questions about race

[tielan]

Does the "one drop" rule still apply in American society?

Rachel Luttrell is half-black and is considered a person of colour.

Jason Momoa is (I believe) one-quarter Pacific Islander and seems to be considered a person of colour.

I just read in an article/meta that Angelina Jolie may have Iroquois blood, which - according to the author - would make her a woman of colour.

I'm 100% Chinese blood and probably would be considered a person of colour in the US. I wouldn't describe myself as 'a person of colour' because the term 'person of colour' doesn't really exist in Australia the way it does in America. I'm an Australian with Chinese background - what Australian Chinese laughingly call "the banana syndrome: yellow on the outside, white on the inside."

Somehow, I doubt that the African-Americans would ever describe themselves as "coconuts" in the same manner. Or if they did, it certainly wouldn't be a laughing matter but a cause for shame.

I guess part of me is curious as to why the Chinese don't seem to have half the trouble integrating into Western society - and are often denigrated for "stealing" the jobs, educational places, and opportunities off white people - that those of African (or, in Australia's case, Aboriginal) descent have. Is it related to the slavery/blackfella angle and dispossession/dislocation? To skin colour? To the culture and customs of the background society? Social cohesiveness?

I'd love to hear people from non-white backgrounds give their experiences of "integration in Western society" as it relates to their racial background.

ETA: I don't mean to cause offence with my language or the statements that I made in the post. I've used as neutral terminology as I know how, given that I'm an Australian trying to speak to a (predominantly) American audience. If I've given offence, I sincerely apologise.

Comments

[sjhw-tolerance.livejournal.com]

I wish I could answer your questions, but I was raised to be color blind.
So while I know there are problems (which is probably a mild word), it's hard for me to voice any kind of opinion or thought, because for me personally, race is a non-issue.

[sjhw-tolerance.livejournal.com]

Oh...and I know I'm white, so it's probably easy for me to be color-blind...but then that also gets to be tricky, doesn't it? As a white female, discrimination against me may not be as obvious as it is with others.

[tielan]

See, I don't think about people's race when I meet them, other than a "that's their background" kind of thing. People are people.

But I'm curious about integration and barriers to integration - perceived and real. Why do some cultures manage to climb across the barriers without a second glance, while others struggle?

[meyerlemon.livejournal.com]

I have noticed before that Australians seem to have a very different relationship with racial issues - or, at the very least with the language of racial issues - than Americans do. I'm trying to bear that in mind as I read your post, which has a number of elements that make me twitchy.

The one-drop rule would be considered archaic and offensive. If someone seriously floated this in conversation, anyone who didn't consider themselves pretty racist would almost certainly speak up.

Your "banana syndrome" phrase seems to be semi-cheerful. There's no corollary in American culture. Latinos are sometimes called "coconuts" (brown on the outside, white on the inside), and blacks are sometimes called "Oreos" (black on the outside, white on the inside), but it's very, very offensive. There's a lot of stuff tied up in it. I'm having trouble thinking of a way to explain. Have you ever heard the phrases "Uncle Tom" or "house negro"? Those are in the same area, offensiveness and intent-wise, as "Oreo". I've never heard an American use any of them without a strong negative connotation, either in calling someone else one of these terms, or in discussing their experience being called them.

As an American, I would never call a Chinese American "a person of color". POC is generally reserved for people of (partial) African or Afro-Caribbean descent and for people of (partial) Hispanic descent. I've never heard anyone use POC to mean "Asian American".

I don't think that "Aboriginal Australian" correlates to "African American". I think it's closer to "Native American", based on the little I know of the Aboriginal plight in modern Australian culture.

In American culture, there's really no way to draw parallels between the experience of Asian immigrants and black Americans. For one thing, the majority of Americans of African descent aren't immigrants. Their ancestors didn't come here driven to seek a better life for their children: they were brought here as slaves. That fact permeates American culture on a really deep level. It goes beyond my knowledge to be able to explain that well, but if someone said to me: "Why do Vietnamese immigrants seem to be doing better than black people?" I wouldn't know what to say, because it misses the point in such an alarming way.

