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And this is why I probably shouldn't go reading other people's reactions, because it sparks off all my own thoughts and feelings
Question: is nobody disturbed by the fact that the time lapse of five years means that there are a lot of people who have moved on and half the population who think that things are exactly the same as at the moment they were dusted?
So, you get dusted, your husband doesn’t. He finds someone else in those five years that have passed, they have a kid, and then suddenly you turn up and he’s married to someone else and living with her and now you have a whole new set of trauma to process because he’s lived through that grief and you haven’t.
It’s like HALF A WORLD OF STEVE ROGERS staring at the world and thinking, “I had a date on Saturday and I’m never going to get there...
This is why the solution in my story involved pulling everything back to the moment when it changed, with only a year passing and a kind of ‘it will feel like a dream’ feel to the memories. What was it Dean Koontz asserted in the novel ‘Lightning’? “Destiny struggles to assert the pattern that is meant to be.” Which, of course, requires a certain amount of narrative certainty that the pattern they are setting down is ‘meant to be’. I’m sure the architects and leaders of the Third Reich thought it was meant to be. Luckily for many of us, it wasn’t.
But at least Koontz ascertained the issue with Time Travel: that the time traveller can change their future, which may include the past of everyone in that future – the terrible paradox of time travel.
It’s the paradoxes of time travel that mean 2014 Thanos is now missing from the MCU cosmos. He and his armies were dispatched by Tony’s snapture in Endgame 2019) which means he will never come to be in Infinity War 2018 snapturing the universe which means there is no need for Tony’s snapture in Endgame 2019… Returning the stones won’t do anything – they got the stones from the past, they need to get them back there so they can be there when the timeline they lived through needs them. Which presents an interesting problem with the Tesseract, since Loki took it and vanished with it in 2012, but obviously was brought back to that point very shortly afterwards with the Tesseract so Thor can take Loki and the Tesseract back to Asgard at the end of Avengers 2012....
Also, Rumlow, Rollins, and the STRIKE team. Obviously the sceptre (and what did they do with that, Steve just took the stones, not the scepter and it would have gotten destroyed when Thanos blasted the facility) and the mind stone got back to Strucker for him to create Wanda and Pietro, and so that Vision could be created for 2018Thanos to recreate and kill in taking the Mind Stone...but then there's the issue that 2012Steve doesn't have the foggiest idea that HYDRA is happening but the STRIKE team think he's on their side, and when they talk to Pierce who says 'no, actually, Cap isn't on our side' then what do they think? Also, pre-2014 Steve now he knows that 'Bucky Is Alive' so...maybe he's shocked in 2014, but he should be prepared for 2016 Rumlow in Civil War trying to distract him and...
See? It's a REALLY COOL CONCEPT but if you think it through it FALLS APART. SHEESH.
And that's not even questioning whether Steve Rogers could actually, as the character he's been presented, sit back and do nothing for the better part of 70 years. Like, maybe the five year gap is supposed to show that he's changed? He's learned helplessness, just like the rest of us.
I admit: it's easier to be angry at plotholes you could pilot a freaking Kree Destroyer through than fans who are just trying to scrape what enjoyment they can out of this.
I really do miss when I could just enjoy these movies. I think I lost that later than most people – after Age of Ultron when the news for Civil War came out, tbh. Maybe that’s why I enjoyed Dr. Strange and GotG2: because they didn’t make my head hurt. (While Civil War made my heart hurt with the sheer lack of Maria in the storyline that introduced her in the comics, even as an antagonist over the Accords or something.)
I don't know if it will be the panacea for all ills, per se; you're probably wanting your favourite rather than mine, and the fixits will be coming thick and fast, but seriously, imma point you at the other side of infinity for something that yes, made my head hurt while writing, but which I'm pretty sure for which I closed all the really huge plotholes...
Oh, and (nearly) everyone lives. Swear to God.
Question: is nobody disturbed by the fact that the time lapse of five years means that there are a lot of people who have moved on and half the population who think that things are exactly the same as at the moment they were dusted?
So, you get dusted, your husband doesn’t. He finds someone else in those five years that have passed, they have a kid, and then suddenly you turn up and he’s married to someone else and living with her and now you have a whole new set of trauma to process because he’s lived through that grief and you haven’t.
It’s like HALF A WORLD OF STEVE ROGERS staring at the world and thinking, “I had a date on Saturday and I’m never going to get there...
