a note on Teyla's parentage

[tielan]

For a retconning that doesn't have to be a retcon if people think outside the box...

spoilers for S5: Search And Rescue!

Upon meeting the Atlantis expedition, Teyla introduces herself as "Teyla, daughter of Tegan".

However, we are never told which parent Tegan is.

Teyla's father is repeatedly mentioned, but he is never referred to by his name. No-one - not Charin, not Halling, not Teyla herself - says "Tegan, father of Teyla".

So, yes, it is entirely possible that Teyla's father's name is Torran, and her mother's name is Tegan. It is entirely possible that, while her father was the leader of the Athosians, and Teyla is his daughter, the Athosians count their generations through the mother. Or, it's possible that a child counts her or his bloodline through the parent of the same sex.

For a culture where a family unit as the western world understands it may not exist (a community culture that lives in tents and apparently holds work in common - the tava planting mentioned in Return I?) it may be easier to count generations through the mother rather than the father - especially if the father is the man who raises the child, not necessarily the sire.

Not every culture in the Stargate universe need be as patriarchal as Earth.

Regarding whether it was intentional or a mistake: knowing TPTB, it was probably a mistake. However, they're lucky that, amidst all the mentions of Teyla's father, no-one ever named him.

I believe we can take it as canon now that Torran is the father of Teyla, and Tegan is the mother of Teyla.

Feel free to refer anyone and everyone to this post, because I just know it's going to come up again.

Comments

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

Actually, that would be an awesome way to think about it because it opens up so many avenues to explore in regards to the Athosians and other Pegasus cultures.

It's not uncommon for women to be close to their fathers; I was. Not that my mother wasn't an influence but there were things that I learned from my father that I feel resonate with me now.

One thing: you could look at Teyla as having spent periods of apprenticeship (for lack of a better term) with significant people in her life. Trading skills with her father, leadership skills with her mother and Charin acting as another adult mentor. All of which would work in a society that has no guarantees that your parents or other family members will always be with you.

What is probably TPTB's mistake could be a win for us as fans.

[tielan]

I always figured that the uncertainty of people being there always makes the communal state of the Athosians a very practical situation. Witness the group breakfast that John and Sumner interrupted that first morning on Athos.

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

excellent point.

and it reminded me of a saying from another culture here on Earth: "I hope that my wife's brother raises my children as well as I raise my sister's children." ...or something to that effect.

[tielan]

I read a fictional series that featured a very interesting matrilinear society.

The men are the leaders, but their heir cannot be from their own sons, but must be chosen from their sisters' sons. It was an interesting balancing of the traditional patriarchal vs. matriarchal culture.

[raksha38.livejournal.com]

For a culture where a family unit as the western world understands it may not exist

I think it's safe to say that the family unit as the western world understands it is pretty much guaranteed not to exist for a great many people in Pegasus, what with all the cullings. You'd end up with a pretty disfunctional society if you insisted upon clinging to the husband-wife-children = basic-unit-of-society model, what with any individual or combination of individuals getting eaten without notice.


And about the premier: I finally broke down and went to watch it on YouTube. While I was watching part 3 (of 5), they took the rest down for copyright violation! Ack! Only getting to see half of it was worse than not getting to see it at all! *sigh* Is it July yet?

[tielan]

Is it July yet?

Way too soon for my state of mind! *hugs*

[darkrosetiger.livejournal.com]

Even knowing it was almost certainly a continuity gap by the people who transferred Bates from the Marines to the Air Force, I bounced when I heard that, because it fits in with my personal canon for Teyla and Athosian culture.

[tielan]

Hee! It's always nice when something happens to assist your person canon.

[myeverlovinmind.livejournal.com]

When I heard this little tidbit, my first thought was that perhaps the parental lines might be traced for girls matrilinearly (is that a word?) and for boys patrilinearly.(also a word?) Well you know what I mean. Through history, there have been a number of cultures that trace family lines that way.

[tielan]

Yes, I know what you mean.

I did wonder about that in my initial reaciton post: whether Torran would be 'Torran son of Teyla' or 'Torran son of Kanaan'.

[chyti.livejournal.com]

i have no problem being of cuban heritage we use both mother and father surname. the mother's lineage is just as important as the father and i can understand in the pegasus galaxy putting the stress on both parents.

it takes a village to raise a child. this concept must run rampant throught pegasus with all the cullings.

[tielan]

it takes a village to raise a child. this concept must run rampant throught pegasus with all the cullings.

One would think so in Pegasus.

[darsynia.livejournal.com]

Hope you don't mind my popping in with a bit of c&p from another discussion about this, but in case I'm tl;dr--I agree with you. Also, I am silly and like 'Tagaan' better so I use that, but it really doesn't matter, heh.