[sjhw-tolerance.livejournal.com]

Very well said. And I would agree, I'm not sure you can compare the American Black experience with any other immigrant culture.

[tielan]

And, the other issue that I managed to forget while typing my post: the fact that the language I use is intended to be inoffensive in terminology - and would probably be considered that way in Australia. Except that the audience I'm communicating with is primarily American.

*wince*

Could you take my word for it that I don't mean to cause offence with my language or the statements that I made in the post?

It's a good point about the "immigration vs. slavery" question. I guess something to consider in that vein would be the situation of African immigrants to America these days, and how they find their situation/status in the cultural climate of America. (Does the US have African immigrants to America? What happens to them in America?)

The situation with the Australian Aborigines is probably very similar to the Native Americans, come to think of it. But it's the closest corollary that I could reach for the African-American situation in America.

...unless you consider that Australia was started as a penal colony: although that was a class distinction, not a racial one.

I would never call a Chinese American "a person of color".

See, now, that's interesting. So what are the Asian racial groups if they're not white and they're not POCs? I took the definition of the term 'person of colour' to mean 'non-white'.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

As an American, I would never call a Chinese American "a person of color". POC is generally reserved for people of (partial) African or Afro-Caribbean descent and for people of (partial) Hispanic descent. I've never heard anyone use POC to mean "Asian American".

Actually, I do use POC to include people of other colors (Asian American, etc.) As a Black woman (I don't use the term African-American), I have a sense of being connected to other folks in terms of struggle in this country. It may not be the same as my own but there are parallels especially when it comes to encounters with dominant culture.

[shusu.livejournal.com]

Racial slur database (http://www.rsdb.org/). Instructive, if stomach-turning.

Asians are the smart ones, according to U.S. societal standards. I had no problem integrating at nine, ten years old -- as long as I always had the answer. The flipside is that a lot of my white schoolmates had no idea how to tell us apart. The Asian kids were just all Asians. Whereas if we, that group, sat down together in high school, we knew our parents would stop short at a Filipino kid and a Japanese kid together, or that we would be warned away from dating Chinese boys, or that this Korean whose parents were from the peninsula was not the same level as the Korean kid who grew up in South America. Not that we cared; but we were aware of our own cultures' prejudices, and joked about it along with all the other stuff that parents do.

Outside that circle? We were all 'the same'. It helped that reputation that the majority of us over-achieved too.

It extends into adulthood, too. "Where are you from!" they ask in public transportation, or when we travel almost anywhere in the U.S., or as part of an icebreaker. If we want to stymie the asker, we say the city where we live. (I used to say "originally from [...]" until I got my citizenship.)

My own personal exception is when I work in the inner city, it's a different kind of candor, and sometimes 'my kind' is such a rare sight that I'm pleased to show them that 'my kind' is a real person who works hard like the rest of them. But oh, they want to know. "Where (are) you from!" or "What are you?" from total strangers, to be followed by guesses... Chinese? Vietnamese? Wait don't tell me, Korean. Personally I like it when they ask, because it kind of frightens me that there are people who wonder and then don't.

[sjhw-tolerance.livejournal.com]

Your comments are very interesting. Growing up in the Midwest, we didn't see too many Asians. It was only after living in Los Angeles for 12 years that I even became close to being able to tell the difference between Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, Filipino and Japanese.

And then it started me thinking, did I know anybody who was Asian while I was growing up? And come to think of it, I did. Ann Yen and her family, who went to our church and I don't ever remember thinking of her as being different, she was just Ann and she was my friend. I'm sure I must've known that she was not the same as me, but at least in this particular situation, it didn't matter. I think her father must've been a professor at UNL, that's the only reason I can think of why a Chinese family would have been in Lincoln in the 1960's.

[tielan]

"Where are you from!" they ask in public transportation, or when we travel almost anywhere in the U.S., or as part of an icebreaker.

