanon pairing?

In the scene before Shep spars against Teyla, he's still competitive with Ronon; in the scene after he's kissed her, he's still belligerent with Liz. In all three scenes, he's articulate and very much John Sheppard. With the exception of one thing: he's Shep with the brakes off.

We are who we are with our inhibitions. Any psych will tell you this. Getting drunk does not make us 'more ourselves', it makes us 'who we are without the inhibitions that are as much a part of us as is our skin'.

Buggy!Shep as we see him in these three scenes - more so in the scenes with Teyla and Liz - is John Sheppard...but his inhibitions are down. Just because you want to smash a window doesn't mean you do. And just because you want to kiss someone doesn't mean you do.

So Shep was still Shep when he kissed Teyla. It was something he wanted to do but would never have done...until the inhibitions went bye-bye.

The same cannot be said of either Liz or Shep during the kiss in Long Goodbye. Both Phoebus and Thalen used Liz and Shep, their knowledge, their abilities, their friendships - we're talking aliens like the Goa'uld here, people, not Tok'ra (and even the Tok'ra are pretty questionable). There ain't no sharing of the options, it was 'my way or the highway' as far as Phoebus and Thalen were concerned.

In short, what you saw was Phoebus/Thalen, not Liz/Shep.


Right-o. Got this far? Jolly good. Tea and biscuits for everyone! (Cookies for the internationally-challenged Americans. *sigh*)


Shep cares about Teyla - more than she knows.

Well, duh. She's a member of his team - I'd be disappointed if he didn't care about one of his team-mates.

But the words Thalen uses are: He cares about you more than you know.

This is suspiciously reminiscent of the Sam/Jack zatarc confession in the Stargate SG-1, episode Divide and Conquer: "Because I care about her a lot more than I'm supposed to." As someone pointed out, the writers of the show have a fondness for using the euphemism 'cares about' in exchange for the verb 'to love'. Then again, they put Sam/Jack on ice for a good four seasons before Jack said he'd be there for Sam - "Always."

But that's not the point we're here to discuss (except possibly tangentially as an indicator of parallels between two shows in a single universe and written by the same people - and to point out that the writers are very much aware of fan tendencies to obsess about phrasing and cross-referencing of previous episodes).

The validity of Thalen's statement that Shep cares about Teyla more than she knows is up in the air. Is it true or not?

Frankly, whether or not Shep cares about Teyla more than she knows is not the point at this stage of the essay.

The point is that Thalen - and by implication, Shep - thought that Teyla might be influenced by it.

At the very least, Thalen - through Shep - must have believed that the relationship between Shep and Teyla was such that 'more than just friendship' was possible. And all his data was taken from Shep's point of view - suggesting that, at the least, Shep believed it was possible that Teyla might feel something more for him. Enough to spare his life? Well, the answer to that is 'no'.

This bleeds into the next point.


Teyla cares about Shep - as much as he knows.

It might be reasonable to dismiss the 'he cares about you more than you know' in the light of the fact that Thalen would have said anything that allowed him to keep his skin intact.

Except that Thalen has nothing to go on except Shep's experiences with Teyla - and Shep has no real reason to believe that Teyla likes him as anything more than a friend. She shot him down in that final scene of 'Conversion' faster than Ronon would shoot down a Wraith, and her interactions with him are friendly, but nothing that might indicate further serious interest.

Her reaction to their present situation is entirely professional, from hunting down Thalen-in-Shep, to negotiating on his behalf, and even to being willing to kill him in exchange for the two-thirds of the expedition threatened by Phoebus' gas shunt.

Thalen has no evidence that Teyla is concerned about Shep as anything more than a friend and colleague - either though his own experiences with her, or through Shep's history with her.

And yet he makes the statement.

It suggests that there's an element of truth to the words - more than Teyla knows or wants to know, more than Shep would ever say or want said.

Oh, and Teyla doesn't make the appeal for other options back to Phoebus because of Thalen-in-Shep's 'cares for you' statement; she makes it because the idea of shooting a team-mate and friend for some long-dead vendetta between two peoples is anathema to her. The 'confession' is the second thing Thalen-in-Shep says during that scene: the first is that if she shoots Thalen, Shep dies too.

