![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
I get the feeling that some folks don't think racism is their problem.
On one hand, I feel the agreement bubbling up within me. I'm not overtly or intentionally racist. I try to judge people by who they are not what their background is. I don't have problems with people as racial types, I have problems with people as individuals.
On the other hand, the questioner within me demands to know: "If racism isn't my problem...whose problem is it?"
I considered that this morning and here's how I laid it out.
I guess I have a 'get-out-of-racism-free' card, in a way. I'm a Person-of-Colour but I tend to think of myself as being brought up white - the old banana joke. It would be nice to see more Asian heroes and heroines in mainstream TV but I take what I can where I find it - and sometimes my connection isn't with 'the Asian' character at all. My racial type has a different history of oppression, one that involved being looked down upon but doesn't involve slavery and the denigration of humanity. (And these days, all your university place belong to us. Muahahahaha! *cough*)
Still, just because I can use the 'get-out-of-racism-free' card doesn't mean I should.
If racism isn't the problem of the people who aren't racist - if it's the province of the people who are racist, then we're putting a lot of faith in humanity's ability to self-criticise. Abusers are not generally inclined to admit to being wrong, let alone likely to change their behaviour to accomodate the victim.
So, if racism isn't the problem of the people who aren't racist, and it's ignored by the people who are racist...that leaves racism as the victims' problem.
And I disagree that abuse is the problem of the victims; that bystanders have nothing to answer for.
So...racism is my problem, too.
On one hand, I feel the agreement bubbling up within me. I'm not overtly or intentionally racist. I try to judge people by who they are not what their background is. I don't have problems with people as racial types, I have problems with people as individuals.
On the other hand, the questioner within me demands to know: "If racism isn't my problem...whose problem is it?"
I considered that this morning and here's how I laid it out.
I guess I have a 'get-out-of-racism-free' card, in a way. I'm a Person-of-Colour but I tend to think of myself as being brought up white - the old banana joke. It would be nice to see more Asian heroes and heroines in mainstream TV but I take what I can where I find it - and sometimes my connection isn't with 'the Asian' character at all. My racial type has a different history of oppression, one that involved being looked down upon but doesn't involve slavery and the denigration of humanity. (And these days, all your university place belong to us. Muahahahaha! *cough*)
Still, just because I can use the 'get-out-of-racism-free' card doesn't mean I should.
If racism isn't the problem of the people who aren't racist - if it's the province of the people who are racist, then we're putting a lot of faith in humanity's ability to self-criticise. Abusers are not generally inclined to admit to being wrong, let alone likely to change their behaviour to accomodate the victim.
So, if racism isn't the problem of the people who aren't racist, and it's ignored by the people who are racist...that leaves racism as the victims' problem.
And I disagree that abuse is the problem of the victims; that bystanders have nothing to answer for.
So...racism is my problem, too.
no subject
A lot of rambling from me...
I usually try to stay away from this kind of thing, but I have a certain trust in you because I trust your fiction. Strange to say it that way, but because I can not mind meld...it works.
My friend says she is a "Proud Black Woman" and that any black person claiming a get out of rasism free card as you put it is in itself racist. It is claiming that because you are in the current dominating minority 12% of Americans that you can not be racist. I don't think for one minute that you are racist...just want to say that. I told her the new minority that will soon be the new major top percent minority is latino/mexican also at 12% and climbing...so we are about to have more latino/mexican things happen in this country then all the flag stuff happened. TV wants ratings, so they go with the majority (76% of America is White according to the Census) to try to get more people to watch, so that is money driven.
She is also the first person of color that I have ever heard say outloud that if she gets fired she just might use "the race card" to get her good paying job back...the problem was she gave a discount to a friend that was employee only. I told her that was wrong to play the race card. She told me that if it helps her that she is going to do it. See, she could have thought that and not said it to me. I wished she did not tell me. What would Martin Luther King Jr. say to that aplication of logic? I called to tell her not to come in the day they got the video up of it. She thanked me.
I like the movie Crash because it brings up issues.
...
More rambling from me...
I think my black friends bring this kind of thing up with me to see what I think, and I say that I am part German, Scot-Irish, and Native American, so I can think that some of my German family in the past may have killed a Jewish person and my Scot-Irish family may have killed some of my Native American family well not killed but tried to delete from existance. My christian side knows that decendants of people in the bible might have been killed by some of my German family. Never really know.
I worked with a black woman in her fifties who said that slavery started in America. I asked her if she knew slavery was going on in other countries before before the established Native American tribes. Native American's may have kept slaves of other tribes they took over, but at least it kept a third of the tribe alive and they only killed off two thirds of them and not all. She looked at me like I was nuts. I said what. She said she was talking about black slaves and said she did not know Indians had slaves. I asked her if she knew some whites bought black slaves from other black tribes who had extra slaves from tribes they took over or fought with. She asked what I was talking about and said I was a crazy white girl. We laughted. I told her a college class she might ask the teacher if she could audit it or get literature from. She told me she was telling her daughter she is learing about black slavery from a white teenager at work. I said not to forget the crazy part. And we laughed.
I know very little compaired to some who research these topics. But, I think at the heart of racism is a level of not understanding what is or has gone on.
Hate to say it, but as our elderly are passing away so are some of the stronger rasist people who lived during the chang over...well maybe. I have heard very old white people say be careful of black people breaking in your house to steal things and give examples. I hear very old black people say that you have to be careful of white people killing you. It always makes me feel strange and in the past I changed the subject.
I am afraid if people act like or talk like the other will do something that it might bring it about. Some of my problem with some movies and songs. It is true over time the violence is not as bad. The exceptance of it in the work place is not as bad. And things need to keep going that route. If we want to talk of the past, lets remember the good.
...
Martin Luther King Jr. stood and talked about a dream. When I stood at the Lincoln monument last year on the words engraved to show where he stood, I looked out thinking of his dream. It may have started for black people, but it also means women and other groups...to me anyway. I thought that in Sci-fi or in Star Trek that it started out allowing differnt kinds of people and colors of people an oportunity to be together in a common goal. It was a start even with Captain Kirk. I remember the actors talking about it.
A dream...a goal...a way of thinking.
...
I promise last post...please forgive spelling PLEASE!
When I was very young a boy younger than me who was black walked up to me and I did not know him. He asked me why I hated him. I said I did not even know him. His explanation was that I was white so I hated him.
I shook my head at him. I said that him saying I was white and that was the only reason why I hate him was a racist thing for him to say and it hurt my feelings. He said no that he was black so he was not racist only white people are and they hate him because he is dark.
I was soooooo shocked. We continued to talk. His older brother came up and said for the most part why I was bothering his broher. We were sitting at that point and chatting like old friends. Still stunned.
The brother only heard me say that if you are any race in the world you can still be a racist and just because you do not say it or show it in any way noticible that if you are racist you are thinking it.
The little boy jumped up and told him to leave me alone that we were talking.
A black lady I was taking classes with in college told me of an entire company full of employees telling her her first day at work that she should think about getting a new job. She said why they said she was black. I got so mad my face turned red and the entire class felt outrage. It made me want to find these people and smack them in the head. Everytime she said "white workers" I felt a twinge of guilt because I am a white person. She did not mean it that way, but it made me feel like I should fix it.
When I was younger, and yes I am still in my 20's...I tried to change the subject or get out of situations where people were being white racist people. I tried to talk to the people who were of a different color who were doing it. I felt that from one person of different color talking to me thought of me as white and maybe someone who does it or maybe has insite. I tried to be truthful.
Now that I am older, I still do the same thing with different color people, but I squint my eyes at any white people who do or say it. I let them know I will not nod my head and go along or validate their actions or comments. Even when someone says they Jew'ed someone down from a price or N'rigging something.