Whether or not the writers screwed up, Teyla doesn't say which it is. And the way she introduces herself as 'Daughter of Tagaan' is ceremonial, and not very much like the way she speaks of her father at all. It seems to me that if we're looking for consistency, that should be a factor. Perhaps they're like the Genii, in that they used to have a much more rich society and it's softened and altered over the years so that Halling can lead them without it being totally against their ways.

IMO, Teyla's mother was regal and untouchable and to be respected, but her father and Charin were the ones that treated her like their child. When introducing yourself as a leader of your people to newcomers, you don't convey 'Hey, so, I'm the daughter of this person whose name clearly means something to me, but, I'm not so much thinking of this person with as much love and respect as I feel for the father I lost along the way.'

I look at it two ways:

1) The writers might be, as some suggest, not so strong with their own canon. We can ask and receive a definitive answer about this (I asked at Joe M's blog yesterday, actually) and find out one way or another, or we can decide they simply screwed up and behave accordingly (ie. lose respect for them, not care in the slightest, defend them, whatever).

2) In the context of the show. Because, here's the thing. WHETHER OR NOT the writers screwed up, both names are canon now. So, for accurate fic writing and peace of mind, we've got to reconcile it anyway. We can either handwave it in fic or come up with a logical, rational explanation and personally I like the latter a lot more than the former. I hate handwaving, and this really does strike me as quite the logical explanation for the name discrepancy, whether or not it's a fuckup.

[tielan]

My main problem with "Tegaan" is that the proununciation isn't quite right for it. "Kanaan" has the emphasis on the double vowel sound, while the way Teyla pronounces "Tegan" sounds more like "TAY-gan" - at least, in my accent of English, it does!

Another alternative to Teyla's apparent distance from her mother is that her mother died while Teyla was too young to remember her.

I hate handwaving, and this really does strike me as quite the logical explanation for the name discrepancy, whether or not it's a fuckup.

Exactly my thoughts.

Another interesting angle is that Tegan is not an actual parent but a lineage link. Some cultures don't count the parent so much as the lineage. "Teyla, daughter of Tegan" might very well be Athosian code for "Teyla, of Tegan's line".

[patk.livejournal.com]

Which brings me to the question... in which ep was it explicitely mentioned that her *father* was the leader of the Athosians? *Was* it explicitely mentioned?

[patk.livejournal.com]

I guess after each culling through the generations there were children born who had to grow up without their biological father. Mom survived - otherwise the child wouldn't have been borne after the culling - to raise the child on her own or even with a stepfather.

So it makes a certain amount of sense to assume that the Athosians over the generations might have developed the cultural habit of defining their lineage through the mother, simply because it was sure that the child was hers while the dad - *if* there was one - was perhaps often not the biological father.

Just an idea. :-)

[tielan]

It makes a lot of sense - and opens up all kinds of opportunities for the style of society that the Athosians (and other Pegasus cultures) have developed over the years.

[briar_pipe]

In terms of family groups, we actually have canon evidence for what you suggest. In "Letters from Pegasus", the man Teyla goes to meet (and later tries to rescue) has a crowd of people of various ages around him, some of them referred to specifically as refugees from other cullings. In "Childhood's End", we learn that children on M7G-677 are typically separated from at least one parent and appear to live in a fully communal, village-based society. I suspect there are other cases I'm not recalling at the moment.

I'd honestly rather work with your answer than try to make excuses for a writing team that publicly admits it has no character bibles. I mean, it's a wonder something like this is only just happening now, instead of years ago.

[tielan]

Most of the Pegasus societies seem to have a strong communal aspect - which is understandable in the face of the Wraith. There'd be less focus on the smaller units and greater on the whole body of people.

Of course, TPTB aren't going to actually formulate any of this. And I heard about the lack of character guides. Which probably goes a long way to explain why they're not all that consistent as far as characterisation goes. :/

Sometimes it seems like Stargate is a very haphazardly-written show.

[missyvortexdv.livejournal.com]

Not seen the ep yet, but was interested as well, yay, Teyla meta and just because it needs saying - you are awesome. That is all. :D

[tielan]

*smooches*

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

Actually, that would be an awesome way to think about it because it opens up so many avenues to explore in regards to the Athosians and other Pegasus cultures.

It's not uncommon for women to be close to their fathers; I was. Not that my mother wasn't an influence but there were things that I learned from my father that I feel resonate with me now.

One thing: you could look at Teyla as having spent periods of apprenticeship (for lack of a better term) with significant people in her life. Trading skills with her father, leadership skills with her mother and Charin acting as another adult mentor. All of which would work in a society that has no guarantees that your parents or other family members will always be with you.