Even once Thalen has died, dispossessing Shep like a garment outgrown, Teyla is entirely professional - and shows herself to have a clear understanding of both team-mate and the alien who possessed him. And at the conclusion of the scene she walks away from a slightly deflated Shep.


Teyla as a character and the whole Shep/Teyla thing

Incidentally, this whole section is not saying that Teyla is not concerned about Shep as anything more than a friend or colleague, just to say that there is no clear-cut evidence for it.

I'll freely admit I'm no fan of the 'Oh, Teyla really likes him, but she's waiting for Shep to get his act together and notice her' school of thought. For starters, if you take the statement of 'he cares about you more than you know' he's already noticed her. Then, too, Teyla's well aware of the fleeting nature of life - how could she not be, living in the shadow of the Wraith? She's not going to wait around for a guy to notice her if she really wants him. Besides, such a theory casts Teyla in far too passive a role as the faithful woman waiting patiently for the larrikin charmer to notice her sterling qualities and fall in love with her.

Puh-lease.

See my note about Liz's handwringing over Shep up at the start of the essay and the stupidity of 'romantic' behaviour. I get irked at those kinds of romance novels, too.

Does Teyla like Shep? Well, I damn sure hope so! He's her team-mate, friend, and a sparring partner she trusts to the point of deadly violence. If she doesn't like him, then there's seriously something wrong with her. Is she madly in love with him and wants to have his Ancient-gene babies? Uh, no. Definitely no. In conclusion: no.


Bizarre Love Triangle

My current assessment of the John/Liz vs. John/Teyla question is that Liz likes John but isn't willing to do anything about it. John, on the other hand, doesn't seem to reciprocate Liz's interest. He's willing to be colleagues and friends, but more? No, thank you. On the other side of the equation, Thalen's confession suggests that, even if Teyla has shot John down mid-air once Conversion, John still holds some kind of care for Teyla that goes beyond 'just friends'. It's not concrete, but it's not as way off-base as an awful lot of people would want to claim, either.

So as of Long Goodbye, it looks to me as though the status quo is Liz->John, but John->Teyla. And no real reciprocation (beyond friendship) either way.


Final Things

At any rate, in the end, my final word is this:

Canon affirmation is a lovely thing, but fanon is still unspeakable fun.

---

Comments

[alliesings.livejournal.com]

The point is that Thalen - and by implication, Shep - thought that Teyla might be influenced by it.

Yes, that's exactly the point, and so eloquently put. I was pretty surprised by the idea that Teyla doesn't lurve John back, but you make a good case for it, and I think you could be right. Thinking back over the two seasons, I think that it's possible that she's interested in him physically, but is holding herself back for a variety of reasons.

[tielan]

I love John/Teyla, but I don't see the active interest on Teyla's side. And it's not because she's hot for anyone else, she's just showing no particular preference.

In some ways, I think I see this a lot like Sam and Jack - to me, Jack was always more interested than Sam (in spite of the people who claimed Sam was pining after Jack - WTF?) in canon. She always pushed the status quo back to 'normal' when he tried to move the lines.

Interested in him? Sure. I don't think that has to translate to automatically jumping him - and I really don't get why so many fans seem to think it should - or that if she doesn't jump him, she's not at all interested in him.

[snoggingpicard.livejournal.com]

Bravissima! See, this is everything that I wanted to say after this episode but couldn't because I'm not nearly as articulate and well-spoken as you. Lovely essay -- and the humor throughout was great too. Oh...and the translation for us dumb Americans was much appreciated. ;)

[tielan]

Well, it took me a while to order and organise. But thanks. :)

[eternalenigma.livejournal.com]

In short, what you saw was Phoebus/Thalen, not Liz/Shep.

Before and after The Long Goodbye aired, a lot of people (read: Shep/Liz shippers) were squeeing madly over THE KISS. And after I saw the ep, I was thinking, "WHAT? You do realise it wasn't even Shep/Liz?".

I also dislike seeing John/Teyla shippers use the kiss in Conversion as something to squee over, as I found it uncomfortable to watch, due to the non-con & physical force aspects of it.

