Thinking it over, Atlantis had a great opportunity to develop in a different direction from SG1 in the start.
They've pretty much wasted all their opportunities and are more or less stuck as a cheap copy of SG1 - without even the immediate threat to Earth that was presented in SG1. As I noted to
dirty_diana, we're a rather selfish bunch.
As it stands now, the show is strongly Earth-centric, with an alien enemy that the Earth people are the only ones visibly fighting against. (The Gennii are assumed to be fighting, but they're hardly accorded anything near equal status in the fight.) The main character and chief mover is a military man with a streak of rebelliousness; his primary assistant in the business of saving the galaxy is a technologically competent scientific type. Ironically, I find Rodney more of an analogue with Sam Carter in SG1, than with Daniel Jackson. Elizabeth holds the primary functional role of Daniel in the show, although Teyla fills that role on the team. And while Teyla is functionally a Teal'c analogue (alien ally and connection to the rest of the galaxy), Ronon holds the alien barbarian aspect of Teal'c. My personal interpretation is that Teyla's also a Sam analogue emotionally (as in Shep's romantic interest) and a Jack analogue in an organisational sense (she's been shown to keep track of what her team is doing and who's best to do what, more than I see John doing).
Other than the fact that they're repeating episodes (Epiphany being the equivalent of 100 Days, Inferno holding some significant resemblances to Fail Safe in solution, and Progeny having a curious resemblance to the events of Unnatural Selection), we now have the Replicators as bad guys. Again. Stargate SG-1: Season Three/Season Four, Season Four/Season Five, the midpoint of Season Six, and all of the second half of Season Eight.
I think TPTB missed the boat on Atlantis. Sure, I love the characters and their possibilities, but the most interesting characters are still only possibilities since SGA still focuses on the Earth-centric military-scientific angle - and has dialled down the diplomatic angle.
Having set up a civilian expedition in another galaxy with no way back...wouldn't it make sense to really integrate into that galaxy? To seriously make friends and allies, and not be such suspicious pricks? But even at the height of their isolation in Season One, the show seemed to hold an attitude of 'Earth is right and sovreign, Pegasus is unimportant' - which was only exacerbated in subsequent seasons.
They have a female civilian leader for the expedition who's been given a negotiating history...yet she's rarely shown to negotiate, let alone with any of the cultures they meet. The show could have been more about Earthlings negotiating a tricky path between cultures that have equivalent weaponry but who are willing to talk turkey if they're not condescended towards. Not everything has to descend into Cold-War status the way things did with the Gennii. Sure, it makes for drama, but there are other ways to develop drama. Laura Roslin vs. Tom Zarek, anyone? I ain't never seen those two take up weapons against each other, but their early fights sizzle with Laura's hatred vs. Tom's ambition. And that could have been a big part of the situation - the ups and downs, the changing alliances, with Earth walking into an already loaded situation.
They created a female alien leader but missed the opportunity to develop anything about her people - and patriarchy is the implied default yet again, where I would have supposed that matriarchy would be more likely since proof of maternity is unimpeachable - who must have had some cool bits and pieces once-upon-a-time (firelighters, anyone?), but who are dismissed wholesale because they're not technocrats in the now. She's got a hereditary connection with the enemy they're trying to fight...what if other cultures have similarly gifted people? This legend of people taken by the Wraith and then returned must have happened elsewhere - surely someone made the connection before this?
They've got a biogeneticist in their midst who worked on some kind of antivirus to stop the Wraith from being able to feed back in S1 Poisoning The Well - why didn't that go anywhere? They kept working on the Wraith humanizing virus, why not the Wraith anti-virus (or whatever it was)? There's a lot of places they could go if they were working a biological weapon.
Now, they've got a guy who spent seven years eluding the Wraith - day to day, hand-to-hand. Ex-military, from another planet that was destroyed, with the suggestion that a remant of his people are still scattered around the galaxy. He's got front-line practical experience that Sheppard uses as an argument for including him on his team...and then rarely actually uses.
While I'm aware that the writing team for SGA is essentially the same as the writing team for SG1, I still feel...cheated, I suppose. There was a lot of potential for SGA to not be about Earth. For it to be about developing and negotiating relationships, for it to be a commentary on real-world politics and bite-you-in-the-ass consequences that then have to be dealt with and aren't dismissed by a general's wave of the hand.