I have experienced racism even being a white woman, I have experienced age and sex descrimination, and I have experienced culture and class baised discrimination. Each time I wanted to thump the person or people in the head and say they are acting on emotion or trained experience and not logic.
All of us operate on norms.
I am afraid if I take racism or other descriminations as a focal point that to some extent it leads to it or make it salient. Part of me fights that last sentence. I love seeing different things and people...I owe that to my mom. I owe any racist jokes that are in my memory that I do not use or agree with to my dad.
From one generation to the next the dream is being realized and soon children can learn from examples of their peers and parents instead of the secret quiet racism that learks in thoughts or words...in that I hope people really do learn from examples.
I know I have.
Re: I promise last post...please forgive spelling PLEASE!
Racism may not be every person's problem (Reposted to add in I ment "Racism may not be every person's problem on a daily or monthly basis..."), but to those who do not experience Racism personally (or often)comes the ability to be the race in the situation that may be the same as the person doing it or saying it. In that Racist person's mind (such as one white person to another, one black person to another, one Mexican/Latino person to another, one Oriental person to another and so on...), the person of the same race they are talking to is one of them.
In being considered one of them as in same race, it creats an ability for that person to make the Racist feel uncomfortable or put off even if a little. A hint or stern eye squint that says I don't like this and you better not do anything or say anything while I am around or I might tell what you said here or retaliate. It says this is not exceptable behavior or way of talking.
No matter who you are...class, race, sex, well known or not, and so on...if you are human you have experienced some type of discrimination in your life knowing or not knowing. It is up to each individual...every single human on the planet to let their dislike even if it is an eye squint in this type of thing.
In that, one person at a time...the social norm changes...and dreams become reality.
Via metafandom
With that statement you are completely dismissing the fact that in the real world there is a thing called power. Yeah, you can be privileged in some aspects of your life while being oppressed in some others. That doesn't change the fact that you, being white, have power over non-white people. Even if you don't want it.
So black people can use the N-word. You can't. Yeah, because you are white. That's not racism. That word was used by white people to dehumanize black people. The people offended, not the offenders, are the ones who decide who gets to use the insulting word, and who doesn't. After all, it's an insult towards them, not towards you.
Because the power isn't balanced, it's ridiculous to try to say that 'racial-prejudice' towards whites has the same effect that racism towards non-white people. It doesn't. The former is probably due to people experimenting the later.
Here: http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/content/2002-06/24wise.cfm
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0920-06.htm
I can't explain it better.
Re: Via metafandom
Racism is not just the problem of the largest minority group, which in the next 5 years will be the Mexican/Latino groups. It is a problem for all humans. It is something that will continue to be worked out as it decreases. It has been around since before written word.
To be told I can do something or not only on the grounds of the color of my skin or my sex ... to me that is racist or sexist (respective).
I think Tielan said something about whose problem is it. Something about if you are not racist and don't really experience it that you might ignore it...well there is a reason some might try to ignore it and even to the stupidity of thinking it does not exist...because if you say anything even that you don't like it someone from the group having racism used against them will tell you that you don't know what it is like and that if you experience it that it is not that bad (telling the victum to suck it up because it was not that bad or often), so you keep your mouth shut.
I happen to be one of the people foolish enough to think it still exists and that even in small ways we can influence each other for the better. It is a very good thing to talk about things from different sides and in that I respect Tielan and send thanks for keeping these topics open and truthful.
:)
Re: Via metafandom
"In our 14 months in Hong Kong, I learned some brutal lessons about racism. First, it is not the preserve of whites. Every race displays racial prejudice, is capable of racism, carries assumptions about its own virtue and superiority. Each racism, furthermore, is subtly different, reflecting the specificity of its own culture and history."
I think I was looking at it from a personal point of view. I was thinking of times when I saw racism or experienced it. I have lived in areas where white/light skin was not the norm. I have even had a group of people surround me and say they were going to beat me up because I was white...until a black person spoke up for me (I was not even a teenager at that point, but the majority of the group was).
In middleschool living in a different part of the country, I was nicknamed "Indian girl." It is obvious to see my dark straight long hair matching my grandfather's black hair who worked at the school, and he was a 4th Cherokee. Only when standing next to him was my Native American background so obvious...other wise my German Scoth-Irish medium skin and brown eyes takes center stage when someone decides my race and judges me.
One guy called me a squaw or how ever you spell it then it was "Indian girl." It was also interesting that the school mascot was "Indian Brave." We did the chant at ball games and so forth. One boy even made it part of a class poem he read to the class about how straight my hair is.
Then in a twisted string of events, a teacher had a group of Native Americans come in and talk to the class about culture. I was stupid enough to ask about how they celebrate birthdays. One Native American man having learned our mascot was "Indian Brave" and saw me as yet another stupid white person gave back a very harsh response to which I put my head down and wished I kept my mouth shut. Yes, it encouraged me to keep my mouth shut.
Back to link above with assumptions, the white kids saw me as "Indian girl" and the Native American visitors saw me as "stupid white girl." But, they did not see me.
I think that things that happen to us can alter us to bring out the good or the bad. I just hope when I die that I brought more good to the world then harm. So, in my own job, family, and community I try to keep my eyes and my heart open.
Re: I promise last post...please forgive spelling PLEASE!
On a higher up level, words mean a different thing depending on who says it, depnding on what the context is. A word might have a certain random real world dictionary definition, but it might have been used historically as an insult. Which means that in that context people are likely to assume you meant the historical meaning when you use it. Or a word might have a highly personalized meaning for example within for family referring to a specific family event, but it will only have that meaning as long as it's used by people within that context.
It might be the same word, the same combination of letters, but it can still mean a variety of things depending on context (and the context can include who says a word and to whom).
Re: I promise last post...please forgive spelling PLEASE!
One of the problems that might come from using racial words that have a historical negative influence is that it might confuse outsiders.
It makes it look like they do it but complain because an outsider does. To someone who does not say it and that it is not about, it can look like the same thing. The outsider might not fully understand the emotional force behind the word or words like the phrase "drunken Indian" referring to Native Americans.
It is a problem. The who is saying it and to whom can cause a problem depending if the person hearing it knows the from who and to whom. It causes one to have to judge someones racial background to see if it is an insult or not. In literature and media, that can get complicated. So why use the words or phrases that have such potential to harm?
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
An interesting way of putting it. But I think we can change the world...if enough people are willing to make their corner a little nicer.
no subject
no subject
At least here in the US PacificNorthwest (where I live), there is a history of racism against Asian Americans with Japanese internment camps in WWII and the exploitation and expulsion of the Chinese at various points in the last 100 years in different areas. I think it's very interesting how much this area tries to forget the past and welcome everyone into the tech industry. Except, you know, the other racial minorities that racist notions have shifted to, especially those in the lower income bracket who are less likely to have college degrees.
no subject
They had a meeting or a conclave at the anniversary to share the histories. I have to hunt down that article, they mentioned what looked to be some very interesting books in it.
no subject
no subject
no subject
Am I racist? Sure. Compared to my grandfather's generation, I'm not. But, I am. When I need help with something when out shopping, I'm quite specific as to who I will ask for help...
no subject
I wonder if a black person who needs assistance would look at it from the same or opposite perspective. Is it risk minimisation or racism? Would you ask a white scruffy-looking guy for help over a black man who's shopping with his wife and kids?
no subject
no subject
no subject
In the continuing rounds of fandom discussion of racism, I think we also see a great deal of another flavor of "not my problem" -- white fans who pride themselves on being "color-blind," and who think that as long as they/I aren't actively, deliberately and consciously promoting obvious racism they're "not racist" and therefore don't have to pay attention to racism. Once they/I have self-identified as "non-racist," it's easy for them/me (and their/my fellow white fans) to ignore fannish tendencies to focus on white characters, perpetuate racist meta-narratives, maintain or amplify stereotypes in source texts, etc. It's embarrassing to see how often white fans are willing to dismiss the concerns of fans of color regarding institutional and meta-narrative racism. Coming from a white fan or a white-dominated group of fans, "we don't consider race" is racist, "we just treat characters as individuals" is racist, "this fandom isn't racist (so your concerns aren't valid)" is racist...and it seems we always end up with "we're not racist, you must just be oversensitive," which is, of course, also racist.
no subject
I guess that's what I was trying to point out. That just because one doesn't go around referring to "niggers" and "coloureds" calling grown men "boy" and referring to "lynching" persons of colour, doesn't mean one isn't capable of racism.