[tielan]

I think the sanest way to look at the kiss in TLG from a Shep/Weir perspective is not the kiss itself but the lack of reaction from everyone else when Elizabeth asks John to sub as Phoebus' husband's host.

Just as I see the sanest way to look at the kiss in Conversion from a Shep/Teyla perspective as Shep-without-brakes - ie. the idea of kissing Teyla has crossed his subconscious (or possibly his consciousness) several times, but he held back before where he doesn't when he goes buggy.

But yes, the pics of their faces squished together is bad. It's why I did some of my own screencapping for iconage.

[irony-rocks.livejournal.com]

Logically, you got it down pat. Problem is, logic in a shipper sense is lacking in TPTB's mind. They probably view the Long Goodbye as an extremely shipper episode between Sheppard and Weir, because, just like Conversion, they think "Aliens made 'em do it" is the perfect way to display hidden forms of UST. You gotta think like the PTB do, to get the full message. Sometimes, that lacks full logic!

Your analysis is hundred percent spot on, but the problem will always lie in the fact that TPTB have muddied up the waters so much that there are a thousand different ways to interpret any given episode for shippers. I've seen other S/W anaylsis that has me all but convinced the PTB are going down that road and no other. Everybody on both sides has too much solid evidence!

The end result? Dude, everybody's right, 'cause TPTB (I think) haven't decided what to do. You ask me, the Long Goodbye and Conversion were pilot episodes that were testing the waters for fans reactions to each ship. They were sly enough to put in a little S/W into Conversion (to offset the S/T kiss), and a little S/T into TLG (to offset to S/W kiss). It's like, this season, they were calculating their moves to make sure everybody got a little of what they wanted. Then they sat back and watched the fan's reactions. Hopefully, by next season, they'll have decided what they want.

Sorry for the long post! Multi-shipper here, so this topic resonates.

[tielan]

I never said anything about the intention of TPTB, or that the interpretation was canon - it was taken from canon, but there are a lot of ways to interpret canon based on fanon preference.

Shipping is not and never should be about being 'right'. If it's all about being 'right' then a fan has lost the plot entirely and should not be allowed in the fandom.

I'm a multishipper who has many completely uncanonical pairings - as in, people who've never spoken to each other on the show - I don't feel the need to be 'right', although I do feel the need for some form of reasoning that says that canonically, these characters might click.

[miera-c.livejournal.com]

One thing about Shep's reaction to being taken over by an alien in Long Goodbye is that his reluctance may have absolutely nothing to do with anyone else. He might simply be very hesitant to give his body over to an alien presence. Again. He'd just almost irretrievably metamorphosed into a bug. That has to mess with your head, and even though this isn't precisely the same thing (this possession had an expiration date) I don't see him being comfortable with the basic idea, not ever.

I do think his consenting to it was at least partially motivated by loyalty to Weir. He was under the impression she was telling them all to trust Pheobus (I really wish they'd been more definitive that Elizabeth was not awake in the infirmary other than Caldwell's observation to that effect) and I think he agreed because he thought Elizabeth was advocating him agreeing to Pheobus' request. "She trusts them, and she's asking me on their behalf, so okay."

All of which conveniently leaves shipping/not shipping out of it, which wasn't really your point, eh? *s*

(of course, I'm one of the few W/S fans who is adamant that they're not even remotely close to anything like romantic affection in the present, aka in canon, for a multitude of reasons, so I also agree that his "Um, they were married..." protests are reasonable and not just him trying to hide anything. Plus I'm more interested in the trust dynamic and the friendship between them on screen. Like you, I'm perfectly happy with my fanon place and I'd actually prefer it stay fanon and far away from the screen)

[tielan]

All of which conveniently leaves shipping/not shipping out of it, which wasn't really your point, eh?

Nope. But it's a good point as well and one that I didn't consider. *smacks self*

I really like the trust-and-friendship angles between John and Elizabeth - hell, I keep writing them in my AU fanfics! I just have some problems with believing them romantically involved (even behind the scenes), in love, or without some serious, serious issues between them because of their respective positions and how they've acted in them before.