I'm a storyteller. And SGA cries out to me like a million voices suddenly silenced.
I loved SG1. But when they set Atlantis in another galaxy with a civilian negotiating leader, I expected that they'd use that other galaxy to go boldly go where few sci-fi programs have gone before, to use that leader to negotiate and not just prop up the military. I hoped they'd develop a new paradigm, go to new places in character conflict and plot development, do things that the Stargate franchise haven't tried before.
Instead, it's a military man and his scientific geek running around spreading the Earth-superiority all over again.
I guess, basically, I want SGA to be written by the people who write BSG.
That would rock.
They've pretty much wasted all their opportunities and are more or less stuck as a cheap copy of SG1 - without even the immediate threat to Earth that was presented in SG1. As I noted to
As it stands now, the show is strongly Earth-centric, with an alien enemy that the Earth people are the only ones visibly fighting against. (The Gennii are assumed to be fighting, but they're hardly accorded anything near equal status in the fight.) The main character and chief mover is a military man with a streak of rebelliousness; his primary assistant in the business of saving the galaxy is a technologically competent scientific type. Ironically, I find Rodney more of an analogue with Sam Carter in SG1, than with Daniel Jackson. Elizabeth holds the primary functional role of Daniel in the show, although Teyla fills that role on the team. And while Teyla is functionally a Teal'c analogue (alien ally and connection to the rest of the galaxy), Ronon holds the alien barbarian aspect of Teal'c. My personal interpretation is that Teyla's also a Sam analogue emotionally (as in Shep's romantic interest) and a Jack analogue in an organisational sense (she's been shown to keep track of what her team is doing and who's best to do what, more than I see John doing).
Other than the fact that they're repeating episodes (Epiphany being the equivalent of 100 Days, Inferno holding some significant resemblances to Fail Safe in solution, and Progeny having a curious resemblance to the events of Unnatural Selection), we now have the Replicators as bad guys. Again. Stargate SG-1: Season Three/Season Four, Season Four/Season Five, the midpoint of Season Six, and all of the second half of Season Eight.
I think TPTB missed the boat on Atlantis. Sure, I love the characters and their possibilities, but the most interesting characters are still only possibilities since SGA still focuses on the Earth-centric military-scientific angle - and has dialled down the diplomatic angle.
Having set up a civilian expedition in another galaxy with no way back...wouldn't it make sense to really integrate into that galaxy? To seriously make friends and allies, and not be such suspicious pricks? But even at the height of their isolation in Season One, the show seemed to hold an attitude of 'Earth is right and sovreign, Pegasus is unimportant' - which was only exacerbated in subsequent seasons.
They have a female civilian leader for the expedition who's been given a negotiating history...yet she's rarely shown to negotiate, let alone with any of the cultures they meet. The show could have been more about Earthlings negotiating a tricky path between cultures that have equivalent weaponry but who are willing to talk turkey if they're not condescended towards. Not everything has to descend into Cold-War status the way things did with the Gennii. Sure, it makes for drama, but there are other ways to develop drama. Laura Roslin vs. Tom Zarek, anyone? I ain't never seen those two take up weapons against each other, but their early fights sizzle with Laura's hatred vs. Tom's ambition. And that could have been a big part of the situation - the ups and downs, the changing alliances, with Earth walking into an already loaded situation.
They created a female alien leader but missed the opportunity to develop anything about her people - and patriarchy is the implied default yet again, where I would have supposed that matriarchy would be more likely since proof of maternity is unimpeachable - who must have had some cool bits and pieces once-upon-a-time (firelighters, anyone?), but who are dismissed wholesale because they're not technocrats in the now. She's got a hereditary connection with the enemy they're trying to fight...what if other cultures have similarly gifted people? This legend of people taken by the Wraith and then returned must have happened elsewhere - surely someone made the connection before this?
They've got a biogeneticist in their midst who worked on some kind of antivirus to stop the Wraith from being able to feed back in S1 Poisoning The Well - why didn't that go anywhere? They kept working on the Wraith humanizing virus, why not the Wraith anti-virus (or whatever it was)? There's a lot of places they could go if they were working a biological weapon.