Heh. If I want to stymie the questioner, I put on a straight face and say, "Well, when a man and a woman have sex..." or just tell them, "Sydney, Australia".

To be honest, I'm not too good at picking out nationalities among the Asian racial types myself. Possibly because I grew up with Chinese Malaysians and Chinese Indonesians, as well as Chinese whose background was in China - but we all called ourselves "australian-born-chinese" even though our parents came from different Asian countries. It may have blurred my perceptive boundaries.

[beanie-j.livejournal.com]

I've tended to notice that Americans are more cut and dry in the discussion of race than most of the world. White, black, Asian, etc. Whereas in the UK, people speak in terms of ethnic origin - English, Irish, Afro-Caribbean, Pakistani, etc.

If having non-white ancestry, regardless of the amount of you it accounts for makes you a 'Person of Colour', it would make me one, and pretty much most of the population of Earth 'People of Colour'. I despise that term anyway - every person has a colour, if you want to take it at face value.

I could actually say a lot about this subject, but I will keep my mouth shut for the sake of decorum. There are many things that annoy me about race discussion, as have come to light during fandom's debating this subject many times around the mulberry bush, most often being that no matter what life experiences I have, as someone who by American standards is classified as 'white', I will always been seen as privileged, even if that is not the case.

[tielan]

From the sound of your last sentence, you've experienced racial discrimination of some kind in spite of being perceived as white?

I never considered that there might be major issues in "integrating into Western culture" for people who are classified "white" by American standards - but if you have something to share in that vein, please feel free, by all means!

[sizequeen.livejournal.com]

The source of many of the issues you describe that concern black Americans is due to slavery then the next century of American apartheid, which we call Jim Crow.

You have to understand that there is a lot of self-hatred in the black community in the US due to how we have been characterized during that time and sometimes after--as ugly, lazy, sex-obsessed, ignorant, criminal, and child-like. And Africa was generally seen as a country of savages (see the original King Kong or Tarzan), so Black people were not trying to claim Africa with any kind of pride. So, you have people who weren't accepted as real Americans, but they couldn't cling to an African identity either.


The idea of integration wasn't really considered a dirty word until the 1960's when non-whites began to throw off the shackles of colonialism and find their "true" national character. Blacks in America began to do the same, but we were cut off from our "real" names and traditions, and began to create them. That's the origin of the holiday Kwanaa, which as far as I know has nothing to do with AFrica. Blacks were trying to claim a sense of pride through nationalism.

It seems as if in Austrailia intergration isn't a dirty word. In America, "Intergration" or the "melting pot" is seen as a way of effacing ethnic origin and identity. If a black person or a mixed race black person try to neogotiate their cultrual identity, then they are seen as not having pride in their blackness or taking the easy way out by claiming their non-black identitity.


When Tiger Woods described himself as Caublasian, many black people thought that was absurd. In this country, if you look black, you are black for all intents and purposes. Some saw his claiming of his Asian and white heritage as a way of minimizing the "negative" of his blackness-- taking the easy road. Obviously, the acceptance of people who claim a mixed race heritage is changing but very slowly.

It's easy to understand why some black people don't repect this kind of racial neogotiation, when we look at the quick political ascendancy of Senator Barack Obama. His mother was white, his father Nigerian, and he had an international education, and white people LOVE him. People with a skeptical viewpoint say that this is because he is half-white and his father was an immigrant, and not some lowdown domestic black. So, there is some distrust and some resentment over the fact that a non-mixed descendant of slaves could never could the same kind of acceptance from a white audience.

Just the other day, I responded to a post on blackfolk, in which someone asked what our favorite baby names were. Many of us chose European names, and someone protested indignantly that we weren't choosing African names. What, did we hate ourselves? Did we see our own culture as unworthy?


