to the multishippers out there

[tielan]

I'm slightly curious.

I'm asking the multishippers rather than the OTPers since I think that most of you have a reasonable grasp on sanity and less of a vested interest in the Shep/Weir (or Shep/McKay) vs. Shep/Teyla question.

What's the general response (yours and your f-list's) to 'The Long Goodbye' with regards to the 'ship question'?

I'm curious because I've already found several 'justification for Shep/Weir at expense of Shep/Teyla' posts, and I'm wondering if this attitude is very prevalent in the fandom - I keep meeting people who don't like Shep/Teyla or Teyla. Sometimes the dislike is in canon, sometimes it's in fanon, and sometimes it's both in canon and in fanon.

Mostly, I'm curious about how widespread these opinions are.

I'm also wondering if I want to stick around in a fandom that's going to get into another set of stupid ship wars.

Okay, the way the writers handle relationships (and some storylines) isn't exactly the best thing since sliced bread, but I'm used to it after 5 years of Stargate. Suspension of disbelief, anyone?

Incidentally, if you want to leave your brief on Long Goodbye below, go for it.

Comments

[pixiesio.livejournal.com]

Hon, I haven't been bothering with the fandom in a while beyond chatting with you lot as I find you guys much saner. It's sad to say, but there ya go. I can see either 'ship, and TLG didn't set things overly for me on one side or another. I just really enjoyed the ep for what it was, a butt-kicking good time! I have a feeling if I were still involved in fandom I'd be feeling less so just because the mad ones in fandom (and that's for either 'ship) would suck the fun out of it, so I'm happy to stay out.

I needs me a new Liz icon, methinks...<g>

[snoggingpicard.livejournal.com]

Little sis and I are both multi-shippers for Atlantis with leanings toward one particular pairing -- S/T for me, S/W for her. I haven't seen the ep yet, but I've heard S/W fans explaining away the S/T material and some acknowledging that it was "our" "Conversion". Guess it varies on the person...

I've run into a LOT of S/W fans, and while I do see their friendship and connection, I don't see the potential for romantic development that they seem to. Still, we're mostly pretty respectful and manage some good give-and-take conversations about the whole thing. I kinda think that I've gotten to know TPTB for Stargate over the years, and I feel that it's still to early for them to call a definitive ship. They seem to take things slowly and ambiguously for a long time, and that's why there so much back-and-forth and hints for all of the ships. Do I have a preference? Absolutely, but I can see parts of all of the ships. I just hope that this doesn't go on for so long that when one IS chosen, the rift is irreparable.

My .02

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen TLG yet but I've read some of the posts about it, both pre- and post-viewing, from a variety of sources.

The whole 'shipping wars' concept is one that I've seen played out in a number of arenas but have tried to stayed away from. My favorite fandoms were either so small that to ship anything was a joy (like Space Above and Beyond) or so big (like The Sentinel circa 1996-98) that there felt like there was room for everyone to dip in the pool.

I've never been a hard core OTP shipper because I feel like the human heart and human experience are big enough for just about anything to happen. Which is why when I've come across a pairing (or triple or any other multiple relationship - I'm easy that way) that I haven't considered before and it's written well that I find myself craving more of it. That's not to say that I'll read every author who writes that particular pairing; the real lack of quality S/T is a case in point. And I'm even more resistant if people are really rabid for what seems to be the pairing du jour (e.g. Shep/McKay). At that point I start thinking about how that pairing might work for me if I ever wrote it.

I still don't know why so many people don't like Shep/Teyla or Teyla in particular. You've heard me say this before: I'm baffled when male characters who are just as much blatant stereotypes are lauded as being oh so wonderful and female characters get slapped down hard, especially by other women. It's as though a big chunk of the audience is willing to overlook (and sometimes praise) every possible fault that the male leads have ("it makes them so complex!") and yet the same latitude isn't given to the two main women in the show ("Weir is so evil/lame/not a leader" "Teyla is a skanky ho, look at the way she dresses"). And then when it comes to possible relationship stuff, the claws really come out.

In the end, IMO, it would take strong women to deal with Shep on a daily basis. Both Elizabeth and Teyla have the chops to do it because they're not so taken in by the charm. If that's the case, then let's see how those ships would work out and be creative. Leave justification out of it (and stop thinking that the Stargate writer menfolk will ever get it right) and let the possibilities take over.

Then there's the evil part of me that has Teyla and Elizabeth talking about John and whether or not they should just go ahead and share him...

All other things aside, I'd hate to see you leave the fandom because of supreme wankery.