This is why the solution in my story involved pulling everything back to the moment when it changed, with only a year passing and a kind of ‘it will feel like a dream’ feel to the memories. What was it Dean Koontz asserted in the novel ‘Lightning’? “Destiny struggles to assert the pattern that is meant to be.” Which, of course, requires a certain amount of narrative certainty that the pattern they are setting down is ‘meant to be’. I’m sure the architects and leaders of the Third Reich thought it was meant to be. Luckily for many of us, it wasn’t.
But at least Koontz ascertained the issue with Time Travel: that the time traveller can change their future, which may include the past of everyone in that future – the terrible paradox of time travel.
It’s the paradoxes of time travel that mean 2014 Thanos is now missing from the MCU cosmos. He and his armies were dispatched by Tony’s snapture in Endgame 2019) which means he will never come to be in Infinity War 2018 snapturing the universe which means there is no need for Tony’s snapture in Endgame 2019… Returning the stones won’t do anything – they got the stones from the past, they need to get them back there so they can be there when the timeline they lived through needs them. Which presents an interesting problem with the Tesseract, since Loki took it and vanished with it in 2012, but obviously was brought back to that point very shortly afterwards with the Tesseract so Thor can take Loki and the Tesseract back to Asgard at the end of Avengers 2012....
Also, Rumlow, Rollins, and the STRIKE team. Obviously the sceptre (and what did they do with that, Steve just took the stones, not the scepter and it would have gotten destroyed when Thanos blasted the facility) and the mind stone got back to Strucker for him to create Wanda and Pietro, and so that Vision could be created for 2018Thanos to recreate and kill in taking the Mind Stone...but then there's the issue that 2012Steve doesn't have the foggiest idea that HYDRA is happening but the STRIKE team think he's on their side, and when they talk to Pierce who says 'no, actually, Cap isn't on our side' then what do they think? Also, pre-2014 Steve now he knows that 'Bucky Is Alive' so...maybe he's shocked in 2014, but he should be prepared for 2016 Rumlow in Civil War trying to distract him and...
See? It's a REALLY COOL CONCEPT but if you think it through it FALLS APART. SHEESH.
And that's not even questioning whether Steve Rogers could actually, as the character he's been presented, sit back and do nothing for the better part of 70 years. Like, maybe the five year gap is supposed to show that he's changed? He's learned helplessness, just like the rest of us.
I admit: it's easier to be angry at plotholes you could pilot a freaking Kree Destroyer through than fans who are just trying to scrape what enjoyment they can out of this.
I really do miss when I could just enjoy these movies. I think I lost that later than most people – after Age of Ultron when the news for Civil War came out, tbh. Maybe that’s why I enjoyed Dr. Strange and GotG2: because they didn’t make my head hurt. (While Civil War made my heart hurt with the sheer lack of Maria in the storyline that introduced her in the comics, even as an antagonist over the Accords or something.)
I don't know if it will be the panacea for all ills, per se; you're probably wanting your favourite rather than mine, and the fixits will be coming thick and fast, but seriously, imma point you at the other side of infinity for something that yes, made my head hurt while writing, but which I'm pretty sure for which I closed all the really huge plotholes...
Oh, and (nearly) everyone lives. Swear to God.
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It’s like HALF A WORLD OF STEVE ROGERS staring at the world
That's a good way of putting it! Half the population is still going to be SUPER TRAUMATIZED.
Which presents an interesting problem with the Tesseract, since Loki took it and vanished with it in 2012
I think that's going to be the basis for the Loki TV show, since it was something about him running around in time and affecting human history. Like "Is Vision going to be brought back in Endgame?" Watch the TV show. If you want to see Sam adjusting to the shield apparently, watch the TV show. I feel kinda monkey paw'd on this because I was always complaining about how the movies are too short and they get turned into action-packed toy-selling-stravaganzas, and I do think short series are a much better way to adapt comics (like the Netflix shows). But really at this point I'm like, fuck you Disney, I feel too yanked around to keep giving them money and attention.
I dunno, I always think of something Whedon said, "Buffy happy, show good. Buffy in pain, show BETTER." And he started ripping apart the team in AoU and they never really recovered. And now we get this movie where they come back together, except WELP it's also the end! WTF. It feels like the white guys who get famous for pop culture stuff feel they want to do Really Deep Things and Be Respected, so you get shit like Buffy S6 and Infinity War/Endgame where it's just fucking depressing. And the stakes get bigger and bigger until it's ridiculous.
Anyway I didn't mean to just rag away on the movie if you liked it. I was just really boggled by a couple of pure plot choices they made, and the five-year timeskip is definitely one of them.
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*sigh*
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It's just terrible if you actually look at it as a story with logical outcomes and not as entertainment, if that makes sense.