It would be nice to say that John/Teyla is in the ascendant on the show, but TPTB tend to be worrying that way. It might be better for it to stay fanon, but they're going to do what they're going to do and all I can do is sit here, hold onto my hat, and hope. :)

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

"Like mud for chocolate". This metaphor totally rocks and I shall use it everywhere.

Frankly, I think that canonically Teyla likes girls. Or at least Sora. A lot. She's never *sparkled* at a guy the way she sparkled at Sora.

And speaking of TPTB's stupid-ass harping on mind-whammy kisses and fan's tendency to get sidetracked by the bodies doing the kissing, there's only one canonical same-sex pairing so far, and it's Cadman/Brown. So there.

[trialia]

Frankly, I think that canonically Teyla likes girls. Or at least Sora. A lot. She's never *sparkled* at a guy the way she sparkled at Sora.

Pity TIIC will never do anything about it, 'cause I'd like to see a canon lesbian pairing in sci-fi. They're sadly lacking. *sigh*

[eido.livejournal.com]

She's never *sparkled* at a guy

You see, here I would say Michael... but then I readily admit I'm sick and twisted like that.

I can't help it. I really saw genuine spark between CT and RL, wrong as it is considering what/who their characters are... but it also seemed like Teyla was one of the few trying to genuinely be kind to Michael, despite everything. I also admit during "Michael" I was getting many a' flashback to Teyla's own ordeal in "The Gift". Almost like they're two of a kind in an utterly perverse sort of way.

[ekbatana.livejournal.com]

I honestly, genuinely, canonically see no sexual attraction for Teyla on John's part. None - it could have been anyone in front of him in Conversion and he would have kissed them. I also see none from her side.

It's all academic probably anyway. JF and Martin Gero have said there there probably will be no romantic relationships on the show, there might be some careful tension but that it couldn't go any further. To my mind that's the way it should be - John has miles more chemistry with Rodney than anyone else in any case.

(I've also never heard anyone explicitly say the characters are heterosexual).

[bruinsfan.livejournal.com]

(I've also never heard anyone explicitly say the characters are heterosexual).

Rodney's protested (too much?) to that effect in-show. Then again, he's the character that about 80% of the slashy subtext I've seen has radiated from.

[ladysarahjane.livejournal.com]

Wow. I usually don't read long posts that are fic related but you sucked me in! Not to mention that I had to read all the comments. So in response:

1) Not a fan of slash and I want to yell at the writers for introducing it on screen w/ the McKay/Beckett, which doesn't really count because Cadman was in control of McKay's body, but still. Ewww... The only real problem is people see what they want to see (like you've said) and intrepret that as something else entirely.

2) As much as I ship John/Teyla as well, you've nailed it on the head. John is very attracted to her but I see nothing that shows that she shares the feelings. There are a few looks and reactions here and there, but again those can been seen as a teammate/friend actions. I know that if I was told that one of my good friends was dead, I'd grab a table for support too.

3) I've also seen the attraction Liz has to John, but again there's nothing from his end. However, I don't ever seen Liz making a move on it. She's a professional. Period. She'd never do anything to hurt their position on Atlantis, and that includes getting involved with a co-worker

4) There are aspects of Fanon I prefer over Canon. I believe that all shipper business should be left to Fanon. Once it's introduced into Canon, it becomes one very long UST until one of them dies or the series comes to an end (JAG anyone?) However, Canon is canon which makes it so appealing.

5) I would much like to see Liz/Ronon interaction. I am a large shipper of the two but that is one ship, I believe, would never even be hinted at in canon. I would like to see more interaction between the two though. They rarely interact. Even the occasional conversation with no one else around. Ronon really only interacts with Teyla and John.

6) John and Teyla have had UST since the pilot. I could see it from the moment she turned around in the first episode. At first it seemed to run both ways but since the 10th episode of Season 1 it seems to be one-sided with John having all the feelings.

[trialia]

I don't see any of that distinction you're claiming you're making coming to the fore here, chère.

Finding points to support your chosen pairing, much?