Now, they've got a guy who spent seven years eluding the Wraith - day to day, hand-to-hand. Ex-military, from another planet that was destroyed, with the suggestion that a remant of his people are still scattered around the galaxy. He's got front-line practical experience that Sheppard uses as an argument for including him on his team...and then rarely actually uses.
While I'm aware that the writing team for SGA is essentially the same as the writing team for SG1, I still feel...cheated, I suppose. There was a lot of potential for SGA to not be about Earth. For it to be about developing and negotiating relationships, for it to be a commentary on real-world politics and bite-you-in-the-ass consequences that then have to be dealt with and aren't dismissed by a general's wave of the hand.
I'm a storyteller. And SGA cries out to me like a million voices suddenly silenced.
I loved SG1. But when they set Atlantis in another galaxy with a civilian negotiating leader, I expected that they'd use that other galaxy to go boldly go where few sci-fi programs have gone before, to use that leader to negotiate and not just prop up the military. I hoped they'd develop a new paradigm, go to new places in character conflict and plot development, do things that the Stargate franchise haven't tried before.
Instead, it's a military man and his scientific geek running around spreading the Earth-superiority all over again.
I guess, basically, I want SGA to be written by the people who write BSG.
That would rock.
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I think Atlantis is pretty far up that certain creek and without that rather necessary implement. Recent spoilers only make that even more apparent.
I pretty much agree with everything you've said (er..except the John/Teyla parts of course *blinks innocently*). I wouldn't go so far as to wish for Stargate: Galactica, but only because I like the campy-laughy-occasional happy ending-ness of the Stargate franchise. I do think they didn't do the Athosians anything like justice because every time they have ANYTHING LIKE DEVELOPMENT it's a huge problem.
Often requiring bad dresses.In any case one of my bugbears is the lack of thinking as to making Ronon's little imunity available to the galaxy at large, but mostly I try to just sit back and not take it seriously. It makes me kind of sad that I can't subject SGA to the kind of criteria that I make BSG jump through on a weekly basis, but it really does hurt less that way. I am totally not committed to this show anymore. I am here for The Pretty.
Which is kind of sad, actually...but there's not a lot I can do.
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And it seems that most people are only in Atlantis for the pretty now.
Recently, I've thought about leaving SGA, the way I did SG1. Bang, no more Atlantis. Drop everything and run for the exits. Return II seems like a good place to cease watching, and if they end up doing anything cool with the others later on (particularly Teyla) then I'll consider picking it up again.
It's a thought, anyway. :)
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I'm not sure if you've seen 3x12 Echos, but ... not to give anything away, but I was much more pleased with this ep than 3x11. 3x11 was hurried, with too many wasted ideas to make it a truly good ep (they finally get Ancients and then .. what? everyone dies? :: rolls eyes ::) but 3x12 did a lot more team-building then I expected.
I'm not saying that I'm into SGA for anything but the fanfic (so pretty). But as I haven't seen BSG beyond season one (I know, I know - no spoilers! Christmas is coming up, after all) I don't have that show to fall back on.
Mind you, now that BSG is doing so well, I wonder what sci-fi we'll see next. And if someone will be daring enough to take it somewhere different.
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I'm a storyteller. And SGA cries out to me like a million voices suddenly silenced.----
I have to agree with that. SGA had so many amazing places they could go, but unlike BSG, the writers don’t seem to like consequences, only big damn explosions. Which is so sad, really, since it’s another freaking galaxy and anything could happen.
----I do think they didn't do the Athosians anything like justice because every time they have ANYTHING LIKE DEVELOPMENT it's a huge problem. Often requiring bad dresses.----
Snork. ROFL. I know! I nearly stabbed my eyes out after that episode. They could have shown Teyla to be as awesome as she is in my head, not in that dorky dress that just killed me. Daniel would have been hopping up-and-down mad about Teyla’s culture. If he had been there. Anyway.
I don’t think I can stop watching, because the gems hidden among the sheer dren will make it possible to continue my own universe in my head, but… it’s a lot like the LOTR movies. I shall remember with great selectiveness.
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*sigh*
I think that a part of me believes that all the characters are much cooler, more complex, and intrinsically more interesting than they're portrayed on the show. That they're all "real people" somewhere beneath the oh-so-convenient stereotypes that TPTB and fandom insist on putting over their heads with every episode and every fanfic.
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I probably should not mention that I love that pairing.