[miera-c.livejournal.com]

well, you know that I'm not wild about Sheppard/Emmagan personally, but ironically the more I see the rabid Weir/Sheppard people attacking it the more I almost want to defend it, just to be perverse. I may not want to write it but that doesn't mean I don't see the connection between the characters. I really hate the idea of the two ships attacking each other because I don't think it's necessary to harsh on someone else rather than enjoying your interpretation. I'm not encouraged by the behavior on Gateworld and lj by some people.

That said, I think the people stirring up trouble are still in a minority, and more people are not interested in fighting. Hopefully the bad behavior will be discouraged. At any rate, lostcityfound will remain open to everyone! *waves flag of multishipping freedom*

As far as "Long Goodbye" goes (um, general SPOILERS coming up including one specific one)

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There is one moment, a comment by the alien possessing Sheppard, that can be interpreted as being deliberate suggestion of Sheppard/Emmagan, but it's in a context that's open to question about how sincere it is.

Ironically for an episode that is heavily featuring Torri and Joe the actual W/S "shippy" stuff seemed very minimal to me. There's some concern on Sheppard's part for Weir's well being at the beginning, but they're not themselves for the entire rest of the episode. The kiss isn't actually the two of them, and the episode handles it almost exactly like they handled the kiss in "Conversion."

I'm hoping this means the SG writers have learned from their mistakes on SG1 and are going to leave any possible pairings subtextual, at least for now. (I liked the suggestion of an attraction between Jack and Sam but I wanted it to stay a suggestion and they pushed it too much for me on the show.)

[tielan]

See my comment here for details on the Shep/Weir vs. Shep/Teyla aspects of the ep. It pretty much coincides with yours.

[trialia]

I love Teyla to pieces, but that episode was so definitely Shep/Weir. I don't think the interaction between Teyla and Elizabeth gets enough screen time, incidentally...

The Long Goodbye said to me, when everything else falls apart Atlantis will still work, but when it's John and Elizabeth's relationship they're all in trouble. Simply put, anyway.

I've felt a much more sibling "vibe" between John and Teyla from the middle of season 1, and especially post-Conversion, and I hope it continues, because I really like it that way. Sparky and Spanky, as they're being called, suit me just fine as pairings. *grin*

[trialia]

Interesting take, but in my experience the fighting is very much the other way about-- the majority of the John/Teyla 'shippers I have met have been pretty vicious in their contempt for John/Elizabeth and the people who 'ship them. A lot of the J/T writers on FF.net also openly bash Elizabeth, and that makes me even less inclined to be friendly as she's my favourite character. I've caught some nasty flak over my inclinations with SGA, but I don't go out to pick fights or say bad things about people who 'ship other pairings in any of my posts. I would never. But I've seen it happen.

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

I don't know; I get the feeling from watching the episode they pretty much tried to put the kibosh on both ships.

[snoggingpicard.livejournal.com]

I'm so sorry you've had such a bad experience with other shippers. It really does take the fun out of it when you get picked on for something so trivial. I hang out on Gateworld a lot, and the S/T thread there has become a friendly place to be because me and the posse took over and are insisting on an open-arms policy during posting. Character bashing is just...ew. And picking on shippers from the "other camp" is just as stupid. You come to me next time someone gives you crap -- I'll give 'em a verbal thrashing for ya! ;)

[trialia]

Thanks! *hugs you* It's nice to find someone who 'ships differently with the same calm view of it all. I've been on the fence re. House/Cameron and House/Cuddy (different show, obv.) since the beginning, and why people give me stick for that I don't know.

Funnily enough, I dabble in Weir/Teyla, too, so maybe that's why I'm fairly open-minded as regards John/Teyla-- I like both characters. I can't see a great deal of sexual tension between John and Teyla, but I might write fluff or h/c around the pairing. It's the animosity of the S/T 'shippers I've met that has most put me off, in actual fact. Perhaps I'll wander to Gateworld at some point.

[snoggingpicard.livejournal.com]

::hugs back:: Having fun and just enjoying the show is way more important than getting uptight about a ship. We easy-going types rock! :D My little sis watches "House" as well and is one the fence as far as ships for that show goes, so I know the feeling. I completely understand from first-hand experience how much "not-fun" it is to get attacked for ship preference. If you ever stop in at GW, be sure to visit us S/T folks. My name is the same there, and I'll show you around the place and make sure you're treated nicely. ;) We're kind of on a mission to erase some of the bad reputation our ship (and its supporters) have gotten -- we now give cookies and hot chocolate to our visitors, so no need to be shy! Heehee!

