social pressures?

[tielan]

Pondering popularity and the anti-popular.

Maybe there isn't an explicit blackball list in fandom, but there are certainly social pressures involved in the give-and-take of fandom: people with whom it is implicitly bad ton to be seen complimenting or talking to if you've got a certain status or are into certain characters or pairings, or even want to stay on the good side of certain BNFs after they've had stoushes with no-name fans.

It's not unique to any fandom; it's just the way people (and women especially) tend to play social politics.

Comments

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

You also can't forgot those who don't take sides and refuse to play the game and how that usually pisses off one or both parties royally.

Though I'd have to disagree on the women especially part as I know many men who are very black and white when it comes to who's on their side and how it's going to play out. I think it has more to do with who's in the privileged position and in fandom, you definitely have BNFs there.

[tielan]

Yes, the refusal to choose a side (and a person) happens sometimes, too.

It's true that men are also black-and-white when it comes to "taking sides", but my experience is that women are more likely to twist the knife, not just at the point of separation, but two, three years later, too.

Any friendship severances I had with guys tended to be clean. Severances with women, on the other hand, tend to be bitter - several years later, they're still willing to bitch to third parties.

I guess what it puts me in mind of is ye olde royal courts, where the courtiers scrambled for attention and acknowledgement from those who were in favour. It's all a big dance, and social standing is important by who you talk to, who you friend, who has you friended, who talks to you...

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

More like human social dynamics, really. Anytime you get a group of people (an office, a club, a church, a dorm floor, a small town) the cliquishness and cabal-forming starts to happen. Sometimes you get lucky and find a group of people who don't go in for that (I think it's only really possible with small groups, though), and you can always seek out friends who don't care about that or are willing to cross cabal lines, but it's pretty much inevitable when groups form. I used to be in small press comics, and recently I've been dipping my toe in those social waters again, and, wow, I'd forgotten what a total snakepit it is.

I expect it's even worse in groups of creative people than in the general population, because you have ego issues *and* insecurity to deal with at the same time ... I'm certainly not immune to either one of those.

[tielan]

I did say 'people' social dynamics; I've just found it's more noticeable in women than in men.

I think it helps to be out on the edge of something, rather than in the centre of things, too. The barriers between groups are more flexible the further out from the centres of power you are.

Good point about creative people vs. the general population, too.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I did say 'people' social dynamics; I've just found it's more noticeable in women than in men.

Well, yeah ... I guess my point was, you'd said "It's not unique to any fandom", and I'd take that a step farther and say it's not unique to any group of people. And it doesn't matter if people are invested in something important (political activism) or something relatively unimportant (fandom, sports teams) -- the same cliquishness still exists. If we don't have celebrities, we create them, with all that goes along with it.

And it's not totally arbitrary, either. I mean, in fandom specifically, there might not be a formula for what causes one person to make the leap into BNF-dom (in fact, there's not really any good definition of what constitutes *being* a BNF, either), but it's definitely rooted in skill and hard work -- BNFs might not be the only good writers working in their fandoms (in fact, usually aren't), but they are almost invariably skillful, prolific writers who also actively participate in the social life of the fandom. One thing that strikes me about the way that people relate to fame and celebrity is that there's a pervasive sense of "they didn't earn it" or "they don't deserve it" (note: not accusing you of this, just making a general observation) and there is certainly some truth to that -- how just is it that a pro basketball player's salary is about 100 times that of a teacher or police officer? -- but it's also true that people who achieve celebrity status in their field usually do it by doing *something* better than everyone around them -- whether that "something" is performing the skill at hand, or branding themselves in a distinctive way, or simply being more skillful/lucky at gauging what is going to make a reader's id go "poing!"

In any case, I think most BNFs are as stunned as anyone else at the cult of celebrity that grows up around them -- at least, the few people I know personally who could be termed "BNF" are just as kind and humble as any lower-echelon fan, and not at all comfortable with being placed on a pedestal. I imagine that your average celebrity feels likewise.

[tielan]

Unique, no.

but they are almost invariably skillful, prolific writers who also actively participate in the social life of the fandom

I'd question the 'skillful', actually. Certainly, there are fans who are very skilled writers/artists/creators, but I can think of some who are fairly mediocre in the overall schema of fandom, but who develop a "cult of celebrity" around them or hitch their cart to the right horse at the right time. I don't think picking the right horse at the right time is a skill so much as luck - unless they can do it repeatedly and in areas other than fandom.

You're right, though: some popularity is well-earned.