[tielan]

I said I see Elizabeth->Sheppard and Sheppard->Teyla rather than Sheppard<->Teyla as well as pointing out that this was my interpretation of canon. I would like to see more Teyla->Sheppard (and Elizabeth<->Ronon and Teyla<->Lorne) but am not getting anything from that direction.

People see what they want to see in canon - and yes, what I see in this episode seems to support at least one side of the pairing I like and doesn't seem to encourage a pairing I don't. I did point out that it was my POV, just as others have explained their POVs in the comments here and elsewhere in their own posts.

So yes, I am still making a distinction between fanon and canon. What I write in my Shep/Teyla UST stories is more along the lines what I would like to see, and I'd hope that my depictions have canonical basis in their personalities, but I'm not about to claim that Shep/Teyla is so completely canon all because of a maybe/maybe-not comment by possessed!Shep.

To tell you truly, your comment sounded quite catty, whether you meant it that way or not. So my question now is do you understand the distinction I'm making?

[amalthia]

lovely essay.

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

I completely agree.

Seriously. Good thoughts, and, THANK YOU, based on what actually happens on-screen -- excellent, and something people should focus on more when writing meta...if not fiction, of course; that's a different matter.

Much as I prefer my fanon, la-la-la, you've heard it before, this rings very true to the show.

[ekbatana.livejournal.com]

Ronon and Teyla's relationship comes off as a lot of things to me, but sibling isn't one of them. In what way do you think they have a sibling relationship?

Ronon makes Teyla interesting, of all the main characters she's by far the least interesting. She sparks around him way more than she does around anyone else (and I'm most definitely including Shep in that, who only sparks around Rodney IMO). If the PTB were at one point leaning towards Shep/Teyla, I think Ronon threw a MASSIVE spanner in the works, and I'd go so far as to say that they have shifted focus from Shep/Teyla onto Teyla/Ronon in terms of any pairing coming even close to canon. Though everything is interpretive.

It's interesting you say Joe and TPTB say they were leaning towards Shep/Teyla, because I heard exactly the opposite - that there would be no canon romances on the show, just carefully placed tension. This came directly from Joe and Martin Gero.

They should leave everything fanon, because if they ever did go down the Shep/Teyla route (and I don't think they will) they'd piss off a HELL of a lot more people than they'd please. I know I couldn't keep watching.

[tielan]

Teyla was always the easiest character for me - from day one. Quite oppositely to your take, she's the character with the most interesting background and possible exposition to me, even if she hasn't been explored very much in-show.

In what way do you think they have a sibling relationship?

The food-snatching scene between Teyla and Ronon in The Hive, and every time she subsequently reins him in thereafter is my beef.

The Hive scene looked to me like a little brother snatching his sister's food, she threatens to thump him, and they fight, gleeful in the knowledge that they're going to kick each others' asses, only to be stopped when the parental authority steps in.

And every time she reins him in, I see a big sister reining in her little brother that she just knows is going to say or do something embarrassing, or cause a scene. "Ronon! put that down!" "Ronon! Play nice!" "Ronon! You don't say that to people's faces!" *Teyla facepalms*

This essay also elaborates a little on the Teyla&Ronon friendship and relationship with regards to the events in Trinity.

They're close, sure - and they've got a good solid friendship and trust going between them. I just don't see it as going over the line into UST - and neither does Jason Momoa from the sound of it. (Specific excerpt here.)

As for Joe Flanigan's opinion, there was an interview where he talks about romantic tension between John and Teyla and the writers putting it in.

I tend to go with the actor and PTB comments, largely because I've had long, pointless arguments with people who insisted that 'Character X and Character Y have sparkage!' or 'Character A has amazing chemistry with everyone!' when all they seemed to really be saying was that X/Y was their preferred pairing and A was their favourite character.

People see what they want to see.

because if they ever did go down the Shep/Teyla route (and I don't think they will) they'd piss off a HELL of a lot more people than they'd please

Someone further up in the thread noted that if TPTB of any show wrote to please people, they'd never get anything written.

Honestly, I don't think most viewers (distinct from fans) particularly care about ship or pairings, and they're the people TPTB are trying to sell the show to. So they'll do as they want to do and if the show doesn't sell, it gets cancelled - probably for far more complex reasons than because they introduced a pairing that fans didn't like.