In fandom, I'd say that consistently ignoring, denigrating, demeaning, or devaluing characters of colour is racism. (That's an 'or' not an 'and'.) Which means that a lot of fandom has a racist slant in their exclusionary policies towards characters of colour. (Bring in the pretty white characters, ignore or pair off the non-whites so we don't have to think about them.)
There was an interesting reference on
The evil, nasty, corrupt, unkind people are never "us". It's always "them".
no subject
no subject
no subject
Original Air Date: 11 February 1998
Captain Sisko has a full sensory vision of himself as an under-appreciated science fiction magazine writer in 1950s America.
Here via metafandom
Re: Here via metafandom
no subject
I'm having a really difficult time putting together this comment. I'm not sure how to respond to your post because I don't understand what definition of racism you're working with, but I realize I need to respond. Something is bothering me.
I understand racism as a system of oppression that doesn't just work on an individual level. It's about the privileging of white skin and the devaluing of dark skin. White privilege is a complex part of racism. As far as I'm concerned, this is something that has to be recognized when we're talking about race and racism. I think this is the generally accepted definition in anti-racist work, which I don't dissociate from fandom discussion of racism.
Under this definition, people of colour cannot be racist. Racism requires power and privilege. People of colour do not, in general, have racial power or privilege. White people do, which makes them automatically racist by virtue of this privilege. (I see a whole bunch of white readers going "WTF I AM NOT RACIST". Good luck with that:
So, I'm having problems with not understanding how you understand racism. You've mentioned that you're a person of colour, then stating that racism is your problem. I don't know if it's something I'm missing in your post, but are you saying people of colour need to look at how we're implicated in perpetuating racism? If that's the case, I totally agree.
But something still bothers me.
So, if racism isn't the problem of the people who aren't racist, and it's ignored by the people who are racist...that leaves racism as the victims' problem.
And I disagree that abuse is the problem of the victims; that bystanders have nothing to answer for.
Who are you considering not racist and who are you considering racist? Reading this sentence, I feel like you're separating "victim" from everyone else, both white and people of colour. As though white people can ever wipe themselves clean of the privilege that they get from the system of racism, and as though people of colour (those who can't pass as white) can ever gain that privilege that white people get. I just... I feel very confused, and I don't even know how to express why I feel like racism as a system of oppression is being denied. That people of colour can ever be bystanders to racism. We are the ones negatively affected by racism. We are the victims you're talking about.
I don't think we're at odds here though, which is why I'm confused about my reaction. I don't think there even exists a 'get out of racism free' card for people of colour to use. A person of colour might not be anti-racist, but of course racism is a POC problem. We have to live it every damn day.
no subject
Don't systems of power exist on every level and in every size though? If we are dealing with a country where non-white is the norm and the majority (Asian countries like Japan and China and India, South American countries like Brazil or Peru, African countries from Liberia to South Africa) then non-whites are the ones in government level power of their own domain. And they are capable in theory of strategically oppressing people of other shades within their domain (I'd like to think most of them don't because they know what it feels like or maybe they are just smarter/better).
It might never be as large scale because at the moment Western society/culture/milatary power still dominates the rest of the world (though I would argue that there are some "up and coming"s) but but it might be capable of feeling plenty of systematic to the people trapped within that system.
no subject
And they are capable in theory of strategically oppressing people of other shades within their domain (I'd like to think most of them don't because they know what it feels like or maybe they are just smarter/better).
Yes, they are, in addition to classism, sexism, homophobia, ableism, and a whole other slew of oppressive crap.
Still, on a global scale, there is still a hierarchy of race (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/sep/20/race.uk). The lighter the skin, the better the treatment. When I think about global racism, I think about the marketing of skin bleaching products, representation of light skin in media, freedom of mobility (travel & tourism), validity of academic credentials, transnational corporations, and other things that I think are tied up with various systems of oppression.
no subject
I was going to mention this in one of my responses but discovered i have a deadline so this will be short.
When I was a child, I didn't think much about 'colour'. I was Chinese Australian - both Chinese and Australian. I was teased at school because of my race, yes, but my father taught me to tease the other kids back because of their appearance, not because of their race.
eg. a tall, skinny boy with a shock of short hair called me "ching-chong". I called him "toilet brush" because he was skinny with short bushy hair. It wasn't about "race" per se it was about appearance. I looked different in one way, I got teased; he looked different in another way, he got teased.
I never had any major experience with discrimination - that I noticed. A few sneering comments when my friends and I caught the train home in high school: "Spot the Aussie!" To which my friends and I respond (in perfect Australian English), "Yeah, that would be us. Idiot."
But, yes, I remember learning about the 'hierarchy of race' via news about South Africa, and the whites being superior to the "coloureds" (people who weren't white but who weren't black either) and the "coloureds" being superior to the "blacks".
In Australia, there was once an outcry about the Greeks and Italians coming into the country - in the fifties and sixties. I don't think it really extended as far as legislation and organisation against them (other than the White Australia policy). In the seventies and eighties, that translated to "the Asian Invasion" - (although there've been Chinese Australians here since the days of the 1820s gold rush). In the nineties and noughties, it's been more about the middle eastern cultures - Lebanese, Arabs, and also the Western asian countries - India and Pakistan.
That's only fifty years, so Australian attitudes are changeable over that time.
More difficult to adjust - and probably consonant with the treatment of persons of African descent in the US - is the white settlers' treatment of the Australian Aborigines for the last two hundred years. While in land terms the Aborigines were treated by the white settlers as the Native Americans were treated by the US settlers, in legal terms their situation is more like the African Americans. They were once seen as "sub-human" and "unworthy to carry on their culture and lineage" - to the point where Aboriginal children were taken from their parents to be "brought up 'white'".
This is what I meant by a "get out of racism free" card. In Australian terms, the oppression that ensues from the system to a person of Chinese descent is fairly minimal - the worst outright oppression I'm going to find is some dumbfuck yobbo telling me to "go back home!"
For someone of Aboriginal descent, however, that card isn't an option. There's not just the history of oppression of their peopel by the Australian government, there's the perceptions of their culture, traditional stereotypes of "blacks" (Aborigines) being drunkards and wastrels, and the general inability to "whiten" themselves socially (ie. to successfully enter into "white culture" - academics, business, lifestyle).
This is just my (Australian) perspective on race relations - which, as
Did I say this was going to be short? Bugger.
no subject
I'm South Asian, and even though I live in Toronto (we love to talk about our multiculturalism like its always a good thing), I get those overt one-off "go back where you came from" comments too. I think a lot of my misunderstanding came from the fact that I don't understand the way race operates in Australia on the same level of understanding how it works in Canada. For instance, the Aboriginals in Canada face racism
Even though Toronto is this immigrant hub, there is a heightening anti-immigration sentiment that's uh, really disturbing. If you're white, then you were always here, and if you aren't, then you came from somewhere else. That's why I was totally missing your understanding of the 'get out of racism free' card. No one in the city gets a pass like that unless their skin is white and their accent is Canadian. There's a hierarchy of race, but a hiearchy of racism doesn't fit what I've learned about Canada. In my understanding, racism manifests itself differently in different contexts for different people. For myself, I will be affected by aspects of institutional racism that another person of colour from another race will not be affected by, and vice versa.