You commented on the Genii situation, but I have to say that I think what happened between Atlantis and the Genii wasn't unrealistic, considering who they are. What I'd like to see now is the building of the Genii-Atlantis alliance. Let Liz negotiate, dammit, and not just for John's life. It'll be more interesting now, after all their bumps, to see Ladon and Liz negotiate with each other.
The SG-1 parallels didn't bother me much until the Replicators came. Don't get me wrong, love them, but really- don't we already have an enemy? One that has a history with the galaxy that we're in, and therefore more open for plotlines dealing with
Teylacharacters from the Pegasus Galaxy?I guess, basically, I want SGA to be written by the people who write BSG.
Ahh, that would be amazing. But to keep it light-hearted, a mix of those writers and "Firefly"'s writers. You'd get the most amazing plots and character development.
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*whispers* Liz/Kolya
Regarding the Gennii...I'm more of a view with the people who've noted that since the Athosians had prior experience with the Gennii...why aren't the Gennii dealing with Teyla and her people? Why wasn't Teyla in there in Common Ground noting her history with the Gennii?
I also would like to know why the Replicators, with their hatred of all things Wraith as well as Ancient, haven't cottoned on to Teyla's Wraithgenes.
And, yeah, bringing in the Replicators seems to just be a way of eliminating all point of being in another galaxy, having bad guys that are relevant and inimical to that galaxy, and having allies that already know anything about fighting that enemy...
God. Stargate Atlantis is really about getting rid of all aspects of Pegasus culture that might have any kind of significant influence on Earth.
Now I'm depressed.
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Okay.
I agree with you :) And clearly I'm having issues with Altantis as well! hehehe
And I love John/Teyla and I'm convinced that Ronon and Elizabeth should get together and soon.... Soon being the operative word.
But that said, I think the main problem for Atlantis was they had the same writers working on two shows that is the biggest problem in my book. But considering that... They wrote the amazing/tragic love story of Daniel and Share (sp?) so why not write the amazing love story for Atlantis?
Oh well... At least they gave us Ronon :)
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I'm still of the belief that, properly done, it could be awesome and, contrary to the immediate yowls of a zillion cynics, not take over the show. (Kara/Lee might have taken over the BSG fandom, but they're just one thread in the whole tapestry of the show - now that, that is how you work a relationship in canon!)
So, no, I don't put a lot of faith in a love story for Atlantis. It would be damned interesting to see how a cross-culture relationship actually works on a day to day basis (ie. Shep/Teyla or Ronon/Weir) but they lack the vehicle in which to do it - because of the choices the writers have made from the earliest season to ignore the Pegasus culture and only have "Earth people" matter.
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We have a bunch of people from Earth, who have lived on Earth for their whole lives, who have Earth sensibilities and, in fact, grew up basically assuming that Earth was the only important thing in the universe -- would you really expect them to, in three short years, completely change (as a whole) their entire outlook on everything? Not only change their outlook, but make all of their Official Actions reflect that new outlook? They're not behaving any differently than I would except Earth Humans to behave.
Of course, it's a fair bet that the writers AREN'T going to do anything fantastic with them and turn the world upside-down, but we just don't KNOW what's going to happen in the long run. I mean, this show still has a long time to go, if the length SG-1's run is anything to go by.
I guess we have different perspectives on this, though -- I never expected SGA to be much different from SG-1 in any substantial way, so I haven't been disappointed by it at all (except for season two). I'm just happy that the characters are more . . . well, frankly, I'm just happy that Rodney's around. *g*
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Sure, the expedition is from Earth, and, as such, are going to look that way for direction. However, I'm not sure I see the point of being in another galaxy when that galaxy and the people in it are treated as though they doesn't exist in any form but to serve the expedition's purposes - rather like America and the Native Americans during the pioneering years.
That's an issue with the writers more than the characters, although I'd like the characters more if those who are doing nothing got big somethings to do, and those who do everything got a little less screentime. Then again, my preference for a character tends to be inversely proportional to their current apportion of screentime.
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So I agree - I really think Pegasus could have been developed more. We haven't had a civilization besides the Genii (and they don't really count, having been broken and bled for plot ideas) who have lasted beyond one episode.
But again ... I liked 3x12. Really liked it. Team building and Prettiness. Not BSG, but, hey - the writers here *aren't* of that quality. We know that, and we're just going to have to deal.