[tielan]

when it's John and Elizabeth's relationship they're all in trouble

I didn't see it being 'John' and 'Elizabeth' - it was two people who looked like John and Liz but very clearly weren't.

IIRC, none of the issues between Phoebus-Liz and Thalen-John were relationship-oriented: the chiefest concern from the get-go was that two aliens had possession of the two highest leaders in the city - complete with weapons experience and authority codes.

[tielan]

That's an interesting opinion - and one I haven't yet seen explained. Do you mind elaborating why you feel that way?

Re: My .02

[tielan]

If that's the case, then let's see how those ships would work out and be creative. Leave justification out of it

You've got a good point there. I know that I'm going to ship John/Teyla (and Teyla/Lorne and Liz/Ronon) fanonically no matter what happens in the show. I won't ignore anything else that happens, but neither am I going to kick a hissy fit.

I guess I'm just seeing shades of the Harry Potter fandom: R/Hr vs. H/Hr. I think that either side has possibilities, I just prefer R/Hr - which I was fortunate to have as canon. On the other hand, I don't mind the H/Hr fans having their fanfic - it's all fun and games until someone starts up a ship war.

And the other thing that gives me pause is that a lot of the Shep/Weir shippers in SGA were Sam/Jack from SG1 - they're not used to having anything but their OTP, and people get a mite bitchy when they're used to having their way and they don't get it.

Then there's the evil part of me that has Teyla and Elizabeth talking about John and whether or not they should just go ahead and share him...

They'd probably skip the sharing and just go for each other!

[tielan]

I just really enjoyed the ep for what it was, a butt-kicking good time!

Truly told? Me too!

Except I keep coming across all this "X/Y is so unrealistic! There's nothing between them!"

I mean, I see where the Shep/Weir fen are coming from, I just don't like the pairing. (Cue the other day's discussion.)

Anyway, it's interesting that you weren't swayed (being mostly on the fence), the Shep/Teylas are convinced it was Shep/Teyla, the Shep/Weirers are convinced it was Shep/Weir, and the slashers and no-romos are convinced it put a stop to both ships right there and then.

Ain't fandom grand?

[tielan]

I just hope that this doesn't go on for so long that when one IS chosen, the rift is irreparable.

And this is exactly what I'm afraid of, and wish to get out of the fandom before the meow-boom.

Letter to Joe Mallozzi:
Dear Joe,

I am a fan who is presently enjoying the show, but wishes to get the hell out before you guys decide to do one pairing over another (and you will, because this is Stargate and I've been watching it since SG1 Season 4) and the fandom implodes.

Please indicate what is going to happen soonest.
love,
A Stargate Atlantis Fan.

[doxymom.livejournal.com]

I'm actually a multi-shipper who leans slightly more toward ST. I also tend to be pretty mellow, I think.

I think TLG was vague ship-wise. Funny thing is, in Conversion, to me there seemed to be a lot of SW and an ST kiss, and in TLG there was an SW kiss and some ST hints. I think the writers are playing with our minds, purposely trying to stir up all the shippers--even the McSheps. I saw things that could be interpreted as McShep hints as well. And I saw things that could be interpreted as McWeir or Weir/Caldwell too!

The writers are just playing us. I don't think they've really decided on a ship and I'm not confident they could write one well. So, I'm on the fence about whether I want them to ever pick a canon ship. I have the feeling it's already too late for them for TPTB to choose and ship and not piss off a lot of people. They should have had the cajones to choose at the beginning.

Personally, I read pretty much anything, except the more graphic m/m slash. And...okay, I've been reluctant to admit this...I'd love to see John with a female who isn't on the show yet. She hasn't been written yet, but I'd love to see him with someone he has more natural chemistry with--Crichton/Aeryn from Farscape-type chemistry. The kind that leaps off the screen and leaves little doubt in anyone's mind that the couple works. The kind that makes people wonder if the actors might also be attracted because the chemistry is so darned good.

Of course, the two shows are different in basic premise so that'll never happen. (Farscape was supposedly about the J/A relationship, and SGA is about the sci fi and team.)

Anyone read any John/Cadman fics? I think they'd be good together too.

Whoever anyone else ships, I don't mind. It's not worth getting worked up over.

I've met rabid/mean SWers and STers. There are some in every ship and in the non-shippers too. Shoot, they're in every fandom and no one group has a monopoly on them. I've decided to just ignore them because I've let them sour me on fandoms before and it's not worth giving up a show (or ship, or fics) I like because of some jerk who's having a bad day.

I like all the characters, some more than others, but I like them all.