For instance, after 9/11, I am read as Muslim even though I'm not, especially because of my last name (until I changed it legally), and somehow Muslim is becoming equated with terrorist. There's this notion that Canada is harboring terrorists, so when traveling abroad, I'd be stopped at airports, my luggage slashed, and so on. For a time after, I didn't feel safe enough to google anything about Al-Qaeda because I thought no one would believe I'm not a terrorist.
But an Aboriginal, or Chinese, or black or whoever else might not get this type of treatment - at least not for the same reasons - the racism won't manifest in the same way. Even so, I don't have to face the same kind of racism that Aboriginals face that is embedded into our colonial laws (The Indian Act is one hell of a piece of legislation). The "Asian Invasion" is still mentioned here at times. Some of my friends get stopped on the street with random comments like "there are too many Chinese people in this city" even if they're not Chinese at all.
So, I keep getting long winded in why I completely misunderstood where you're coming from. (By the way, I'm not countering you - I'm just exchanging words.)
no subject
(where every new wave of immigration is hated until the next wave when people are busy hating the new wave)
I think racism still exists (as in the darker your skin is, the less likely that the penalties are going to go away even though you have been replaced by a new wave of immigration) in addition to it but anti-immigrantism manifests itself in many similar ways (less education, poorer, discrimination on the job market, offensive jokes, ranted against by politicians, being physically attacked by hostile locals, not being let into certain places).
The US has a different perspective because they have two groups (former slaves and Native Americans) who have been around in their country for centuries and they still haven't been properly assimilated (as in have grown into being accepted as a full part of the country/population). Meanwhile a lot of non-American countries they have always been white for most of their history and the concept of non-white immigration is fairly new (like 50 or 100 years only). So they aren't really used to the idea of a community within a community and are more likely to see it in the context of assimilation of immigrants.
(btw, I still think that economics or rather exconomic expectations play a lot into racism. For example, in Austria, if you are (Chinese/Japanese type) of Asian, people are going to have the blind expectation that you are either 1) a tourist 2) a musician 3) a restaurant owner. They might still treat you in a creepy manner, but tendencially people are going to be more likely to see you as somebody who has to be served (like a tourist) rather than as somebody they have to threaten. Meanwhile, if you are black the default position is going to be that you are a drug dealer and that they are going to be suspicious/hostile.
Meanwhile, Germany supposedly has a higher percentage of not as rich Asians and as a result Germany is supposedly slightly more default hostile to that group.
Similar with Arabs. Do they default to "You are probably a sheik or carpet salesman"? Or to "You are probably a terrorist" or to "You are probably a poor fucker who is coming to steal our jobs and talk in a heavy accent"?)
no subject
I think that saying that there is a world encompassing situation out there doesn't really excuse us from the reality of having to deal with each other on a personal level, in our own back yards, where race is again mixed up with a million of things, like sex, class, economic needs etc...
I tend to think of it as two Bell curves showing the amount of success you can get in your life and how likely you are to get it. The two curves are displaced from each other. With the non-white peak/median being much more to the right (meaning that amount of power/success the average non-white person can achieve is further down than what the average white person can/will achieve). It is possible for some non-white people to have more power than some white people. It is possible for some non-white people to be born into more personal privilege as some (few) white people.
If you asked some Ukranian sex worker she might agree that if she had the choice she would prefer to have been born as the daughter of some educated black intellectual in the land of the free, USA or as the daughter of some Chinese bureacrat even if it meant having to deal with race. However if you asked her whether she would prefer being born black in the same situation she is in (meaning the all things staying the same and only race changing), she might think she was still better off being white.
And yes, I think we completely have the obligation to try to get the medians of the two Bell curves closer together and to even the odds with whatever tools we have (whether it is affirmative actions, or a clean social system or development aid to third world countries).
The lighter the skin, the better the treatment.
I have always been really weirded out by that. Supposedly there are some poems etc that indicate that lighter skin was considered an advantage in India even before the British officially need one. Makes one wonder exactly what creepy glitch inside us makes us think that way (because usually those kind of distinctions can be traced back to Europeans, like in colonial Africa where tribes who looked less black often got the less bad jobs in the white administration and therefore created an economic divide which of course sometimes lead to antagonism between the tribes [which I understand was the reason for the genocide in Rwanda]).
It's also interesting to see the few cases when that doesn't apply, which usually seems to be related to issues of economic statue. Like I get the impression that in the UK black has a better reputation in white people's eyes than being Indian/Pakistani, but only in this area and because of the specific history of that place (the UK).
Or situations where white people insisted that people who by current ideas would be considered white two were some inferior race just because they insisted they were when no outsider would consider them non-white/different.
no subject
BTW, that wasn't meant as an attack on your statement in particular. I'm not bothered by your statement or that it is wrong to make it. It just feel that it is factually wrong, that it's more a questinon of degree than of "is impossible".
Besides, if the system gives advantages to lighter skinned non-whites (like Arabs or Chinese/Japanese) don't they profit from the system just as they suffer from it, too? Making them part of the system just as they know its downsides?
no subject
Okay. I think I have a glimmer of the issue here, and stick a fork in me and call me done, but I haven't really hit this one before (or if I did, it hasn't hit me quite so hard).
Most of the time when I refer to racism, I'm referring to specific acts and prejudices in the individual rather than the entire power-structure. But, yeah, I see what you mean about racism as a system of oppression and how, under this definition, the underdog can never be 'racist' because no single underdog can hope to upturn the system for even a single instant.
When I talk about racism, I tend to mean to the individual attitude and behaviours rather than the systemic power-imbalance that exists. I suspect that the definition of racism as an individual issue rather than a societal-structure issue is how the broader fandom (particularly the racism-denialists) perceives it.
By the logic that racism is an individual problem not a societal problem, white fandom is not racist, because they do not individually participate in racist behaviours. Collectively, they benefit and gain advantage through the system of racism that permeates our society - but that's not within their definition of racism.
By seeing racism as a system and systemic issue, PoCs cannot be racist against whites because the system will never favour PoC over whites.
Is this helpful at least in illuminating where I was coming from in the post?
I agree with you that racism is a system of oppression; but I look at it as an individual choice of behaviour as well.
no subject
In the end I think it's mostly semantics if one person uses the term "racist/racism" to refer to racist urges within the individual and to refer to the system as "systematic or institutionalized racism" or if you refer to the personal attitude as "racial prejudice" and to anything within the system as "racism".
(dictionary.com and other places carry both definitions)
Which of course leads to complications if people use the term to mean one thing and people understand the other.
So person one might say "I'm not racist, but I'm part of a racist system" (in the sense, of "I personally don't or try not to commit racist deeds") while the next person feels that that is a tautology.
Which of course makes sense too. It seems idiotic to say "I'm not a racist, I just profit from a racist system". On the other hand you have issues like "I didn't create it, I don't propagate it, I don't profit from it that much".
And of course there is the question of how the system came into place. If white people have racial prejudices and the country/system is made out of mostly white people then the country/system will have racial prejudices. Yet the indiviual has little influence over what the system does. Yet the system is made out of people. So how could the system be made less racist except if all people that make the system found a way to be indivually less racist/more fair? Which of course seems like a pretty unrealistic concept in itself, so most low key/low effort solution seems to be that indivual people try to suppress their personal racial prejudices and try to find the obvious places in the system where the inequalities are obvious and try to find way to level the field (with apologies or affirmative action or reparations or scholarships etc).
One more thought on semantics
The vibe I always get from the racial prejudice vs. racism distinction is always that it implies that racial prejudice isn't really that bad, it only gets bad once you add power to it.
While the other school of thought (and I don't know if that is the white school of thought or the European school of thought) is that racist thinking/feeling is the root of all evil.