This is why the term Oreo or Uncle Tom is such an insult. That person is saying that you hate yourself and you race, and prefer white culture. This is why many blacks dislike interracial couples. They feel that the person who dates only whites is trying to gain staus or finds blacness less beautiful than whiteness. That's why hair in the black community is so political. Many people chemically straighten their hair and get weaves, but those who choose to go natural are seen as having greater self-esteem and "authenticity." they are more "down" with their African heritage.

Finally, no one in her right mind would claim that jolie is a person of color. There are many people in the country with a Native American heritage, but only a select few are considered part of a tribe.

Rachel Lutreel would be seen as black by most.

Jason Momoa is mostly white, but his last name and his hair style will always put him in a category of "not quite white." If he cut his hair, he'd pretty much be white again.

Wow, I wrote a lot, and I have work to do. Hope this explanation answers your questions.

[tielan]

Yes, it does help a lot, and you're pretty on-the-spot regarding the Australian perspective.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions!

[therisingmoon.livejournal.com]

i'm american born chinese and i grew up in the suburbs and back in the late 80s and early 90s, there wasn't a lot of asian families, much less chinese families living where i grew up. and because of that and having attended a private religious school in my grade school years, i was mocked for being chinese and of working class background because i wasn't like any of the other kids in school.

this has only happened to me once at work, but i was extremely offended to be called korean/japanese/vietnamese by a contractor who had been giving my boss a hard time about some things he had reserved and not yet received.

i cussed him out to my boss after the guy left and business was dead again because he had been extremely rude before that and then to blatantly call me another ethnicity was just offensive. what was even worse was that the guy was chinese himself and was speaking in chinese to his associate on the phone and it would be extremely unprofessional of me to cuss him out in front of customers and my boss.

[tielan]

i was extremely offended to be called korean/japanese/vietnamese by a contractor who had been giving my boss a hard time about some things he had reserved and not yet received.

I'm used to being called a Korean or Japanese - mostly because my skin is very pale and my face very oval and flat. And I've been asked by people of Asian descent as well as by non-Asians. Last time I was asked, I was in a Korean supermarket, browsing the vegies.

So it doesn't bother me to be identified by another Asian nationality if it's unintentional and not meant as an insult.

(from the context of your comment, I took it to mean he was mistaken rather than trying to deliberately insult you - if I'm wrong, I apologise).

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Random bits:

-) I think the "of color" [or whatever the local equivalent] term can vary a lot from country to county, simply based on whatever the local situation is (fe American experience being with former slave African descendants, UK experience being predominantly with people from India or Pakistan, French experience being with immigrants from North Africa; in Russia for example people who would be by our definition Asian looking from Kazachsatan et all are considered the "blacks" because by white Russian standards they are the poor immigration workers [and it has led to some extremely ugly neo nazi themed violence against them from Russians]).

-) The problem is that issues of immigration and immigration hit often get mixed with racism. Even though it also exists from blacks to blacks (black South Africans against illegal immigrants from Zimbabwe) or white to white (Western Europeans vs. Slavic/Eastern Europeans). The problem is that these kind of issues don't really stem from racism, but rather subconsciously realized economic self interest (educated workers from a country are suspicious against educated competition from the outside but have no trouble with low skilled immigration; low skilled workers from a country have issues with the immigration of other low skilled workers, but have no/fewer issues with the immigration of highly skilled workers; We have issues with the ones that might make things harder for us on our job market [and like, force us to work harder], but have no issues with immigration on a job market that doesn't concern us), but it frequently *voices* itself in racist or racist sounding bits (like "All people from immigration county X are ugly/stupid/violent/thieves"). I tend to think that you can see whether you are dealing with really core racism against a particular group depending on how long those prejudices last. Whether they are still considered true about the same people 100 years later or whether they are now being used against people from a completely different origin now.

-) I think Asians profit from the fact that China and Japan very visible, including their culture. People tend to have a positive opinion on them because (1) there probably is a lot of highly skilled immigration from them and (2) they have a positive or respectful opinion on these two highly visible Asian countries. If you for example were dealing with a country where most local Asians come from poorer or less visible countries (like the Asians from the former Soviet States living in Russia; or countries who mostly meet Filipino Asians) chances are that the perception of Asians might be different.