What is probably TPTB's mistake could be a win for us as fans.

[tielan]

I always figured that the uncertainty of people being there always makes the communal state of the Athosians a very practical situation. Witness the group breakfast that John and Sumner interrupted that first morning on Athos.

[rodlox.livejournal.com]

excellent point.

and it reminded me of a saying from another culture here on Earth: "I hope that my wife's brother raises my children as well as I raise my sister's children." ...or something to that effect.

[tielan]

I read a fictional series that featured a very interesting matrilinear society.

The men are the leaders, but their heir cannot be from their own sons, but must be chosen from their sisters' sons. It was an interesting balancing of the traditional patriarchal vs. matriarchal culture.

[raksha38.livejournal.com]

For a culture where a family unit as the western world understands it may not exist

I think it's safe to say that the family unit as the western world understands it is pretty much guaranteed not to exist for a great many people in Pegasus, what with all the cullings. You'd end up with a pretty disfunctional society if you insisted upon clinging to the husband-wife-children = basic-unit-of-society model, what with any individual or combination of individuals getting eaten without notice.


And about the premier: I finally broke down and went to watch it on YouTube. While I was watching part 3 (of 5), they took the rest down for copyright violation! Ack! Only getting to see half of it was worse than not getting to see it at all! *sigh* Is it July yet?

[tielan]

Is it July yet?

Way too soon for my state of mind! *hugs*

[darkrosetiger.livejournal.com]

Even knowing it was almost certainly a continuity gap by the people who transferred Bates from the Marines to the Air Force, I bounced when I heard that, because it fits in with my personal canon for Teyla and Athosian culture.

[tielan]

Hee! It's always nice when something happens to assist your person canon.

[myeverlovinmind.livejournal.com]

When I heard this little tidbit, my first thought was that perhaps the parental lines might be traced for girls matrilinearly (is that a word?) and for boys patrilinearly.(also a word?) Well you know what I mean. Through history, there have been a number of cultures that trace family lines that way.

[tielan]

Yes, I know what you mean.

I did wonder about that in my initial reaciton post: whether Torran would be 'Torran son of Teyla' or 'Torran son of Kanaan'.

[chyti.livejournal.com]

i have no problem being of cuban heritage we use both mother and father surname. the mother's lineage is just as important as the father and i can understand in the pegasus galaxy putting the stress on both parents.

it takes a village to raise a child. this concept must run rampant throught pegasus with all the cullings.

[tielan]

it takes a village to raise a child. this concept must run rampant throught pegasus with all the cullings.

One would think so in Pegasus.

[darsynia.livejournal.com]

Hope you don't mind my popping in with a bit of c&p from another discussion about this, but in case I'm tl;dr--I agree with you. Also, I am silly and like 'Tagaan' better so I use that, but it really doesn't matter, heh.

Whether or not the writers screwed up, Teyla doesn't say which it is. And the way she introduces herself as 'Daughter of Tagaan' is ceremonial, and not very much like the way she speaks of her father at all. It seems to me that if we're looking for consistency, that should be a factor. Perhaps they're like the Genii, in that they used to have a much more rich society and it's softened and altered over the years so that Halling can lead them without it being totally against their ways.

IMO, Teyla's mother was regal and untouchable and to be respected, but her father and Charin were the ones that treated her like their child. When introducing yourself as a leader of your people to newcomers, you don't convey 'Hey, so, I'm the daughter of this person whose name clearly means something to me, but, I'm not so much thinking of this person with as much love and respect as I feel for the father I lost along the way.'

I look at it two ways:

1) The writers might be, as some suggest, not so strong with their own canon. We can ask and receive a definitive answer about this (I asked at Joe M's blog yesterday, actually) and find out one way or another, or we can decide they simply screwed up and behave accordingly (ie. lose respect for them, not care in the slightest, defend them, whatever).

2) In the context of the show. Because, here's the thing. WHETHER OR NOT the writers screwed up, both names are canon now. So, for accurate fic writing and peace of mind, we've got to reconcile it anyway. We can either handwave it in fic or come up with a logical, rational explanation and personally I like the latter a lot more than the former. I hate handwaving, and this really does strike me as quite the logical explanation for the name discrepancy, whether or not it's a fuckup.

[tielan]

My main problem with "Tegaan" is that the proununciation isn't quite right for it. "Kanaan" has the emphasis on the double vowel sound, while the way Teyla pronounces "Tegan" sounds more like "TAY-gan" - at least, in my accent of English, it does!

Another alternative to Teyla's apparent distance from her mother is that her mother died while Teyla was too young to remember her.

