racism: not my problem

[tielan]

I get the feeling that some folks don't think racism is their problem.

On one hand, I feel the agreement bubbling up within me. I'm not overtly or intentionally racist. I try to judge people by who they are not what their background is. I don't have problems with people as racial types, I have problems with people as individuals.

On the other hand, the questioner within me demands to know: "If racism isn't my problem...whose problem is it?"

I considered that this morning and here's how I laid it out.

I guess I have a 'get-out-of-racism-free' card, in a way. I'm a Person-of-Colour but I tend to think of myself as being brought up white - the old banana joke. It would be nice to see more Asian heroes and heroines in mainstream TV but I take what I can where I find it - and sometimes my connection isn't with 'the Asian' character at all. My racial type has a different history of oppression, one that involved being looked down upon but doesn't involve slavery and the denigration of humanity. (And these days, all your university place belong to us. Muahahahaha! *cough*)

Still, just because I can use the 'get-out-of-racism-free' card doesn't mean I should.

If racism isn't the problem of the people who aren't racist - if it's the province of the people who are racist, then we're putting a lot of faith in humanity's ability to self-criticise. Abusers are not generally inclined to admit to being wrong, let alone likely to change their behaviour to accomodate the victim.

So, if racism isn't the problem of the people who aren't racist, and it's ignored by the people who are racist...that leaves racism as the victims' problem.

And I disagree that abuse is the problem of the victims; that bystanders have nothing to answer for.

So...racism is my problem, too.

Comments

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Just... Yes! :)

A lot of rambling from me...

[violetvision78.livejournal.com]

Let me start by saying I am sick today and up late...LOL!

I usually try to stay away from this kind of thing, but I have a certain trust in you because I trust your fiction. Strange to say it that way, but because I can not mind meld...it works.

My friend says she is a "Proud Black Woman" and that any black person claiming a get out of rasism free card as you put it is in itself racist. It is claiming that because you are in the current dominating minority 12% of Americans that you can not be racist. I don't think for one minute that you are racist...just want to say that. I told her the new minority that will soon be the new major top percent minority is latino/mexican also at 12% and climbing...so we are about to have more latino/mexican things happen in this country then all the flag stuff happened. TV wants ratings, so they go with the majority (76% of America is White according to the Census) to try to get more people to watch, so that is money driven.

She is also the first person of color that I have ever heard say outloud that if she gets fired she just might use "the race card" to get her good paying job back...the problem was she gave a discount to a friend that was employee only. I told her that was wrong to play the race card. She told me that if it helps her that she is going to do it. See, she could have thought that and not said it to me. I wished she did not tell me. What would Martin Luther King Jr. say to that aplication of logic? I called to tell her not to come in the day they got the video up of it. She thanked me.

I like the movie Crash because it brings up issues.

...

More rambling from me...

[violetvision78.livejournal.com]

One time she used the N word. I said if she used it then I can. She said no. I said why not. She asked if I really want to use it or if I was making a point. I said answer the question. She said only black people can say it. So I told her the reason why I am not allowed to say it is because I am white. She said yes. I said that in itself is racist. I am white so I can not use a word that black people use. I don't want to say the word. I understand from an outsider reason of her explanation why some people of color use it, but not everyone does.

I think my black friends bring this kind of thing up with me to see what I think, and I say that I am part German, Scot-Irish, and Native American, so I can think that some of my German family in the past may have killed a Jewish person and my Scot-Irish family may have killed some of my Native American family well not killed but tried to delete from existance. My christian side knows that decendants of people in the bible might have been killed by some of my German family. Never really know.

I worked with a black woman in her fifties who said that slavery started in America. I asked her if she knew slavery was going on in other countries before before the established Native American tribes. Native American's may have kept slaves of other tribes they took over, but at least it kept a third of the tribe alive and they only killed off two thirds of them and not all. She looked at me like I was nuts. I said what. She said she was talking about black slaves and said she did not know Indians had slaves. I asked her if she knew some whites bought black slaves from other black tribes who had extra slaves from tribes they took over or fought with. She asked what I was talking about and said I was a crazy white girl. We laughted. I told her a college class she might ask the teacher if she could audit it or get literature from. She told me she was telling her daughter she is learing about black slavery from a white teenager at work. I said not to forget the crazy part. And we laughed.