-) Random: I read that there is actually a high number of skilled immigration into the US from Africa for example in the medical sector. And that is actually a huge problem for some Africa countries because their educated doctors immigrate to the US rather than staying at home. Though maybe they aren't as visible to the US because they get outnumbered by low skilled immigrants (or low skilled traditional African Americans).

[thelana.livejournal.com]

-) Culture matters. For example Greece is a relatively poor country by European standards. And their people are relatively dark skinned. Yet people tend to have a positive perception of Greece because Greek culture (myths, philosophy) are deeply interwoven with Western European history. We know their history, their philosophers, their Ancient myths. And that slants our perception of them. For example in Austria/Germany people tend to have a lower opinion on Italians than on Greeks. Maybe part because historically tend to (fairly or unfairly) view the Romans as strong but also brutal and the Greeks as educated and refined. Maybe part because Austrians/Germans see Italians as less of an independent country because they used to be under Austro-Hungarian rule for a while. On the other hand somebody who doesn't have the same historical associations or might have completely different ones (say somebody from Turkey or Egypt) might see Greeks completely differently. History combined with economic priorities might also be the reason why a middle European might think more highly of a Russian (slavic) person than a person from Poland. Because historically we remember the Russians as big and powerful and economically we might remember having read about powerful oil magnates from Russia. Which doesn't mean that Poland doesn't have a rich, historical, cultural history, just that we are ignorant of it [I tend to think that a lot people tend to look at countries as (a) likelihood that they are here to bring *us* money by investing in us [then we like them] vs. (b) likelihood that they are trying to get money *from* us [for example by wanting a job with us; then we don't like them]]. Which might be one problem with Africa, that to us Africa is either a cultural wasteland or rather we are an education wasteland when it comes to African history. We might barely distinguish between North and Subsaharan Africa (North having Egypt and often being more influenced by Islamic culture). Or have a vague idea of "Countries that used to be British" vs "Countries that used to be French".
Just like an average white person simply can't tell apart a piece of Chinese, Japanese or Korean culture (writing, painting [well, unless it is distinctly Communist, but that's a different matter). They might have some vague idea that the differences are rather steep (one went Communist with Mao, one was isolationist and had an Emperor for a long time, one is divided and dealing with conflicts of that...). But they are just not literate in the culture to really deeply understand what it means deep down. Just like outsiders might not be fully literate on the differences between different Balkan states or between Austria and Germany or Germany and Poland.

-) I tend to think that culture is also important for the people themselves. Culture and history drills "You are important/We are important" into you. It might influence how other's perceive you, but also how you perceive yourself.

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about this last night while flipping channels on tv at work. And it sort of makes me wonder. Maybe it's not necessarily about assimilation, but rather about ending up with mostly positive stereotypes (wise mentor, martial artist, super smart nerd, dedicated/loyal businessmen, geisha, for examples). In contrast to most of the stereotypes you'll see for other minorities (slutty women, lazy Mexicans, welfare queens, violent blacks, etc.), the stereotypical presentations for Asians are mostly aligned with positive aspects.

I'm sure assimilation plays a huge role but I think with those positive views we have (really the only "bad" Asian stereotype I can think of is 'perv,') it's probably easier to assimilate when people don't expect you to be on welfare, an illegal immigrant, or carry a gun.

[agriope23.livejournal.com]

Boy did you use the buzz-word! Here I go…

I'm Congolese and I've basically grown up in Denmark, I came here from Congo at the age of six. I speak the language perfectly but I still get asked where I come from. When I answer a town in Denmark: "No, where are you really from?"

When I was little people in the bus would rub my skin to see if the color came off, pull at my hair, ask if we ate everyday when we were in Africa, etc, etc. Teachers were surprised my Dad was a doctor or that I was smart: "God, you're so clever!" We used to say hello to other black people on the street when we met some.