Just my 3 cents. :-)

[pixiesio.livejournal.com]

LOL! It is rather...interesting...;)

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

Well, the arguments go both ways. There's John's obvious reluctance to be Thelan's, er, container (my personal opinion is that John really hates being out of control, but he does object vocally to the possibility of physicality with Weir/Phoebus). Then you have the obvious discomfort and embarrassment you have between them after their hitchhikers are gone.

On the other hand, you have Thelan's "He cares about you more than you know!" Now, on the surface, this seems fairly explicit. But when you look at Teyla's reaction... This is where her resolve to shoot John/Thelan actually firms. If you wanted one really good sign he wasn't John, that line is it. Then you have Phoebus herself in this situation. When Thelan uses John's knowledge with people, he doesn't use it very effectively. Even Ronon, is only partially taken in by this. Phoebus, on the other hand, uses Elizabeth's knowledge fully and effectively. So, the fact that Elizabeth believes that Teyla will shoot John if necessary, kill him, is significant.

I have problems even comparing Conversion and The Long Goodbye, especially when talking about that kiss. It's only comparable if you cast Elizabeth as Sheppard and even then, that's a stretch. In one, John has limited control -- though he's losing it -- and in the other, Elizabeth has no control whatsoever. These are not comparable situations. But that's neither here nor there.

[tielan]

Interesting.

I'm in agreement with your first statement: John doesn't show any desire to be possessed by an alien who's allegedly the hubby of the alien possessing Liz, and I also saw the final scene as embarassment.

However, I have to ask you to qualify further.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Is it your opinion that the confession of John's feelings for Teyla is invalid because it was made by Thalen, not John; or that the assumption that Teyla has feelings for John is invalid because she is willing to kill him? Or possibly both.

But when you look at Teyla's reaction... This is where her resolve to shoot John/Thelan actually firms.

Rewatching that section of the ep, Teyla's reaction to the declaration 'cares about you' is once again to appeal to Phoebus if this is something she must do - she looks for an out. (To me, this is explicable in both romantic and platonic circumstances: John is a team-mate and trusted friend, she wouldn't want to shoot him in any situation.)

Teyla prepares to shoot Thalen after Phoebus reiterates her alternative: venting the halon into the personnel quarters and after Caldwell tells Teyla that Phoebus has the capability to do as she threatens and that he will leave the decision up to Teyla.

The only thing Thalen says when Teyla points the weapon at him is "Sheppard doesn't believe you'll do it." To which Teyla responds by prepping the gun (safety catch?) and saying, "Forgive me, John."

That's the scene as it's played out. So I'd have to disagree that Teyla is willing to kill John because of the confession. (And with what I'm assuming is your point - that because she is willing to kill John, she doesn't care for him.)

[skyebanshee.livejournal.com]

I'm not the most philosophical, so forgive the lack of eloquence. I'm a S/T, for my own reasons. I think the Weir and Sheppard friendship is great, and I like their scenes together, and I really like Elizabeth as a character. It was refreshing to she her in a new role and to see her kicking serious arse. I'm impressed with Teyla's characterization overall in the series, her appeal to Phoebus and her almost final decision about Thalan/Sheppard highlights two of her most important traits - her negotiation skills and the responsibilities of a leader (or so I figure).

I think I was in the middle of a ship war years and years ago and I realized then the pointlessness of it. Having an OTP Is fine, but when you let it colour your view of a particular character just because he/she is a rival for said OTP, it's a diservice to the show as a whole. Elizabeth and Teyla have the potential to be wonderful characters in their own right, and have so much to offer to the show, both with their similarities and their differences. Why not just let them?

/rambling

[azarsuerte.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen the episode yet, but from everything I've read (including the Shep/Weir justification posts, most of which just made me laugh and I *am* a S/W 'shipper), I think Shep/Teyla CLEARLY comes out the winner.

The kiss will be good for vidding, but it means absolutely NOTHING for the relationship as far as canon goes. What amazes me is that anyone should be surprised by this--the PTB stated BEFORE the first episode that S/T was going to be the canon pairing, and they're not exactly known for changing their minds!

[azarsuerte.livejournal.com]

Oh, and to clarify...since your query was directed specifically to multishippers, I also 'ship McKay/Weir although moments for that have been few and far between, lately. :-/

[tielan]

Actually, the request for the opinions of 'multishippers only' was more to avoid the hordes of screaming Shep/Weir shippers telling me that 'ZOMG! How can you not believe that it was John and Elizabeth in Thalen and Phoebus acting out their true feelings for each other!!!!'

And I used to like McKay/Weir, but I think I prefer them as friends with occasional 'I'd like to screw your brains out' urges that pass by very fast. *g*