I know very little compaired to some who research these topics. But, I think at the heart of racism is a level of not understanding what is or has gone on.

Hate to say it, but as our elderly are passing away so are some of the stronger rasist people who lived during the chang over...well maybe. I have heard very old white people say be careful of black people breaking in your house to steal things and give examples. I hear very old black people say that you have to be careful of white people killing you. It always makes me feel strange and in the past I changed the subject.

I am afraid if people act like or talk like the other will do something that it might bring it about. Some of my problem with some movies and songs. It is true over time the violence is not as bad. The exceptance of it in the work place is not as bad. And things need to keep going that route. If we want to talk of the past, lets remember the good.

...
Martin Luther King Jr. stood and talked about a dream. When I stood at the Lincoln monument last year on the words engraved to show where he stood, I looked out thinking of his dream. It may have started for black people, but it also means women and other groups...to me anyway. I thought that in Sci-fi or in Star Trek that it started out allowing differnt kinds of people and colors of people an oportunity to be together in a common goal. It was a start even with Captain Kirk. I remember the actors talking about it.

A dream...a goal...a way of thinking.

...

[(Anonymous)]

This reminds me of the French expression "Qui ne dit mot consent", ie "He who does not speak up agrees". I personally don't believe there is such a thing as an unconcerned non-racist, non-discriminated against person. Just by not speaking up against the racism they witness in every day life, they are in fact complicit in the discrimination. So yeah, I think it very much is their problem too.

[ticklie.livejournal.com]

Sorry, that was me. And I of course include myself in that 'they' I spoke of.

[bramble-rose.livejournal.com]

Respect, kindness, forgiveness...these are the things I teach my kids. Treat EVERYONE YOU MEET this way. When they get older they learn a new word "solidarity." Standing together as a community against racism, poverty, abuse, discrimination. I don't think we can change the world, but we can make our corner a little nicer.

[tielan]

I don't think we can change the world, but we can make our corner a little nicer.

An interesting way of putting it. But I think we can change the world...if enough people are willing to make their corner a little nicer.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

I definitely agree that racism is everyone's problem.

At least here in the US PacificNorthwest (where I live), there is a history of racism against Asian Americans with Japanese internment camps in WWII and the exploitation and expulsion of the Chinese at various points in the last 100 years in different areas. I think it's very interesting how much this area tries to forget the past and welcome everyone into the tech industry. Except, you know, the other racial minorities that racist notions have shifted to, especially those in the lower income bracket who are less likely to have college degrees.

[tielan]

I read something about that the other day - about Japanese internment camps during WWII and how there were some that were built in Indian reservations in order to develop those areas in infrastructure.

They had a meeting or a conclave at the anniversary to share the histories. I have to hunt down that article, they mentioned what looked to be some very interesting books in it.

[tv-elf.livejournal.com]

Racism is everyone's problem, but it carries such a black cloud of energy, that even people who want to fight it get scared of confronting it.

Am I racist? Sure. Compared to my grandfather's generation, I'm not. But, I am. When I need help with something when out shopping, I'm quite specific as to who I will ask for help...

[tielan]

Now, that's interesting.

I wonder if a black person who needs assistance would look at it from the same or opposite perspective. Is it risk minimisation or racism? Would you ask a white scruffy-looking guy for help over a black man who's shopping with his wife and kids?

[mmoneurere.livejournal.com]

(here via metafandom)

In the continuing rounds of fandom discussion of racism, I think we also see a great deal of another flavor of "not my problem" -- white fans who pride themselves on being "color-blind," and who think that as long as they/I aren't actively, deliberately and consciously promoting obvious racism they're "not racist" and therefore don't have to pay attention to racism. Once they/I have self-identified as "non-racist," it's easy for them/me (and their/my fellow white fans) to ignore fannish tendencies to focus on white characters, perpetuate racist meta-narratives, maintain or amplify stereotypes in source texts, etc. It's embarrassing to see how often white fans are willing to dismiss the concerns of fans of color regarding institutional and meta-narrative racism. Coming from a white fan or a white-dominated group of fans, "we don't consider race" is racist, "we just treat characters as individuals" is racist, "this fandom isn't racist (so your concerns aren't valid)" is racist...and it seems we always end up with "we're not racist, you must just be oversensitive," which is, of course, also racist.