I also lived in France for five years, and you don’t get the stupid questions but at the same time it would never occur to white French people to befriend with you. It’s rare enough to notice.

Generally speaking, I find racism intrinsically linked to colonial history and how it ended. Integration in the U.K is as close as it gets to success in Europe whereas young people in France, who consider themselves French, burn police cars and schools! France went to war with most of its colonies when they demanded independence and almost 50 years later, they parade people on TV, white French people, resenting that the Algerians made them leave the country! It’s normal. The French parliament wanted to pass a law that said that colonialism was beneficial for Africa and the other colonies!

That where problems arise. I grew up with people from all over the world who don’t think about race any more than I do ( in a bubble in Danish society know as an international school) but when you see something like this… it’s so massive you wouldn’t even know where to begin explaining it to white people around you. Because you’re not just talking about 1960 but about western policy in the Third World today and the inheritance of a mindset that is structurally racist.

That strikes me as being the real barrier today. That most people don’t want to admit how much it still is a part of daily life. Seventeen years later, I don’t have any Danish (white Danish) and my sisters have a few, my brother has none. Same thing with friends of friends of friends.

Same thing goes for my family in France, London, and everywhere in the USA. We seem to be sticking to “our own kind”, which for the more hardcore ones means African people and for the truly hardcore, only Congolese people (mind you with over 200 ethnic groups to choose from!).

Personally I’ve lowered my expectations of integration. I speak the languages, I work, I pay my taxes and I vote. I’m a European citizen and I leave it at that.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

When I was little people in the bus would rub my skin to see if the color came off, pull at my hair, ask if we ate everyday when we were in Africa, etc, etc. Teachers were surprised my Dad was a doctor or that I was smart: "God, you're so clever!" We used to say hello to other black people on the street when we met some.

If I had a dime for every time someone said I was clever, well spoken (!) or smart, I'd be rich and living in a very large house.

After a while, I started to treasure those moments when white people would ask me what my father did for a living and I'd look at them and say, "He works for IBM." I left off the choice curse words that went with that statement.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

I just got around to reading through some of this and have some comments but I'll have to get back to it a little later.

Interesting stuff, though.

[isaysquee.livejournal.com]

I'm 100% Chinese-Canadian. Never had any problems "integrating" in Western society. Perhaps it's true that Canadians are very multicultural and are accepting as I've never been subjected to anything negative. I remember in high school though, a lot of people disliked "the Hongers"- the Chinese who were loud and obnoxious, speaking in their own language like they ruled the place. I was and still am a banana. :)

I also live in a city where over 50% of the populous are Asian. Maybe that's got something to do with it.

[tielan]

You in Vancouver, then? :)

[purple-cube.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about this for most of the weekend and still haven't formed any actual coherent thoughts...but I'll try and respond anyway.

I have to admit that the American terms and opinions confuse me too - I've only come across them since entering fandom - I'd never heard of the term 'person of colour' before this year. In the UK, people are black, white, Indian, Chinese etc. When I fill in forms that ask about ethnic origin, they usually list them in this manner.

As a side note, I'm a little thrown by the use of the word 'Asian' to mean Far East Asian (China, Japan, Korea etc). Here, it is used to refer to South Asia (India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh) - others would be described by the country itself (Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc) or occasionally as Oriental. So on one of those government forms, British Asian would mean British Indian or Pakistani etc, while there would be a separate option for British Chinese (the most common ethnic group from the Far East), and then simply 'other' for Japanese, Korean etc.

Anyway, back on track: I don't think Jason Momoa would have been described as a PoC (or the equivalent term) in this country. I think that he would be considered white.

And yes, we have the 'coconut syndrome' for British Asians, and would be said in a laughing manner rather than as an insult (in my experience, anyway).