One element of this school of thought is of course the shifting of blame. If the racist urges in people are the root of evil then we all have them and we all are a bit guilty. That school of thought probably combines this with the idea that corruption of power and oppression is also an inherent urge in people that needs to be similarly suppressed (and you can see oppression and corruption of power in non-white societies and power structures too) and that *who* has the power is somehow a stroke of luck. Basically, we are only as bad as everybody else is and just happened to end up with the ones in power in our hands through some hiccup in history.
Of course this school of thought also has its sensible side. I think the basic idea is that the key dehumanization. Racist thoughts are bad because they dehumanize other people. If you dehumanize others, if you somehow convince yourself that they are less than human that means that you are convincing yourself that you can do bad things to them. It means that you can convince yourself that it's okay to slaughter them or deny them their rights or generally treat them badly, whether they are a different gender or race or religion or caste or ethnicity.
So their key idea is that dehumanizing others is always a bad idea and inherently the root of bad things.
no subject
By the logic that racism is an individual problem not a societal problem, white fandom is not racist, because they do not individually participate in racist behaviours. Collectively, they benefit and gain advantage through the system of racism that permeates our society - but that's not within their definition of racism.
Thank you. This helps so much. I think we're on the same level here (I was so confused). I also look at racism as individual attitudes, and I also look at those attitudes as symptoms or side-effects of systemic racism. Because racism is a system, certain people are allowed to feel that, as an individual, they are unaffected by and not implicated in racism at all.
no subject
no subject
A lot of rambling from me...
I usually try to stay away from this kind of thing, but I have a certain trust in you because I trust your fiction. Strange to say it that way, but because I can not mind meld...it works.
My friend says she is a "Proud Black Woman" and that any black person claiming a get out of rasism free card as you put it is in itself racist. It is claiming that because you are in the current dominating minority 12% of Americans that you can not be racist. I don't think for one minute that you are racist...just want to say that. I told her the new minority that will soon be the new major top percent minority is latino/mexican also at 12% and climbing...so we are about to have more latino/mexican things happen in this country then all the flag stuff happened. TV wants ratings, so they go with the majority (76% of America is White according to the Census) to try to get more people to watch, so that is money driven.
She is also the first person of color that I have ever heard say outloud that if she gets fired she just might use "the race card" to get her good paying job back...the problem was she gave a discount to a friend that was employee only. I told her that was wrong to play the race card. She told me that if it helps her that she is going to do it. See, she could have thought that and not said it to me. I wished she did not tell me. What would Martin Luther King Jr. say to that aplication of logic? I called to tell her not to come in the day they got the video up of it. She thanked me.
I like the movie Crash because it brings up issues.
...
More rambling from me...
I think my black friends bring this kind of thing up with me to see what I think, and I say that I am part German, Scot-Irish, and Native American, so I can think that some of my German family in the past may have killed a Jewish person and my Scot-Irish family may have killed some of my Native American family well not killed but tried to delete from existance. My christian side knows that decendants of people in the bible might have been killed by some of my German family. Never really know.
I worked with a black woman in her fifties who said that slavery started in America. I asked her if she knew slavery was going on in other countries before before the established Native American tribes. Native American's may have kept slaves of other tribes they took over, but at least it kept a third of the tribe alive and they only killed off two thirds of them and not all. She looked at me like I was nuts. I said what. She said she was talking about black slaves and said she did not know Indians had slaves. I asked her if she knew some whites bought black slaves from other black tribes who had extra slaves from tribes they took over or fought with. She asked what I was talking about and said I was a crazy white girl. We laughted. I told her a college class she might ask the teacher if she could audit it or get literature from. She told me she was telling her daughter she is learing about black slavery from a white teenager at work. I said not to forget the crazy part. And we laughed.
I know very little compaired to some who research these topics. But, I think at the heart of racism is a level of not understanding what is or has gone on.
Hate to say it, but as our elderly are passing away so are some of the stronger rasist people who lived during the chang over...well maybe. I have heard very old white people say be careful of black people breaking in your house to steal things and give examples. I hear very old black people say that you have to be careful of white people killing you. It always makes me feel strange and in the past I changed the subject.
I am afraid if people act like or talk like the other will do something that it might bring it about. Some of my problem with some movies and songs. It is true over time the violence is not as bad. The exceptance of it in the work place is not as bad. And things need to keep going that route. If we want to talk of the past, lets remember the good.
...
Martin Luther King Jr. stood and talked about a dream. When I stood at the Lincoln monument last year on the words engraved to show where he stood, I looked out thinking of his dream. It may have started for black people, but it also means women and other groups...to me anyway. I thought that in Sci-fi or in Star Trek that it started out allowing differnt kinds of people and colors of people an oportunity to be together in a common goal. It was a start even with Captain Kirk. I remember the actors talking about it.
A dream...a goal...a way of thinking.
...
I promise last post...please forgive spelling PLEASE!
When I was very young a boy younger than me who was black walked up to me and I did not know him. He asked me why I hated him. I said I did not even know him. His explanation was that I was white so I hated him.
I shook my head at him. I said that him saying I was white and that was the only reason why I hate him was a racist thing for him to say and it hurt my feelings. He said no that he was black so he was not racist only white people are and they hate him because he is dark.
I was soooooo shocked. We continued to talk. His older brother came up and said for the most part why I was bothering his broher. We were sitting at that point and chatting like old friends. Still stunned.
The brother only heard me say that if you are any race in the world you can still be a racist and just because you do not say it or show it in any way noticible that if you are racist you are thinking it.
The little boy jumped up and told him to leave me alone that we were talking.
A black lady I was taking classes with in college told me of an entire company full of employees telling her her first day at work that she should think about getting a new job. She said why they said she was black. I got so mad my face turned red and the entire class felt outrage. It made me want to find these people and smack them in the head. Everytime she said "white workers" I felt a twinge of guilt because I am a white person. She did not mean it that way, but it made me feel like I should fix it.
When I was younger, and yes I am still in my 20's...I tried to change the subject or get out of situations where people were being white racist people. I tried to talk to the people who were of a different color who were doing it. I felt that from one person of different color talking to me thought of me as white and maybe someone who does it or maybe has insite. I tried to be truthful.
Now that I am older, I still do the same thing with different color people, but I squint my eyes at any white people who do or say it. I let them know I will not nod my head and go along or validate their actions or comments. Even when someone says they Jew'ed someone down from a price or N'rigging something.
I have experienced racism even being a white woman, I have experienced age and sex descrimination, and I have experienced culture and class baised discrimination. Each time I wanted to thump the person or people in the head and say they are acting on emotion or trained experience and not logic.
All of us operate on norms.
I am afraid if I take racism or other descriminations as a focal point that to some extent it leads to it or make it salient. Part of me fights that last sentence. I love seeing different things and people...I owe that to my mom. I owe any racist jokes that are in my memory that I do not use or agree with to my dad.
From one generation to the next the dream is being realized and soon children can learn from examples of their peers and parents instead of the secret quiet racism that learks in thoughts or words...in that I hope people really do learn from examples.
I know I have.
Re: I promise last post...please forgive spelling PLEASE!
Racism may not be every person's problem (Reposted to add in I ment "Racism may not be every person's problem on a daily or monthly basis..."), but to those who do not experience Racism personally (or often)comes the ability to be the race in the situation that may be the same as the person doing it or saying it. In that Racist person's mind (such as one white person to another, one black person to another, one Mexican/Latino person to another, one Oriental person to another and so on...), the person of the same race they are talking to is one of them.
In being considered one of them as in same race, it creats an ability for that person to make the Racist feel uncomfortable or put off even if a little. A hint or stern eye squint that says I don't like this and you better not do anything or say anything while I am around or I might tell what you said here or retaliate. It says this is not exceptable behavior or way of talking.