[tielan]

I think we also see a great deal of another flavor of "not my problem" -- white fans who pride themselves on being "color-blind," and who think that as long as they/I aren't actively, deliberately and consciously promoting obvious racism they're "not racist" and therefore don't have to pay attention to racism.

I guess that's what I was trying to point out. That just because one doesn't go around referring to "niggers" and "coloureds" calling grown men "boy" and referring to "lynching" persons of colour, doesn't mean one isn't capable of racism.

In fandom, I'd say that consistently ignoring, denigrating, demeaning, or devaluing characters of colour is racism. (That's an 'or' not an 'and'.) Which means that a lot of fandom has a racist slant in their exclusionary policies towards characters of colour. (Bring in the pretty white characters, ignore or pair off the non-whites so we don't have to think about them.)

There was an interesting reference on witchqueen's LJ the other week, about a theory that states that a good liberal person is incapable of admitting to any behaviour in themselves that might be racist unless their worldview allows for them to be capable of unintentionally bigoted behaviour. And most people aren't capable of saying the words "I am wrong," and meaning them. (The fandom term "heidipology" is a classic example of not actually saying sorry.)

The evil, nasty, corrupt, unkind people are never "us". It's always "them".

Here via metafandom

[veleda-k.livejournal.com]

Racism is definitely my problem. I'm white. I both benefit from and perpetuate racism. Is this because I'm cruel, or a bad person? No. It's the way my culture and society are set up. But that doesn't make me not responsible.

Re: Here via metafandom

[tielan]

That's brilliantly concise.

[tenninch.livejournal.com]

Here from metafandom.

I'm having a really difficult time putting together this comment. I'm not sure how to respond to your post because I don't understand what definition of racism you're working with, but I realize I need to respond. Something is bothering me.

I understand racism as a system of oppression that doesn't just work on an individual level. It's about the privileging of white skin and the devaluing of dark skin. White privilege is a complex part of racism. As far as I'm concerned, this is something that has to be recognized when we're talking about race and racism. I think this is the generally accepted definition in anti-racist work, which I don't dissociate from fandom discussion of racism.

Under this definition, people of colour cannot be racist. Racism requires power and privilege. People of colour do not, in general, have racial power or privilege. White people do, which makes them automatically racist by virtue of this privilege. (I see a whole bunch of white readers going "WTF I AM NOT RACIST". Good luck with that: debunkingwhite). That is not to say that a person of colour is never implicated in perpetuating racist ideas or holding prejudice, nor does it mean that a person of colour cannot internalize racism.

So, I'm having problems with not understanding how you understand racism. You've mentioned that you're a person of colour, then stating that racism is your problem. I don't know if it's something I'm missing in your post, but are you saying people of colour need to look at how we're implicated in perpetuating racism? If that's the case, I totally agree.

But something still bothers me.

So, if racism isn't the problem of the people who aren't racist, and it's ignored by the people who are racist...that leaves racism as the victims' problem.

And I disagree that abuse is the problem of the victims; that bystanders have nothing to answer for.

Who are you considering not racist and who are you considering racist? Reading this sentence, I feel like you're separating "victim" from everyone else, both white and people of colour. As though white people can ever wipe themselves clean of the privilege that they get from the system of racism, and as though people of colour (those who can't pass as white) can ever gain that privilege that white people get. I just... I feel very confused, and I don't even know how to express why I feel like racism as a system of oppression is being denied. That people of colour can ever be bystanders to racism. We are the ones negatively affected by racism. We are the victims you're talking about.

I don't think we're at odds here though, which is why I'm confused about my reaction. I don't think there even exists a 'get out of racism free' card for people of colour to use. A person of colour might not be anti-racist, but of course racism is a POC problem. We have to live it every damn day.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Under this definition, people of colour cannot be racist. Racism requires power and privilege. People of colour do not, in general, have racial power or privilege.

Don't systems of power exist on every level and in every size though? If we are dealing with a country where non-white is the norm and the majority (Asian countries like Japan and China and India, South American countries like Brazil or Peru, African countries from Liberia to South Africa) then non-whites are the ones in government level power of their own domain. And they are capable in theory of strategically oppressing people of other shades within their domain (I'd like to think most of them don't because they know what it feels like or maybe they are just smarter/better).