In the town that I grew up in, there is a fairly large Chinese community. The parents of one of my closest friends at school were from Hong Kong - for us it seemed that there were a lot of parallels between the Chinese and the Indian immigrants and their descendants. We all got along really well together - my parents were happy to have my chinese friend over for dinner but were more wary of my white friends. Maybe wary is the wrong word - more intrigued.

Certainly prior to the rise (or resurfacing?) of religious extremism since 2001, I'd have said that Asian (South *and* Far East) people were integrated extremely well into Western/British society. But the headlines in recent years and the reaction by the general (white) public suggest very differently - I'm hoping that they refer to an *extremely* small minority, both in the brown and white communities.

My own attitude towards race has changed since 2001, mostly due to how other people treat me. Everyone just seems that little bit more wary and on their guard - which is generally a good thing in terms of failed terrorist attacks. But I'm getting a little sick of people eye-ing me up every time I get on a train with a large bag.

[tielan]

As a side note, I'm a little thrown by the use of the word 'Asian' to mean Far East Asian

I get thrown by your use of Asian. :) Here, Asian = Chinese, japanese, Korean, Taiwanese...the mongoloid types.

My school group - particularly in senior years - was mostly Asians (from Asia), Indian/Pakistani, with a couple of Eurasian girls and one or two 'Australian' girls. Most of us were born here or immigrated over before we hit high school. Some of the best discussions I ever had were in Year 12 Physics, talking about religion: me-Christian, Indian girl 1 - Hindu, Indian girl 2 - atheist, Indian girl 3 - Muslim. I sucked at Physics, but got some good Comparative Religion in. :)

I haven't noticed that much change in treatment of myself since 9/11. Asians aren't suspicious people in Australia - yet. After 9/11 and with some gang rapes perpetrated by youths of Middle Eastern Appearance against White Australian girls, there's some suspicion towards MEAs. After a Brisbane doc of Indian extract has been held in custody (10 days, no charges yet levelled) over the recent carbombings in the UK, I don't know how people are going to treat people of Indian/Pakistani extract in future.

It's becoming worrying.

Questions About Race- A Black Brit Comments

[yinkawills.livejournal.com]

Okay.
Background first: I was born in the Caribbean and brought to the UK by my parents when I was 3. Physically, I look 100% African. I have an upper middle class 'white' English accent,am a lawyer, and live an integrated life in London.I am the type of black person white people gravitate towards, and like to make friends with.

Nevertheless, I am Ms Pan-Africanist,and my heroes are Malcom X, Marcus Garvey, and my disposition would be described as militant on race issues.

As a person with Caribbean relatives-in Trinidad- I come from a place where there is such a degree of racial intermixing that many/most families contain members who look like me, AND Rachel Luttrell AND Jason Momoa. My Dad has siblings who look white and some who look black. My niece looks Afro-Chinese (veering on the Chinese side depending on how she wears her hair).My brother (deceased) looked Indian.

All this is because during 4 centuries of slavery there was (mostly non-consensual)sex between slave master and slaves, then post slavery, during colonialism, indentured labourers were imported from India, and (to a much lesser extent) there was some migration from China to my island. Post slavery we had a kind of apartheid in the Caribbean-not as vicious as Jim Crow but thorough as regards education, employment, housing.Status was determined by race AND shade/colour.Since the late 19th century there's been lots of inter marriage between people of African, South Asian, Chinese descent in the islands (dependent on the racial composition of the islands. E.g Jamaica has more Afro-Chinese people than other islands,Trinidad more Afro-Indian, Dominica has more Afro-Amerindian)

Now, as regards the question as to why in the Western society its...easier for Chinese people to integrate, meyerlemon and sizequeen have I think given the best kind of answers, a historical overview.In order to sustain Transatlantic slavery morally, racial myths were constructed about Africans and people of African descent.They had to be viewed as childlike at best,violent savages at worst, who came from a place where there was no civilisation. At all. Otherwise the form of slavery- chattel slavery- used would have been untenable/unconscionable.