No matter who you are...class, race, sex, well known or not, and so on...if you are human you have experienced some type of discrimination in your life knowing or not knowing. It is up to each individual...every single human on the planet to let their dislike even if it is an eye squint in this type of thing.
In that, one person at a time...the social norm changes...and dreams become reality.
Via metafandom
With that statement you are completely dismissing the fact that in the real world there is a thing called power. Yeah, you can be privileged in some aspects of your life while being oppressed in some others. That doesn't change the fact that you, being white, have power over non-white people. Even if you don't want it.
So black people can use the N-word. You can't. Yeah, because you are white. That's not racism. That word was used by white people to dehumanize black people. The people offended, not the offenders, are the ones who decide who gets to use the insulting word, and who doesn't. After all, it's an insult towards them, not towards you.
Because the power isn't balanced, it's ridiculous to try to say that 'racial-prejudice' towards whites has the same effect that racism towards non-white people. It doesn't. The former is probably due to people experimenting the later.
Here: http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/content/2002-06/24wise.cfm
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0920-06.htm
I can't explain it better.
Re: Via metafandom
Racism is not just the problem of the largest minority group, which in the next 5 years will be the Mexican/Latino groups. It is a problem for all humans. It is something that will continue to be worked out as it decreases. It has been around since before written word.
To be told I can do something or not only on the grounds of the color of my skin or my sex ... to me that is racist or sexist (respective).
I think Tielan said something about whose problem is it. Something about if you are not racist and don't really experience it that you might ignore it...well there is a reason some might try to ignore it and even to the stupidity of thinking it does not exist...because if you say anything even that you don't like it someone from the group having racism used against them will tell you that you don't know what it is like and that if you experience it that it is not that bad (telling the victum to suck it up because it was not that bad or often), so you keep your mouth shut.
I happen to be one of the people foolish enough to think it still exists and that even in small ways we can influence each other for the better. It is a very good thing to talk about things from different sides and in that I respect Tielan and send thanks for keeping these topics open and truthful.
:)
Re: Via metafandom
"In our 14 months in Hong Kong, I learned some brutal lessons about racism. First, it is not the preserve of whites. Every race displays racial prejudice, is capable of racism, carries assumptions about its own virtue and superiority. Each racism, furthermore, is subtly different, reflecting the specificity of its own culture and history."
I think I was looking at it from a personal point of view. I was thinking of times when I saw racism or experienced it. I have lived in areas where white/light skin was not the norm. I have even had a group of people surround me and say they were going to beat me up because I was white...until a black person spoke up for me (I was not even a teenager at that point, but the majority of the group was).
In middleschool living in a different part of the country, I was nicknamed "Indian girl." It is obvious to see my dark straight long hair matching my grandfather's black hair who worked at the school, and he was a 4th Cherokee. Only when standing next to him was my Native American background so obvious...other wise my German Scoth-Irish medium skin and brown eyes takes center stage when someone decides my race and judges me.
One guy called me a squaw or how ever you spell it then it was "Indian girl." It was also interesting that the school mascot was "Indian Brave." We did the chant at ball games and so forth. One boy even made it part of a class poem he read to the class about how straight my hair is.
Then in a twisted string of events, a teacher had a group of Native Americans come in and talk to the class about culture. I was stupid enough to ask about how they celebrate birthdays. One Native American man having learned our mascot was "Indian Brave" and saw me as yet another stupid white person gave back a very harsh response to which I put my head down and wished I kept my mouth shut. Yes, it encouraged me to keep my mouth shut.
Back to link above with assumptions, the white kids saw me as "Indian girl" and the Native American visitors saw me as "stupid white girl." But, they did not see me.
I think that things that happen to us can alter us to bring out the good or the bad. I just hope when I die that I brought more good to the world then harm. So, in my own job, family, and community I try to keep my eyes and my heart open.
Re: I promise last post...please forgive spelling PLEASE!
On a higher up level, words mean a different thing depending on who says it, depnding on what the context is. A word might have a certain random real world dictionary definition, but it might have been used historically as an insult. Which means that in that context people are likely to assume you meant the historical meaning when you use it. Or a word might have a highly personalized meaning for example within for family referring to a specific family event, but it will only have that meaning as long as it's used by people within that context.
It might be the same word, the same combination of letters, but it can still mean a variety of things depending on context (and the context can include who says a word and to whom).
Re: I promise last post...please forgive spelling PLEASE!
One of the problems that might come from using racial words that have a historical negative influence is that it might confuse outsiders.
It makes it look like they do it but complain because an outsider does. To someone who does not say it and that it is not about, it can look like the same thing. The outsider might not fully understand the emotional force behind the word or words like the phrase "drunken Indian" referring to Native Americans.
It is a problem. The who is saying it and to whom can cause a problem depending if the person hearing it knows the from who and to whom. It causes one to have to judge someones racial background to see if it is an insult or not. In literature and media, that can get complicated. So why use the words or phrases that have such potential to harm?
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
An interesting way of putting it. But I think we can change the world...if enough people are willing to make their corner a little nicer.
no subject
no subject
At least here in the US PacificNorthwest (where I live), there is a history of racism against Asian Americans with Japanese internment camps in WWII and the exploitation and expulsion of the Chinese at various points in the last 100 years in different areas. I think it's very interesting how much this area tries to forget the past and welcome everyone into the tech industry. Except, you know, the other racial minorities that racist notions have shifted to, especially those in the lower income bracket who are less likely to have college degrees.
no subject
They had a meeting or a conclave at the anniversary to share the histories. I have to hunt down that article, they mentioned what looked to be some very interesting books in it.
no subject
no subject
no subject
Am I racist? Sure. Compared to my grandfather's generation, I'm not. But, I am. When I need help with something when out shopping, I'm quite specific as to who I will ask for help...
no subject
I wonder if a black person who needs assistance would look at it from the same or opposite perspective. Is it risk minimisation or racism? Would you ask a white scruffy-looking guy for help over a black man who's shopping with his wife and kids?
no subject
no subject
no subject
In the continuing rounds of fandom discussion of racism, I think we also see a great deal of another flavor of "not my problem" -- white fans who pride themselves on being "color-blind," and who think that as long as they/I aren't actively, deliberately and consciously promoting obvious racism they're "not racist" and therefore don't have to pay attention to racism. Once they/I have self-identified as "non-racist," it's easy for them/me (and their/my fellow white fans) to ignore fannish tendencies to focus on white characters, perpetuate racist meta-narratives, maintain or amplify stereotypes in source texts, etc. It's embarrassing to see how often white fans are willing to dismiss the concerns of fans of color regarding institutional and meta-narrative racism. Coming from a white fan or a white-dominated group of fans, "we don't consider race" is racist, "we just treat characters as individuals" is racist, "this fandom isn't racist (so your concerns aren't valid)" is racist...and it seems we always end up with "we're not racist, you must just be oversensitive," which is, of course, also racist.
no subject
I guess that's what I was trying to point out. That just because one doesn't go around referring to "niggers" and "coloureds" calling grown men "boy" and referring to "lynching" persons of colour, doesn't mean one isn't capable of racism.
In fandom, I'd say that consistently ignoring, denigrating, demeaning, or devaluing characters of colour is racism. (That's an 'or' not an 'and'.) Which means that a lot of fandom has a racist slant in their exclusionary policies towards characters of colour. (Bring in the pretty white characters, ignore or pair off the non-whites so we don't have to think about them.)
There was an interesting reference on
The evil, nasty, corrupt, unkind people are never "us". It's always "them".
no subject
no subject
no subject
Original Air Date: 11 February 1998
Captain Sisko has a full sensory vision of himself as an under-appreciated science fiction magazine writer in 1950s America.
Here via metafandom
Re: Here via metafandom
no subject
I'm having a really difficult time putting together this comment. I'm not sure how to respond to your post because I don't understand what definition of racism you're working with, but I realize I need to respond. Something is bothering me.