It might never be as large scale because at the moment Western society/culture/milatary power still dominates the rest of the world (though I would argue that there are some "up and coming"s) but but it might be capable of feeling plenty of systematic to the people trapped within that system.

[elz.livejournal.com]

Great post, and very well said. I tend to think that we should all be trying to be the best people we can be at all times - that's a hard thing to do, and I don't live up to my own standards very often, but the important thing is to try, and not to shut our eyes and say "that's not my problem." Why should someone who's suffering from injustice have to convince me that I should care? If I can help other people to be less oppressed or to feel less alone or to be less unhappy, why wouldn't I want to?

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Just... Yes! :)

A lot of rambling from me...

[violetvision78.livejournal.com]

Let me start by saying I am sick today and up late...LOL!

I usually try to stay away from this kind of thing, but I have a certain trust in you because I trust your fiction. Strange to say it that way, but because I can not mind meld...it works.

My friend says she is a "Proud Black Woman" and that any black person claiming a get out of rasism free card as you put it is in itself racist. It is claiming that because you are in the current dominating minority 12% of Americans that you can not be racist. I don't think for one minute that you are racist...just want to say that. I told her the new minority that will soon be the new major top percent minority is latino/mexican also at 12% and climbing...so we are about to have more latino/mexican things happen in this country then all the flag stuff happened. TV wants ratings, so they go with the majority (76% of America is White according to the Census) to try to get more people to watch, so that is money driven.

She is also the first person of color that I have ever heard say outloud that if she gets fired she just might use "the race card" to get her good paying job back...the problem was she gave a discount to a friend that was employee only. I told her that was wrong to play the race card. She told me that if it helps her that she is going to do it. See, she could have thought that and not said it to me. I wished she did not tell me. What would Martin Luther King Jr. say to that aplication of logic? I called to tell her not to come in the day they got the video up of it. She thanked me.

I like the movie Crash because it brings up issues.

...

More rambling from me...

[violetvision78.livejournal.com]

One time she used the N word. I said if she used it then I can. She said no. I said why not. She asked if I really want to use it or if I was making a point. I said answer the question. She said only black people can say it. So I told her the reason why I am not allowed to say it is because I am white. She said yes. I said that in itself is racist. I am white so I can not use a word that black people use. I don't want to say the word. I understand from an outsider reason of her explanation why some people of color use it, but not everyone does.

I think my black friends bring this kind of thing up with me to see what I think, and I say that I am part German, Scot-Irish, and Native American, so I can think that some of my German family in the past may have killed a Jewish person and my Scot-Irish family may have killed some of my Native American family well not killed but tried to delete from existance. My christian side knows that decendants of people in the bible might have been killed by some of my German family. Never really know.

I worked with a black woman in her fifties who said that slavery started in America. I asked her if she knew slavery was going on in other countries before before the established Native American tribes. Native American's may have kept slaves of other tribes they took over, but at least it kept a third of the tribe alive and they only killed off two thirds of them and not all. She looked at me like I was nuts. I said what. She said she was talking about black slaves and said she did not know Indians had slaves. I asked her if she knew some whites bought black slaves from other black tribes who had extra slaves from tribes they took over or fought with. She asked what I was talking about and said I was a crazy white girl. We laughted. I told her a college class she might ask the teacher if she could audit it or get literature from. She told me she was telling her daughter she is learing about black slavery from a white teenager at work. I said not to forget the crazy part. And we laughed.

I know very little compaired to some who research these topics. But, I think at the heart of racism is a level of not understanding what is or has gone on.

Hate to say it, but as our elderly are passing away so are some of the stronger rasist people who lived during the chang over...well maybe. I have heard very old white people say be careful of black people breaking in your house to steal things and give examples. I hear very old black people say that you have to be careful of white people killing you. It always makes me feel strange and in the past I changed the subject.

I am afraid if people act like or talk like the other will do something that it might bring it about. Some of my problem with some movies and songs. It is true over time the violence is not as bad. The exceptance of it in the work place is not as bad. And things need to keep going that route. If we want to talk of the past, lets remember the good.