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It does make sense. But it hits a lot of my personal squicks as the last two movies have also done, so yeah. I'm sadly very, very out.
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I did really enjoy it the film, it was good fun, but the time travel was the most fucked up thing ever.
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Homesteading is A LOT OF PHYSICAL EFFORT. And sure, Tony can build bots, but those then need repair and has he seen the state of farm equipment lately?
Plus, his kid is eating chips out of a plastic packet. Like...they still have production on those with half the world in disarray? They show the city unkempt and tumbling down, crime kingpins taking over in Tokyo and Mexico (but not in New York/America?)...
...
...
I don't know if it's just that people don't think these things through because they can't or because they just don't...
(Admittedly, this is a movie about people with superpowers - all of whom are white and somewhat surprisingly in America) but still...just thinking about the consequences says that some of these things have not been thought through properly.)
And I get you on the 'enjoy the film but...' point SO HARD.
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//facepalm
After FIVE YEARS of half of Everything vanishing in the twinkling of an eye? How do these people think industrialized civilization works?
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Which at least makes sense from a vague ecoterrorist view, becasue then you have THE SAME RESOURCES being used by only HALF THE PEOPLE.
If you halve the resources as well...
No. Sorry, that's not sane even by "in-universe Thanos" standards, let alone stupid white male ecoterrorist standards.
And, yeah, I don't think these guys have ever given thought to how late stage capitalism actually works. Seriously. Steve would actually be more practicallyutilised travelling around the country showing people how to plant Victory gardens, how to survive with a seriously devalued monetary standard, than counselling urbanites on how to deal with loss...
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https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2018/07/08/kevin-feige-still-wont-tell-us-all-marvels-future-plans
I do need to confirm something about the outcome of Infinity War, and apologies if you’ve addressed this – the end of Ant-Man and the Wasp led to conversations. Are half the animals dead? Are half of the horses gone? Half of the ants?
Yes! Yes. All life.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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(Although that's another issue: half of sentient life? Maybe sentient life is holding back some aspect of an ecosystem that's otherwise going to overrun their territory, so you come back five years later and all your people are dead...
...oh lord, the more I think about this the worse it gets.)
Feige is wrong. So so wrong.
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My husband the science geek started sputtering so hard when I told him 1) everything got Snapped 2) everything got unSnapped! but the EFFECTS of the Snap were not undone. I don't even know what they think they were going there.
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I have no plans to see the movie, and if I could trust them to deal well with such an issue, I might! ... but alas, I cannot trust them.
I can't deal with gigantic plot holes and characterization that gets twisted around for plot purposes and such.
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It seems really cool on the surface, but the instant you peel off the skin of it, there's so much *facepalm* and "what?" and "oh, hells to the no"...
*sighs*
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I didnt think it had been half of everything until the Scott staring at the plants and hummingbird thing as proof it worked and just *cries* (the thing about whales recovering because less people, but then *face palms*)
I just.... there is a lot of stuff to o.O about with those bits. (And yeah, Tony not wanting to sacrifice his family was part of it, but the time travel rules also meant it had to have the five year gap, only.... Welcome to Avengers: Swiss Cheese)
I keep being thrown by people going 'it ended with hope and everything better' and thinking, but HOW WILL IT WORK? so much trauma, so little considered
and then disney+ shows - which being disney will likely deal with none of this either.
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Kids GROW UP A LOT in 5 years! One of twins caught up in the Snapture will still be a baby, but their identical sibling will be five years older!
DID NOBODY THINK THIS THROUGH?!?
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so they totally thought this through. *tumble weed*
Far From Home is going to be...interesting *face palm*
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Yes, I am that desperate. *sobs into her keyboard*
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(I spotted that Nick has female company in the trailer, and was very much hoping)
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(I really want Maria Hill, exasperated adult dealing gently with over-enthusiastic teenagers, a la Ultimates Maria Hill in Ultimate Spider-Man - Miles Morales, sure, but...it would be so neat!)
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honestly, need some maria being the esaperated adult dealing with Nick and the kids *crosses fingers* (or just her and MJ rolling their eyes at the others at some point)
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Maria: "You've gotten grumpier as you've gotten older, Nick."
Nick: "Privilege of age."
And I may have already written Maria dealing gently-but-exasperatedly with Peter... :D
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(also my brain just realised that Maria, Nick and the kids will all be in the same boat having missed 5 years.....)
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I agree with your point though, the return is also going to be painful, both for those coming back and those who'd stayed. (Fortunately I found a fix-it fic for this particular issue quickly.)