I hate handwaving, and this really does strike me as quite the logical explanation for the name discrepancy, whether or not it's a fuckup.

Exactly my thoughts.

Another interesting angle is that Tegan is not an actual parent but a lineage link. Some cultures don't count the parent so much as the lineage. "Teyla, daughter of Tegan" might very well be Athosian code for "Teyla, of Tegan's line".

[patk.livejournal.com]

Which brings me to the question... in which ep was it explicitely mentioned that her *father* was the leader of the Athosians? *Was* it explicitely mentioned?

[patk.livejournal.com]

I guess after each culling through the generations there were children born who had to grow up without their biological father. Mom survived - otherwise the child wouldn't have been borne after the culling - to raise the child on her own or even with a stepfather.

So it makes a certain amount of sense to assume that the Athosians over the generations might have developed the cultural habit of defining their lineage through the mother, simply because it was sure that the child was hers while the dad - *if* there was one - was perhaps often not the biological father.

Just an idea. :-)

[tielan]

It makes a lot of sense - and opens up all kinds of opportunities for the style of society that the Athosians (and other Pegasus cultures) have developed over the years.

[briar_pipe]

In terms of family groups, we actually have canon evidence for what you suggest. In "Letters from Pegasus", the man Teyla goes to meet (and later tries to rescue) has a crowd of people of various ages around him, some of them referred to specifically as refugees from other cullings. In "Childhood's End", we learn that children on M7G-677 are typically separated from at least one parent and appear to live in a fully communal, village-based society. I suspect there are other cases I'm not recalling at the moment.

I'd honestly rather work with your answer than try to make excuses for a writing team that publicly admits it has no character bibles. I mean, it's a wonder something like this is only just happening now, instead of years ago.

[tielan]

Most of the Pegasus societies seem to have a strong communal aspect - which is understandable in the face of the Wraith. There'd be less focus on the smaller units and greater on the whole body of people.

Of course, TPTB aren't going to actually formulate any of this. And I heard about the lack of character guides. Which probably goes a long way to explain why they're not all that consistent as far as characterisation goes. :/

Sometimes it seems like Stargate is a very haphazardly-written show.

[missyvortexdv.livejournal.com]

Not seen the ep yet, but was interested as well, yay, Teyla meta and just because it needs saying - you are awesome. That is all. :D

[tielan]

*smooches*

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

I agree with all points except with the part about taking it as canon.

We can take whatever we want as canon, because both opportunities have been presented.

In "Duet", Rodney's name is CLEARLY "Rodney Ingram McKay". In "McKay and Mrs. Miller", it suddenly becomes "Meredith Rodney McKay".

You can talk anthropology all you want, and you'll be right (and I've done it too), but that does not excuse lazy writing.

Perhaps we should send them a flow chart? :)

[tielan]

Actually, there is no "clearly" about Teyla's father's name being Tagan. Just because we've only heard about one parent from Teyla doesn't mean the named parent has to be her father. The fans have assumed that Tagan is her father's name, but it has never been explicitly said. Ergo, it's fanon, not canon.

The question of who Tagan is has never been answered in canon. It might be her mother, it might be her lineage in much the same manner of "Jesus, called Christ, son of David".

I'm sure that it was lazy writing on the part of TPTB, but that doesn't mean that it isn't canon.

The Rodney Ingram vs. Meredith Rodney question is a duality - again, doubtless brought on by lazy writing; this isn't. Her father's name is Torran, and Teyla is a "daughter of Tagan" - whatever that means.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

I agree with all points except with the part about taking it as canon.

We can take whatever we want as canon, because both opportunities have been presented.

In "Duet", Rodney's name is CLEARLY "Rodney Ingram McKay". In "McKay and Mrs. Miller", it suddenly becomes "Meredith Rodney McKay".

You can talk anthropology all you want, and you'll be right (and I've done it too), but that does not excuse lazy writing.

Perhaps we should send them a flow chart? :)

[tielan]

Actually, there is no "clearly" about Teyla's father's name being Tagan. Just because we've only heard about one parent from Teyla doesn't mean the named parent has to be her father. The fans have assumed that Tagan is her father's name, but it has never been explicitly said. Ergo, it's fanon, not canon.

The question of who Tagan is has never been answered in canon. It might be her mother, it might be her lineage in much the same manner of "Jesus, called Christ, son of David".

I'm sure that it was lazy writing on the part of TPTB, but that doesn't mean that it isn't canon.

The Rodney Ingram vs. Meredith Rodney question is a duality - again, doubtless brought on by lazy writing; this isn't. Her father's name is Torran, and Teyla is a "daughter of Tagan" - whatever that means.