I understand racism as a system of oppression that doesn't just work on an individual level. It's about the privileging of white skin and the devaluing of dark skin. White privilege is a complex part of racism. As far as I'm concerned, this is something that has to be recognized when we're talking about race and racism. I think this is the generally accepted definition in anti-racist work, which I don't dissociate from fandom discussion of racism.
Under this definition, people of colour cannot be racist. Racism requires power and privilege. People of colour do not, in general, have racial power or privilege. White people do, which makes them automatically racist by virtue of this privilege. (I see a whole bunch of white readers going "WTF I AM NOT RACIST". Good luck with that:
So, I'm having problems with not understanding how you understand racism. You've mentioned that you're a person of colour, then stating that racism is your problem. I don't know if it's something I'm missing in your post, but are you saying people of colour need to look at how we're implicated in perpetuating racism? If that's the case, I totally agree.
But something still bothers me.
So, if racism isn't the problem of the people who aren't racist, and it's ignored by the people who are racist...that leaves racism as the victims' problem.
And I disagree that abuse is the problem of the victims; that bystanders have nothing to answer for.
Who are you considering not racist and who are you considering racist? Reading this sentence, I feel like you're separating "victim" from everyone else, both white and people of colour. As though white people can ever wipe themselves clean of the privilege that they get from the system of racism, and as though people of colour (those who can't pass as white) can ever gain that privilege that white people get. I just... I feel very confused, and I don't even know how to express why I feel like racism as a system of oppression is being denied. That people of colour can ever be bystanders to racism. We are the ones negatively affected by racism. We are the victims you're talking about.
I don't think we're at odds here though, which is why I'm confused about my reaction. I don't think there even exists a 'get out of racism free' card for people of colour to use. A person of colour might not be anti-racist, but of course racism is a POC problem. We have to live it every damn day.
no subject
Don't systems of power exist on every level and in every size though? If we are dealing with a country where non-white is the norm and the majority (Asian countries like Japan and China and India, South American countries like Brazil or Peru, African countries from Liberia to South Africa) then non-whites are the ones in government level power of their own domain. And they are capable in theory of strategically oppressing people of other shades within their domain (I'd like to think most of them don't because they know what it feels like or maybe they are just smarter/better).
It might never be as large scale because at the moment Western society/culture/milatary power still dominates the rest of the world (though I would argue that there are some "up and coming"s) but but it might be capable of feeling plenty of systematic to the people trapped within that system.
no subject
And they are capable in theory of strategically oppressing people of other shades within their domain (I'd like to think most of them don't because they know what it feels like or maybe they are just smarter/better).
Yes, they are, in addition to classism, sexism, homophobia, ableism, and a whole other slew of oppressive crap.
Still, on a global scale, there is still a hierarchy of race (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/sep/20/race.uk). The lighter the skin, the better the treatment. When I think about global racism, I think about the marketing of skin bleaching products, representation of light skin in media, freedom of mobility (travel & tourism), validity of academic credentials, transnational corporations, and other things that I think are tied up with various systems of oppression.
no subject
I was going to mention this in one of my responses but discovered i have a deadline so this will be short.
When I was a child, I didn't think much about 'colour'. I was Chinese Australian - both Chinese and Australian. I was teased at school because of my race, yes, but my father taught me to tease the other kids back because of their appearance, not because of their race.
eg. a tall, skinny boy with a shock of short hair called me "ching-chong". I called him "toilet brush" because he was skinny with short bushy hair. It wasn't about "race" per se it was about appearance. I looked different in one way, I got teased; he looked different in another way, he got teased.
I never had any major experience with discrimination - that I noticed. A few sneering comments when my friends and I caught the train home in high school: "Spot the Aussie!" To which my friends and I respond (in perfect Australian English), "Yeah, that would be us. Idiot."
But, yes, I remember learning about the 'hierarchy of race' via news about South Africa, and the whites being superior to the "coloureds" (people who weren't white but who weren't black either) and the "coloureds" being superior to the "blacks".
In Australia, there was once an outcry about the Greeks and Italians coming into the country - in the fifties and sixties. I don't think it really extended as far as legislation and organisation against them (other than the White Australia policy). In the seventies and eighties, that translated to "the Asian Invasion" - (although there've been Chinese Australians here since the days of the 1820s gold rush). In the nineties and noughties, it's been more about the middle eastern cultures - Lebanese, Arabs, and also the Western asian countries - India and Pakistan.
That's only fifty years, so Australian attitudes are changeable over that time.
More difficult to adjust - and probably consonant with the treatment of persons of African descent in the US - is the white settlers' treatment of the Australian Aborigines for the last two hundred years. While in land terms the Aborigines were treated by the white settlers as the Native Americans were treated by the US settlers, in legal terms their situation is more like the African Americans. They were once seen as "sub-human" and "unworthy to carry on their culture and lineage" - to the point where Aboriginal children were taken from their parents to be "brought up 'white'".
This is what I meant by a "get out of racism free" card. In Australian terms, the oppression that ensues from the system to a person of Chinese descent is fairly minimal - the worst outright oppression I'm going to find is some dumbfuck yobbo telling me to "go back home!"
For someone of Aboriginal descent, however, that card isn't an option. There's not just the history of oppression of their peopel by the Australian government, there's the perceptions of their culture, traditional stereotypes of "blacks" (Aborigines) being drunkards and wastrels, and the general inability to "whiten" themselves socially (ie. to successfully enter into "white culture" - academics, business, lifestyle).
This is just my (Australian) perspective on race relations - which, as
Did I say this was going to be short? Bugger.
no subject
I'm South Asian, and even though I live in Toronto (we love to talk about our multiculturalism like its always a good thing), I get those overt one-off "go back where you came from" comments too. I think a lot of my misunderstanding came from the fact that I don't understand the way race operates in Australia on the same level of understanding how it works in Canada. For instance, the Aboriginals in Canada face racism
Even though Toronto is this immigrant hub, there is a heightening anti-immigration sentiment that's uh, really disturbing. If you're white, then you were always here, and if you aren't, then you came from somewhere else. That's why I was totally missing your understanding of the 'get out of racism free' card. No one in the city gets a pass like that unless their skin is white and their accent is Canadian. There's a hierarchy of race, but a hiearchy of racism doesn't fit what I've learned about Canada. In my understanding, racism manifests itself differently in different contexts for different people. For myself, I will be affected by aspects of institutional racism that another person of colour from another race will not be affected by, and vice versa.
For instance, after 9/11, I am read as Muslim even though I'm not, especially because of my last name (until I changed it legally), and somehow Muslim is becoming equated with terrorist. There's this notion that Canada is harboring terrorists, so when traveling abroad, I'd be stopped at airports, my luggage slashed, and so on. For a time after, I didn't feel safe enough to google anything about Al-Qaeda because I thought no one would believe I'm not a terrorist.
But an Aboriginal, or Chinese, or black or whoever else might not get this type of treatment - at least not for the same reasons - the racism won't manifest in the same way. Even so, I don't have to face the same kind of racism that Aboriginals face that is embedded into our colonial laws (The Indian Act is one hell of a piece of legislation). The "Asian Invasion" is still mentioned here at times. Some of my friends get stopped on the street with random comments like "there are too many Chinese people in this city" even if they're not Chinese at all.
So, I keep getting long winded in why I completely misunderstood where you're coming from. (By the way, I'm not countering you - I'm just exchanging words.)
no subject
(where every new wave of immigration is hated until the next wave when people are busy hating the new wave)
I think racism still exists (as in the darker your skin is, the less likely that the penalties are going to go away even though you have been replaced by a new wave of immigration) in addition to it but anti-immigrantism manifests itself in many similar ways (less education, poorer, discrimination on the job market, offensive jokes, ranted against by politicians, being physically attacked by hostile locals, not being let into certain places).