...
Martin Luther King Jr. stood and talked about a dream. When I stood at the Lincoln monument last year on the words engraved to show where he stood, I looked out thinking of his dream. It may have started for black people, but it also means women and other groups...to me anyway. I thought that in Sci-fi or in Star Trek that it started out allowing differnt kinds of people and colors of people an oportunity to be together in a common goal. It was a start even with Captain Kirk. I remember the actors talking about it.

A dream...a goal...a way of thinking.

...

[(Anonymous)]

This reminds me of the French expression "Qui ne dit mot consent", ie "He who does not speak up agrees". I personally don't believe there is such a thing as an unconcerned non-racist, non-discriminated against person. Just by not speaking up against the racism they witness in every day life, they are in fact complicit in the discrimination. So yeah, I think it very much is their problem too.

[ticklie.livejournal.com]

Sorry, that was me. And I of course include myself in that 'they' I spoke of.

[bramble-rose.livejournal.com]

Respect, kindness, forgiveness...these are the things I teach my kids. Treat EVERYONE YOU MEET this way. When they get older they learn a new word "solidarity." Standing together as a community against racism, poverty, abuse, discrimination. I don't think we can change the world, but we can make our corner a little nicer.

[tielan]

I don't think we can change the world, but we can make our corner a little nicer.

An interesting way of putting it. But I think we can change the world...if enough people are willing to make their corner a little nicer.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

I definitely agree that racism is everyone's problem.

At least here in the US PacificNorthwest (where I live), there is a history of racism against Asian Americans with Japanese internment camps in WWII and the exploitation and expulsion of the Chinese at various points in the last 100 years in different areas. I think it's very interesting how much this area tries to forget the past and welcome everyone into the tech industry. Except, you know, the other racial minorities that racist notions have shifted to, especially those in the lower income bracket who are less likely to have college degrees.

[tielan]

I read something about that the other day - about Japanese internment camps during WWII and how there were some that were built in Indian reservations in order to develop those areas in infrastructure.

They had a meeting or a conclave at the anniversary to share the histories. I have to hunt down that article, they mentioned what looked to be some very interesting books in it.

[tv-elf.livejournal.com]

Racism is everyone's problem, but it carries such a black cloud of energy, that even people who want to fight it get scared of confronting it.

Am I racist? Sure. Compared to my grandfather's generation, I'm not. But, I am. When I need help with something when out shopping, I'm quite specific as to who I will ask for help...

[tielan]

Now, that's interesting.

I wonder if a black person who needs assistance would look at it from the same or opposite perspective. Is it risk minimisation or racism? Would you ask a white scruffy-looking guy for help over a black man who's shopping with his wife and kids?

[mmoneurere.livejournal.com]

(here via metafandom)

In the continuing rounds of fandom discussion of racism, I think we also see a great deal of another flavor of "not my problem" -- white fans who pride themselves on being "color-blind," and who think that as long as they/I aren't actively, deliberately and consciously promoting obvious racism they're "not racist" and therefore don't have to pay attention to racism. Once they/I have self-identified as "non-racist," it's easy for them/me (and their/my fellow white fans) to ignore fannish tendencies to focus on white characters, perpetuate racist meta-narratives, maintain or amplify stereotypes in source texts, etc. It's embarrassing to see how often white fans are willing to dismiss the concerns of fans of color regarding institutional and meta-narrative racism. Coming from a white fan or a white-dominated group of fans, "we don't consider race" is racist, "we just treat characters as individuals" is racist, "this fandom isn't racist (so your concerns aren't valid)" is racist...and it seems we always end up with "we're not racist, you must just be oversensitive," which is, of course, also racist.

[tielan]

I think we also see a great deal of another flavor of "not my problem" -- white fans who pride themselves on being "color-blind," and who think that as long as they/I aren't actively, deliberately and consciously promoting obvious racism they're "not racist" and therefore don't have to pay attention to racism.

I guess that's what I was trying to point out. That just because one doesn't go around referring to "niggers" and "coloureds" calling grown men "boy" and referring to "lynching" persons of colour, doesn't mean one isn't capable of racism.

In fandom, I'd say that consistently ignoring, denigrating, demeaning, or devaluing characters of colour is racism. (That's an 'or' not an 'and'.) Which means that a lot of fandom has a racist slant in their exclusionary policies towards characters of colour. (Bring in the pretty white characters, ignore or pair off the non-whites so we don't have to think about them.)