I think most BNFs are as stunned as anyone else at the cult of celebrity that grows up around them

Initially surprised, yes; but I've also seen fandom BNFs - be they ever so humble and sociable among their friends - use their influence as the thin edge of wedge politics.

It doesn't happen in all cases, but it does happen in some. It may not happen with any of the BNFs you personally know, but I have seen it happen.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I think we've all seen so-called BNFs behaving badly. What I think is interesting about a lot of those brouhahas is how the behavior of the anti-BNF factions can get at least as unpleasant as that of the BNFs. I think the whole Cassandra Claire (http://wiki.fandomwank.com/index.php/Cassie_Claire) mess in HP fandom illustrated that in a major way -- it leaps to mind because I was in the fandom at the time, so I got a ringside seat for the implosion. Yes, she plagiarized and abused her BNF status to get goodies for herself, which is wrong, and she was rightly castigated for it. But at the same time, there was a huge backlash of people who were tearing her apart for things that would have flown under the radar a couple of years previously. Everything she did came under intense scrutiny, including her writing, which was getting raked over the coals in pretty much every way, where it had been garnering good reviews back when she was a no-name fan. It's doubly interesting to me because the "summary" version that I'm seeing bandied about these days does not quite tally with what I was observing at the time. And I don't have a horse in that race -- I don't know any of the people involved, in any way other than the peripheral fannish way you "know" people by reading their fic and meta.

It's a weird double-edged sword, because BNFs have more than the usual amount of influence in the fandom, and may use (or abuse) it, but they also come under a kind of scrutiny and criticism that we usually don't turn on our fellow fen. The bar is set a lot higher for BNFs, just like we set the bar higher for "famous" books than for relative unknowns.

Anyway, all of that goes back to what you were saying about unpleasant social behavior earlier -- I think there are people in fandom who gravitate towards BNFs because of the cult of celebrity surrounding them, and there are *also* people in fandom who revel in their rebel status and develop their own little iconoclastic cult-of-celebrity by criticizing BNFs. Obviously, I'm not pointing fingers at you here; I don't think your post was that at all. In fact, I'm not sure if SGA fandom is really big enough to support that kind of behavior in any major way, like HP fandom is. In fact, I think your use of the term anti-popular at the start of your post is a good one for that mentality, because I think that's *exactly* what people were doing during the Cassandra Claire thing: stressing that they weren't popular enough to be in her clique and, by doing so, courting a sort of weird anti-celebrity celebrity following.

[tielan]

The bar is set a lot higher for BNFs

*wry*

With great power comes great accountability?

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

You also can't forgot those who don't take sides and refuse to play the game and how that usually pisses off one or both parties royally.

Though I'd have to disagree on the women especially part as I know many men who are very black and white when it comes to who's on their side and how it's going to play out. I think it has more to do with who's in the privileged position and in fandom, you definitely have BNFs there.

[tielan]

Yes, the refusal to choose a side (and a person) happens sometimes, too.

It's true that men are also black-and-white when it comes to "taking sides", but my experience is that women are more likely to twist the knife, not just at the point of separation, but two, three years later, too.

Any friendship severances I had with guys tended to be clean. Severances with women, on the other hand, tend to be bitter - several years later, they're still willing to bitch to third parties.

I guess what it puts me in mind of is ye olde royal courts, where the courtiers scrambled for attention and acknowledgement from those who were in favour. It's all a big dance, and social standing is important by who you talk to, who you friend, who has you friended, who talks to you...

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

More like human social dynamics, really. Anytime you get a group of people (an office, a club, a church, a dorm floor, a small town) the cliquishness and cabal-forming starts to happen. Sometimes you get lucky and find a group of people who don't go in for that (I think it's only really possible with small groups, though), and you can always seek out friends who don't care about that or are willing to cross cabal lines, but it's pretty much inevitable when groups form. I used to be in small press comics, and recently I've been dipping my toe in those social waters again, and, wow, I'd forgotten what a total snakepit it is.

I expect it's even worse in groups of creative people than in the general population, because you have ego issues *and* insecurity to deal with at the same time ... I'm certainly not immune to either one of those.

[tielan]

I did say 'people' social dynamics; I've just found it's more noticeable in women than in men.

I think it helps to be out on the edge of something, rather than in the centre of things, too. The barriers between groups are more flexible the further out from the centres of power you are.

Good point about creative people vs. the general population, too.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I did say 'people' social dynamics; I've just found it's more noticeable in women than in men.