The US has a different perspective because they have two groups (former slaves and Native Americans) who have been around in their country for centuries and they still haven't been properly assimilated (as in have grown into being accepted as a full part of the country/population). Meanwhile a lot of non-American countries they have always been white for most of their history and the concept of non-white immigration is fairly new (like 50 or 100 years only). So they aren't really used to the idea of a community within a community and are more likely to see it in the context of assimilation of immigrants.
(btw, I still think that economics or rather exconomic expectations play a lot into racism. For example, in Austria, if you are (Chinese/Japanese type) of Asian, people are going to have the blind expectation that you are either 1) a tourist 2) a musician 3) a restaurant owner. They might still treat you in a creepy manner, but tendencially people are going to be more likely to see you as somebody who has to be served (like a tourist) rather than as somebody they have to threaten. Meanwhile, if you are black the default position is going to be that you are a drug dealer and that they are going to be suspicious/hostile.
Meanwhile, Germany supposedly has a higher percentage of not as rich Asians and as a result Germany is supposedly slightly more default hostile to that group.
Similar with Arabs. Do they default to "You are probably a sheik or carpet salesman"? Or to "You are probably a terrorist" or to "You are probably a poor fucker who is coming to steal our jobs and talk in a heavy accent"?)
no subject
I think that saying that there is a world encompassing situation out there doesn't really excuse us from the reality of having to deal with each other on a personal level, in our own back yards, where race is again mixed up with a million of things, like sex, class, economic needs etc...
I tend to think of it as two Bell curves showing the amount of success you can get in your life and how likely you are to get it. The two curves are displaced from each other. With the non-white peak/median being much more to the right (meaning that amount of power/success the average non-white person can achieve is further down than what the average white person can/will achieve). It is possible for some non-white people to have more power than some white people. It is possible for some non-white people to be born into more personal privilege as some (few) white people.
If you asked some Ukranian sex worker she might agree that if she had the choice she would prefer to have been born as the daughter of some educated black intellectual in the land of the free, USA or as the daughter of some Chinese bureacrat even if it meant having to deal with race. However if you asked her whether she would prefer being born black in the same situation she is in (meaning the all things staying the same and only race changing), she might think she was still better off being white.
And yes, I think we completely have the obligation to try to get the medians of the two Bell curves closer together and to even the odds with whatever tools we have (whether it is affirmative actions, or a clean social system or development aid to third world countries).
The lighter the skin, the better the treatment.
I have always been really weirded out by that. Supposedly there are some poems etc that indicate that lighter skin was considered an advantage in India even before the British officially need one. Makes one wonder exactly what creepy glitch inside us makes us think that way (because usually those kind of distinctions can be traced back to Europeans, like in colonial Africa where tribes who looked less black often got the less bad jobs in the white administration and therefore created an economic divide which of course sometimes lead to antagonism between the tribes [which I understand was the reason for the genocide in Rwanda]).
It's also interesting to see the few cases when that doesn't apply, which usually seems to be related to issues of economic statue. Like I get the impression that in the UK black has a better reputation in white people's eyes than being Indian/Pakistani, but only in this area and because of the specific history of that place (the UK).
Or situations where white people insisted that people who by current ideas would be considered white two were some inferior race just because they insisted they were when no outsider would consider them non-white/different.
no subject
BTW, that wasn't meant as an attack on your statement in particular. I'm not bothered by your statement or that it is wrong to make it. It just feel that it is factually wrong, that it's more a questinon of degree than of "is impossible".
Besides, if the system gives advantages to lighter skinned non-whites (like Arabs or Chinese/Japanese) don't they profit from the system just as they suffer from it, too? Making them part of the system just as they know its downsides?
no subject
Okay. I think I have a glimmer of the issue here, and stick a fork in me and call me done, but I haven't really hit this one before (or if I did, it hasn't hit me quite so hard).
Most of the time when I refer to racism, I'm referring to specific acts and prejudices in the individual rather than the entire power-structure. But, yeah, I see what you mean about racism as a system of oppression and how, under this definition, the underdog can never be 'racist' because no single underdog can hope to upturn the system for even a single instant.
When I talk about racism, I tend to mean to the individual attitude and behaviours rather than the systemic power-imbalance that exists. I suspect that the definition of racism as an individual issue rather than a societal-structure issue is how the broader fandom (particularly the racism-denialists) perceives it.
By the logic that racism is an individual problem not a societal problem, white fandom is not racist, because they do not individually participate in racist behaviours. Collectively, they benefit and gain advantage through the system of racism that permeates our society - but that's not within their definition of racism.
By seeing racism as a system and systemic issue, PoCs cannot be racist against whites because the system will never favour PoC over whites.
Is this helpful at least in illuminating where I was coming from in the post?
I agree with you that racism is a system of oppression; but I look at it as an individual choice of behaviour as well.
no subject
In the end I think it's mostly semantics if one person uses the term "racist/racism" to refer to racist urges within the individual and to refer to the system as "systematic or institutionalized racism" or if you refer to the personal attitude as "racial prejudice" and to anything within the system as "racism".
(dictionary.com and other places carry both definitions)
Which of course leads to complications if people use the term to mean one thing and people understand the other.
So person one might say "I'm not racist, but I'm part of a racist system" (in the sense, of "I personally don't or try not to commit racist deeds") while the next person feels that that is a tautology.
Which of course makes sense too. It seems idiotic to say "I'm not a racist, I just profit from a racist system". On the other hand you have issues like "I didn't create it, I don't propagate it, I don't profit from it that much".
And of course there is the question of how the system came into place. If white people have racial prejudices and the country/system is made out of mostly white people then the country/system will have racial prejudices. Yet the indiviual has little influence over what the system does. Yet the system is made out of people. So how could the system be made less racist except if all people that make the system found a way to be indivually less racist/more fair? Which of course seems like a pretty unrealistic concept in itself, so most low key/low effort solution seems to be that indivual people try to suppress their personal racial prejudices and try to find the obvious places in the system where the inequalities are obvious and try to find way to level the field (with apologies or affirmative action or reparations or scholarships etc).
One more thought on semantics
The vibe I always get from the racial prejudice vs. racism distinction is always that it implies that racial prejudice isn't really that bad, it only gets bad once you add power to it.
While the other school of thought (and I don't know if that is the white school of thought or the European school of thought) is that racist thinking/feeling is the root of all evil.
One element of this school of thought is of course the shifting of blame. If the racist urges in people are the root of evil then we all have them and we all are a bit guilty. That school of thought probably combines this with the idea that corruption of power and oppression is also an inherent urge in people that needs to be similarly suppressed (and you can see oppression and corruption of power in non-white societies and power structures too) and that *who* has the power is somehow a stroke of luck. Basically, we are only as bad as everybody else is and just happened to end up with the ones in power in our hands through some hiccup in history.
Of course this school of thought also has its sensible side. I think the basic idea is that the key dehumanization. Racist thoughts are bad because they dehumanize other people. If you dehumanize others, if you somehow convince yourself that they are less than human that means that you are convincing yourself that you can do bad things to them. It means that you can convince yourself that it's okay to slaughter them or deny them their rights or generally treat them badly, whether they are a different gender or race or religion or caste or ethnicity.
So their key idea is that dehumanizing others is always a bad idea and inherently the root of bad things.
no subject
By the logic that racism is an individual problem not a societal problem, white fandom is not racist, because they do not individually participate in racist behaviours. Collectively, they benefit and gain advantage through the system of racism that permeates our society - but that's not within their definition of racism.
Thank you. This helps so much. I think we're on the same level here (I was so confused). I also look at racism as individual attitudes, and I also look at those attitudes as symptoms or side-effects of systemic racism. Because racism is a system, certain people are allowed to feel that, as an individual, they are unaffected by and not implicated in racism at all.
no subject