Chattel slavery is worse than the kind used say by the Romans and ancient Greeks, or indeed by Africans themselves, as the slaves are deemed sub-human.There isnt a code of protection/rights and no way for their offspring to evolve into freedom and citizenship. In the West, during slavery we were seen as 'Other'. Much of the language and society of slave holding countries-England, America, France, Holland, Portugal, Spain, reflected this.The racial myths constructed were carried over after slavery INTO THE 20th CENTURY. They are dying, much of them have been discredited/dismantled, but it'll take a few decades before they totally disappear. In places like France and England they are disguised better than in the US. But having been to all three countries, I can confirm that racism is a common factor in all.

As regards one poster's comments on colourblindness, hth-the-first has a sensational, thoughtful discussion on her LJ about the drawbacks of that approach here: http://hth-the-first.livejournal.com/.

I found it wandering onto rydra_wong's fascinating LJ discussion about race that had a lot of interesting contributions here: http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/.

As for this comment:
>At first glance, Jason Momoa is just a white man with bad hair<
um, no. He looks like a lot of people from Pacific islands such as Hawaii. Doesnt look white at all. And apparently when he moved as a kid to mainland US, the white kids in school didnt think he looked white either, and there were..difficulties.

Re: Questions About Race- A Black Brit Comments

[tielan]

Thank you for posting about your history. I appreciate the effort you've made.

I guess, when I posted it, I didn't seriously consider the "weight of history" as a factor, looking only at the present state of the world as though people were individuals and not part of a society. Sometimes it's easy to forget that - particularly when I come from a background where the weight isn't presently pressing in the same way.

But you, and meyerlemon and others have pointed out very importantly: it's more than just the individual, it's the weight of history and historical attitudes coming down and impacting a person and who they choose to be and who they can choose to be.

A Black Brit Comments-Part ll

[yinkawills.livejournal.com]

(LJ cuts required this post to be split up)

Things have improved in the UK. Substantially.When I was little I could see signs advertising rooms to rent saying' no irish, coloureds, no dogs'. Thats gone. No politician would now campaign under the slogan 'Vote Labour if you want a nigger for a neighbour'. Black children coming over from the Caribbean are no longer disproportionately categorised as 'educationally sub-normal' as happened in the 1960s. But much of the indicators of racial prejudice exist here and have been presented in umpteen reports, research documents, Parliamentary Committee docs, Public Enquiries.

As regards Australia. Well. I am old enough to remember the 'White Australia' immigration policy. I recall reading about near genocidal treatment of indigenous peoples in Australia, and particularly in Tasmania.I remember discussions with people of Aboriginal ancestry about the government policy that existed up until the 1970s, of lighter more European looking ones being forcibly taken from their families (indeed my son's former maths teacher who is Australian, and looks white, told him about his Aboriginal family's traumas in that regard..).From the outside looking in, it seems unlikely that they could easily integrate into a society that nearly destroyed them...

[yamadara.livejournal.com]

Jason Momoa is (I believe) one-quarter Pacific Islander and seems to be considered a person of colour.

I never thought of him as a person of color. I just thought of him as a local boy.

[tielan]

Well, he is a local boy to you, I imagine.

But the "seems to be considered" was my way of indicating "I've heard other people saying it" even if I'm not sure about the actual definition of "person of colour" according to law or general perception.

[missyvortexdv.livejournal.com]

Have you read this?

http://community.livejournal.com/anthropologist/1117228.html

[tielan]

No, I hadn't. Thanks for linking, though - it is interesting to read about the pressure to identify with their nationality as represented by the government or with their religion - one or the other.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

jason momoa is half hawaiian, and identifies as not white, or at least that is what it sounded like he said when he talked about why he knows that ronon dex will be an unusual casting experience for him in the season 2 dvd featurette on him.

[delux-vivens.livejournal.com]

also, if you can get it, i suggest reading derrick bell's "faces at the bottom of the well: the permannence of racism." it includes the famous short story about aliens coming to the us and taking black people in return for fixing the us' money and environmental problems.