There was an interesting reference on witchqueen's LJ the other week, about a theory that states that a good liberal person is incapable of admitting to any behaviour in themselves that might be racist unless their worldview allows for them to be capable of unintentionally bigoted behaviour. And most people aren't capable of saying the words "I am wrong," and meaning them. (The fandom term "heidipology" is a classic example of not actually saying sorry.)

The evil, nasty, corrupt, unkind people are never "us". It's always "them".

Here via metafandom

[veleda-k.livejournal.com]

Racism is definitely my problem. I'm white. I both benefit from and perpetuate racism. Is this because I'm cruel, or a bad person? No. It's the way my culture and society are set up. But that doesn't make me not responsible.

Re: Here via metafandom

[tielan]

That's brilliantly concise.

[tenninch.livejournal.com]

Here from metafandom.

I'm having a really difficult time putting together this comment. I'm not sure how to respond to your post because I don't understand what definition of racism you're working with, but I realize I need to respond. Something is bothering me.

I understand racism as a system of oppression that doesn't just work on an individual level. It's about the privileging of white skin and the devaluing of dark skin. White privilege is a complex part of racism. As far as I'm concerned, this is something that has to be recognized when we're talking about race and racism. I think this is the generally accepted definition in anti-racist work, which I don't dissociate from fandom discussion of racism.

Under this definition, people of colour cannot be racist. Racism requires power and privilege. People of colour do not, in general, have racial power or privilege. White people do, which makes them automatically racist by virtue of this privilege. (I see a whole bunch of white readers going "WTF I AM NOT RACIST". Good luck with that: debunkingwhite). That is not to say that a person of colour is never implicated in perpetuating racist ideas or holding prejudice, nor does it mean that a person of colour cannot internalize racism.

So, I'm having problems with not understanding how you understand racism. You've mentioned that you're a person of colour, then stating that racism is your problem. I don't know if it's something I'm missing in your post, but are you saying people of colour need to look at how we're implicated in perpetuating racism? If that's the case, I totally agree.

But something still bothers me.

So, if racism isn't the problem of the people who aren't racist, and it's ignored by the people who are racist...that leaves racism as the victims' problem.

And I disagree that abuse is the problem of the victims; that bystanders have nothing to answer for.

Who are you considering not racist and who are you considering racist? Reading this sentence, I feel like you're separating "victim" from everyone else, both white and people of colour. As though white people can ever wipe themselves clean of the privilege that they get from the system of racism, and as though people of colour (those who can't pass as white) can ever gain that privilege that white people get. I just... I feel very confused, and I don't even know how to express why I feel like racism as a system of oppression is being denied. That people of colour can ever be bystanders to racism. We are the ones negatively affected by racism. We are the victims you're talking about.

I don't think we're at odds here though, which is why I'm confused about my reaction. I don't think there even exists a 'get out of racism free' card for people of colour to use. A person of colour might not be anti-racist, but of course racism is a POC problem. We have to live it every damn day.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Under this definition, people of colour cannot be racist. Racism requires power and privilege. People of colour do not, in general, have racial power or privilege.

Don't systems of power exist on every level and in every size though? If we are dealing with a country where non-white is the norm and the majority (Asian countries like Japan and China and India, South American countries like Brazil or Peru, African countries from Liberia to South Africa) then non-whites are the ones in government level power of their own domain. And they are capable in theory of strategically oppressing people of other shades within their domain (I'd like to think most of them don't because they know what it feels like or maybe they are just smarter/better).

It might never be as large scale because at the moment Western society/culture/milatary power still dominates the rest of the world (though I would argue that there are some "up and coming"s) but but it might be capable of feeling plenty of systematic to the people trapped within that system.

[elz.livejournal.com]

Great post, and very well said. I tend to think that we should all be trying to be the best people we can be at all times - that's a hard thing to do, and I don't live up to my own standards very often, but the important thing is to try, and not to shut our eyes and say "that's not my problem." Why should someone who's suffering from injustice have to convince me that I should care? If I can help other people to be less oppressed or to feel less alone or to be less unhappy, why wouldn't I want to?