(which is why I'm a fanfic whore. Yummy yummy fanon)
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*snorts*
See, I like fanon...I just prefer canon. Good canon. Then again, good canon usually means I don't feel the need to write fanfic - such as BSG. It's such a tight show that I feel like there's so little I can add.
I don't know. This issue of
egoEarthcentricity didn't nag me quite so much in SG-1 - possibly because they were on Earth. Now, they're somewhere else, but they're not using either it or the characters from that galaxy even halfway.And it really bugs me.
*sighs*
I've heard 3.12 is good - I have a friend who downloaded and watched this evening and I had to smack her several times to stop her spoiling.
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I think the problem is something you touched on -- that Stargate still ultimately has the Star Trek mentaility problem: "and in the end, even if one episode turns out bad, even if we've killed a well loved character off, everything will turn out well, and we'll all join hands and sing Kumbayah."
BSG doesn't pull punches.
Can you see Elizabeth Weir saying, "Throw him out the airlock"? (replicators dont' count). Can you see one of the more minor characters that is generally thought of as less violent (say, Zelenka) grabbing a gun and killing someone who has caused grevious injury to another person on Atlantis? Hell, you don't even see the characters do more than kiss. Sure, we all want to see Sheppard in that tiny towel Apollo "wore", but, seriously, do they expect us to think that these folks dont' have sex lives?
And sure, two guys actually *gasp* kissed on Atlantis, and the male lead got tortured but good (but, hey, in the end, he's JUST FINE!), and the big scary Alien Boy had his John Woo episode, but in the end the show is still namby pamby we-are-the-world smily friendly "science fiction."
I love it, but it's the love you have for something you know can be oh! so much better.
[DO YOU HEAR ME, GUY IN MY ICON??? SHAPE UP!!!]
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The "Lizzie"-fen would have conniptions. There was kerfuffle when she allowed Shep and Ronon to beat up Kavanaugh back in Critical Mass because it showed her in a less-than-admirable light: "the end justifies the means".
I love it, but it's the love you have for something you know can be oh! so much better.
Exactly. It's the love and admiration of the potential to be great - the possibility.
I know I'm in the minority in thinking that the show could seriously go places if they stopped focusing on Sheppard and McKay...but then I'd also rather be different and stand out from the crowd than popular. Not that I'm managing either right now.
Incidentally, who is that in your icon?
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Pfft. I do not like Weir. I do not like her at all, Sam I Am Not. But this was one of the FEW times I actually liked the character. I think what Weir did there was *wrong*, but I like that she was allowed to BE wrong. I just wish there had been more fall-out for her bad actions.
But no, instead we gloss over it and sing Kumbaya again.
I know I'm in the minority in thinking that the show could seriously go places if they stopped focusing on Sheppard and McKay...but then I'd also rather be different and stand out from the crowd than popular. Not that I'm managing either right now.
FWIW, I'm there with you. When they concentrate on other people it's like they've thrown them a bone. Here you go, Fido, now go sit in the back again. They've got this supporting cast of people they just kinda mow over. The closest they've come to really doing anything with anyone else, for more than just a "here's a bone" episode, is Beckett -- and look what they're doing with him.
BLEH.
Incidentally, who is that in your icon?
Martin Wood, who has been directing Stargate episodes since S1 of SG-1, and is one of the producers of Atlantis. I think he's a fantastic director, but as a producer I'd like to smack him around for a good while.
(I also think he's incredibly gorgeous and a total nutjob to boot. )
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It's my biggest beef with the show.
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I'm hoping that with only one show on the air, there will be more focus on the remaining show and possibily better writing, but I'm not holding my breath.
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I had a really long conversation in an episode discussion with someone about the usage of different characters. Joe Flanigan has said at a couple of his latest convention appearances that the reason why Teyla doesn't have any backstory is because Rachel Luttrell isn't confident enough to go up to the writers and demand more screen time for her character in which the storyline is meaningful to Teyla. The person I was talking to said that it was almost like that was the writer's excuse for not doing their homework. Joe said that Ronon needed at least part of his back story out, so that's how Sateda came to be.