Well, yeah ... I guess my point was, you'd said "It's not unique to any fandom", and I'd take that a step farther and say it's not unique to any group of people. And it doesn't matter if people are invested in something important (political activism) or something relatively unimportant (fandom, sports teams) -- the same cliquishness still exists. If we don't have celebrities, we create them, with all that goes along with it.

And it's not totally arbitrary, either. I mean, in fandom specifically, there might not be a formula for what causes one person to make the leap into BNF-dom (in fact, there's not really any good definition of what constitutes *being* a BNF, either), but it's definitely rooted in skill and hard work -- BNFs might not be the only good writers working in their fandoms (in fact, usually aren't), but they are almost invariably skillful, prolific writers who also actively participate in the social life of the fandom. One thing that strikes me about the way that people relate to fame and celebrity is that there's a pervasive sense of "they didn't earn it" or "they don't deserve it" (note: not accusing you of this, just making a general observation) and there is certainly some truth to that -- how just is it that a pro basketball player's salary is about 100 times that of a teacher or police officer? -- but it's also true that people who achieve celebrity status in their field usually do it by doing *something* better than everyone around them -- whether that "something" is performing the skill at hand, or branding themselves in a distinctive way, or simply being more skillful/lucky at gauging what is going to make a reader's id go "poing!"

In any case, I think most BNFs are as stunned as anyone else at the cult of celebrity that grows up around them -- at least, the few people I know personally who could be termed "BNF" are just as kind and humble as any lower-echelon fan, and not at all comfortable with being placed on a pedestal. I imagine that your average celebrity feels likewise.

[tielan]

Unique, no.

but they are almost invariably skillful, prolific writers who also actively participate in the social life of the fandom

I'd question the 'skillful', actually. Certainly, there are fans who are very skilled writers/artists/creators, but I can think of some who are fairly mediocre in the overall schema of fandom, but who develop a "cult of celebrity" around them or hitch their cart to the right horse at the right time. I don't think picking the right horse at the right time is a skill so much as luck - unless they can do it repeatedly and in areas other than fandom.

You're right, though: some popularity is well-earned.

I think most BNFs are as stunned as anyone else at the cult of celebrity that grows up around them

Initially surprised, yes; but I've also seen fandom BNFs - be they ever so humble and sociable among their friends - use their influence as the thin edge of wedge politics.

It doesn't happen in all cases, but it does happen in some. It may not happen with any of the BNFs you personally know, but I have seen it happen.

[friendshipper.livejournal.com]

I think we've all seen so-called BNFs behaving badly. What I think is interesting about a lot of those brouhahas is how the behavior of the anti-BNF factions can get at least as unpleasant as that of the BNFs. I think the whole Cassandra Claire (http://wiki.fandomwank.com/index.php/Cassie_Claire) mess in HP fandom illustrated that in a major way -- it leaps to mind because I was in the fandom at the time, so I got a ringside seat for the implosion. Yes, she plagiarized and abused her BNF status to get goodies for herself, which is wrong, and she was rightly castigated for it. But at the same time, there was a huge backlash of people who were tearing her apart for things that would have flown under the radar a couple of years previously. Everything she did came under intense scrutiny, including her writing, which was getting raked over the coals in pretty much every way, where it had been garnering good reviews back when she was a no-name fan. It's doubly interesting to me because the "summary" version that I'm seeing bandied about these days does not quite tally with what I was observing at the time. And I don't have a horse in that race -- I don't know any of the people involved, in any way other than the peripheral fannish way you "know" people by reading their fic and meta.

It's a weird double-edged sword, because BNFs have more than the usual amount of influence in the fandom, and may use (or abuse) it, but they also come under a kind of scrutiny and criticism that we usually don't turn on our fellow fen. The bar is set a lot higher for BNFs, just like we set the bar higher for "famous" books than for relative unknowns.

Anyway, all of that goes back to what you were saying about unpleasant social behavior earlier -- I think there are people in fandom who gravitate towards BNFs because of the cult of celebrity surrounding them, and there are *also* people in fandom who revel in their rebel status and develop their own little iconoclastic cult-of-celebrity by criticizing BNFs. Obviously, I'm not pointing fingers at you here; I don't think your post was that at all. In fact, I'm not sure if SGA fandom is really big enough to support that kind of behavior in any major way, like HP fandom is. In fact, I think your use of the term anti-popular at the start of your post is a good one for that mentality, because I think that's *exactly* what people were doing during the Cassandra Claire thing: stressing that they weren't popular enough to be in her clique and, by doing so, courting a sort of weird anti-celebrity celebrity following.

[tielan]

The bar is set a lot higher for BNFs

*wry*

With great power comes great accountability?