Frankly, I'll keep watching whichever way they go or don't. It's a pleasing, mindless show, and I'm not that invested in my pairings. Give me a few years and I might be, though. :)

[justabi.livejournal.com]

Gimme a reason other than the fact that it wrecks your preferred fanon pairing?

Okay, see this is how it goes for me: That kiss was not about repressed love or affection, it was about *fucking* (hence the scorching hotness). Shep really, really digs guns and fighting and things that go real fast. He gets lusty around *any* of these things. I shall freely admit that *I* get lusty when I see Teyla fight. He gets lusty when he fights with her. He gets lusty when he watches Ronon fight. He gets lusty when someone just *says* shiny new weapon. I do not think that this means he his harboring some kind of deep desire to make anciet gene babies with her. Or Ronon. Though I would concede that he probably would make ancient gene babies with a puddle jumper that came equipt with a rail gun if given the chance.

But! OMG that kiss was hot. *fans self* But then I doubt it would have been as hot without the fighting, as I found it just as hot when she hit Ronon in the face over lettus. Actually, I think if Rodney hadn't finished the dart when he did, Teyla would have been coming home with a pure bred Pegasus bun in the oven, and not because I think she's got squishy warm baby making feelings for Ronon, either.

Seriously, though, I think you are right about Teyla's lack of interest as anything more than friends, probably because John is such a *child* (which I find endearing, and probably so does she, but does not incite a frenzy to make babies, you know?). I think she pretty much thinks *all* the guys in Atlantis are children give the number of times she does that almost eyeroll thing in their directions.

Actually, the only one in Atlantis I can see Teyla having enough mutual respect with *as grown ups* to form any kind of child rearing relationship is Elizabeth, and yeah, I don't think that lesbianism is big in places where breeding is that essential.

[tielan]

The Teyla&Ronon thing is explained in this reply - it's probably easier for you to read that than for me to type it all out again.

People see what they want to see.

However, from comments I've heard by casual viewers (not fans, just people who turn on the telly on a Friday night for something to watch, and who couldn't give a damn about pairings or ship) most people seem to be seeing things from a John/Teyla angle - in the same sort of way that I kept having people ask me, "You watch that show with MacGyver, right? What's with him and the blonde chick?"

Fans interpret to their own whim and desire; it's not always what TPTB intend or what general viewers get from a show.

Although I could see the Teyla/Elizabeth thing. I'm just not big in the femme/slash area.

[ekbatana.livejournal.com]

This is where I get kinda mad at the writers to be honest. They know they're never going to go there, WE know they're never going to go there but they keep teasing us with these little moments between different pairings (they've said they throw in slashy stuff too).

No canon relationship is EVER going to happen on the show, but the tension keeps all the various shippers tuning in.

I'm a bit confused about your statement that "most" people see a John/Teyla angle though - aside from one VERY ambiguous comment from Not!John there's really been nothing different about John/Teyla's interactions compared to John/Anyone else;s interactions to focus on.

[tielan]

Those are the responses I've received from people who 'just' watch the show, turn it off and then never think twice about it until next week, or people who catch an episode here and there in the background. I'm not going to tell them that they're 'right' or 'wrong' - that's just what they see. It came up during a conversation about fandom pairing wars.

As fans our perspectives are very different. We tend to meta about every little thing that's said or done, fitting it into our preconceived views of the show. General viewers just take the 'easiest' or most obvious explanation and run with that.

Which seems to usually mean that characters are het unless they're specifically depicted or stated to be gay, and general interaction doesn't necessarily mean romantic interest. So an ambiguous statement from not!John may be enough to make the general viewer lean in a John/Teyla direction. I don't know for sure, I'm not a general viewer and I wasn't in a position where I could really ask the person about their perspectives on TV show relationships.

People see what they want to see: I see some John/Teyla in canon - not as much as I'd like, but them's the breaks. I write them in fanon, running off interpretations from canon - as does every fan of the show when they write their pairing.

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

The writers and the actors claim the characters are het in canon, I'm going to take them at their word.

Do you mind if I ask where this can be found? I'd not heard that before.