It also bothers me that Elizabeth Weir has very little about herself too. She's a negotiator, but we haven't really seen her negotiate. What, are the writers expecting Torri Higginson to come up to them and ask for a negotiation trip? And she's supposedly the leader, but it barely seems like she's in charge. As you said, military man and science geek running around and in control of the place. It bothers me also because Carl Bender wrote a few episodes, two of which were both Weir-centric: Before I Sleep and The Real World. It seems as he's the ONLY one really eager to write bits about Elizabeth. What about Brad Wright? He's written some episode, why doesn't he write about the character he created? WHY DON'T the WRITERS and the CREATORS write stuff about the people they created, INSTEAD of JUST Rodney McKay? Hell, Season 3? Two episodes are completely about Rodney, and they both fully contain his name in the title. On Battlestar Galactica, it seems that every character has the same amount of storyline.
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In some senses I really agree with what you're saying here. There have definitely been opportunities to go further in certain directions and haven't taken advantage of them. I had hopes that episodes after Trinity would be more in line with a realisation that they don't know everything, and I've always kind of hoped for some kind of consequences/confrontation with Teyla and her people given that she spends most of her time trailing around after earthers. I have the sneaking suspicion that something intersting involving Beckett and the wraith may be coming (at least I hope)
I haven't given up hope with Lizzie, yet though. I actually see her overall arc being rather consistent. I think she does do a lot of negotiating and I wish they would show that more. But I love that in the first season, she was very hesitant about force and trying to be very moral and she's slowly gotten to a more ruthless practical point. I don't neccessarily have faith that it will be dealt with in an interesting way, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for a while longer yet. My hope is that it will somehow get combined with her absolute worship of the Ancients who we can see from the creation of the Asurans and various other things are not exactly angels themselves.
I'm always curious when I come across posts that portray SGA as a cheap rip-poff of SG1... I don't really care for SG1 that much and yet I love SGA, so comparing the two and having SGA lose seems odd to me. Some of the stories are similar in nature and I am sometimes annoyed at the forced insertion of SG1 characters into SGA but I see the two shows as having vastly different characters. Sheppard is nothing like O'Niell except that he doesn't like authority, Sam reminds me of Cadman (if anybody) and Ronon doesn't talk a lot but if you pay attention to his body language, he's about as snarky as Rodney. Sometimes the writers spend too many episodes with the 4-some out doing their thing or the get too Mary-Sue with Rodney, but I think SGA has more variety than SG1 overall.
Also, I loved some of the later seasons of DS9 for it's grittiness and willingness to have the good guys not be the *good* guys, but I tried watching BSG a few times and found that the characters were gritty to the extent that they stopped being likable to me, or even realistic. I didn't care if they lived or died. I's sure that's just a matter of taste, but what I meant to say by bringing that up is that the audience for the 2 shows is different. I know people who like both, but nobody who loves both... maybe if the people who wrote BSG wrote SGA, the people who love SGA would run away. *shrugs*
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I feel like other sci fi shows on the otherhand, like BSG and Farscape think about what they are doing to their characters and make sure it has an affect. Or even B5 with the whole Sheridan - "if you go to Z'ha'dum you will die" - it happens as it was supposed to. Or D'argo and Chiana on Farscape. Chiana has sex w/ D'argo's son and that has a big impact on characters. It takes a really long time for D'argo to forgive both her and his son. And he doesn't forgive his son for a long time.
SG1 and SGA are dominated by action. They went with the Star Trek formula of every episode having to be about saving something. What I do like about this second half of season 3 if that they have started to remember that Ronon and Teyla are actual characters. And they are letting them be more than quiet members of the team. They have had some great interactions the last two episodes, and not only with eachother. There is a great Teyla/John scene in Irresponsible that illustrates their relationship beautifully.
I don't think the SG1 or SGA writers know how to write women, and I hope that changes b/c as you pointed out, they have two very interesting female characters that they essentially squander. And I would love for the characters to explore the fact that Carson is essentially trying to figure out a way to commit genocide. He is skirting the limits of biomedical ethics, and this is something that the show is not dealing with... b/c it's a topic that requires a lot of emotional investment and that is not something the show provides. Frankly, I would love to know who the bad guys for the season are. Most of the episodes from season 3 are essentially stand alone. There is no real arciness. And I'm so annoyed at how they handled the Return Part II - if you go to my lj, you can read me episode reviews, which tend to start out with "As is typical of SGA's episodic nature...."