on female characters "not being good enough" for main male characters

[tielan]

Thoughts by bookshop on "Why can't a woman be more like a man?":

Oh, and let us not leave out Gwen/Arthur, and Gwen/Morgana. Everyone loves Gwen/Morgana. I love Gwen/Morgana. But if we love Gwen so much, why aren't we happy to see her and Arthur so happy together in S2? Don't we love Gwen enough to enjoy her stepping into her role as main character? Or do we only love her enough to shunt her off to the side to be happy with Morgana, so we can all enjoy the lovely Merlin/Arthur slash.

I want to address the main-male, main-female, secondary-male "triangle" that tends to form a pattern in fandoms.

There are any number of people who defend their love of female-with-anyone-but-male. Which is fine...except that this happens a lot. And it almost always happens that the characters involved are the primary female and the main male. TPTB get them together, or show them attracted to each other, and all hell breaks loose in fandom.

So here's my question: Why is it that the primary female character(s) in any canon are never good enough for the main male character?

The female character is permitted, allowed, acceptable, so long as she doesn't fall for the main male character (whom fans have generally shipped with the secondary - read, geeky - male character).

Teyla is a lovely character and people love her...unless she's paired with John Sheppard. Then it's just bad writing, uninteresting, the dynamic just doesn't work.

Sam is a great, kickass career woman...as long as she's not 'chasing after' Jack O'Neill. The instant she shows any care about him, the character is a betrayal of everything she stands for.

Gwen is a sweetheart, a compass of the heart for Merlin and Arthur both, and an anchor for Morgana. But when she falls for Arthur (and more importantly, Arthur falls for her), she's a slag, a slut, a whore, a stupid bitch who doesn't know her place (or her mind).

Uhura? Is fantastic, an intelligent woman of colour in a world without race or gender biases (allegedly). But the instant she kisses Spock, she becomes reviled, abhorrent, discomforting.

Maybe you really don't like the dynamics between John/Teyla, Sam/Jack, Arthur/Gwen, Uhura/Spock and prefer John/Rodney, Jack/Daniel, Arthur/Merlin, and Kirk/Spock. But if preferring two main, white, male characters in a homosexual pairing always comes at the expense of the canonical male/female het pairing, then isn't that an issue? Doesn't that become a kind of erasure of female characters from the relevance of the story - all the story, both the personal and character-driven arcs of relationships, friendships, and romance, as well as the customary functional elimination of a female character in these shows?

This is a pattern for us (fandom 'us') - go to any fandom and take a look at the fanfic.

Perhaps we should start asking ourselves why - without the excuses and the "but I do like Teyla/Sam/Gwen/Uhura, just not with..."

It's not the individual examples that discomfort me - well, they do, but that's because I love these pairings and I want others to love them, too - it's the fact that these are patterns that get repeated in fandom after fandom, show after show. It's the fact that fandom doesn't do this once, they do it again, and again, and again, and again. And each time, the same excuses get recycled:

"She's just not strong enough to be paired with the male lead."

"She's just not interesting enough for me to care about her."

"She's just doesn't have chemistry with the male lead."

Maybe the individual character of this show isn't your type. Maybe the dynamic just isn't your thing. Maybe it's innocuous, innocent, and entirely unintended. Hooray! No need for this feminist guilt claptrap, break out the beer and lets go sit on the pier with our best buds and be manly men in a subtextual way (except for the part where 99% of us are women)!

Still. There's a pattern in fan behaviour that says a woman is good enough to be paired with anyone 'secondary', but only a male will do for the main male character.

And isn't that sexist?

eta: This post was initially focused on looking at fannish reactions to canonical male/female pairings, and then how that translates into fannish behaviour and attitudes. Also, if your OTP or preferred pairing isn't one of these, it's not a criticism of your pairing preferences, it's a look at why fandoms react in such a viciously negative manner to these specific types of m/f pairings.

Comments

[astridv]

calling sexism and misogyny when, actually, they just want slashers to write them some het, because that's what they like, and they're jumping on a convenient bandwagon.

That's a bit of a leap, I think. Why would a het shipper even want hetfic written by a slasher? I know that I'm wary of shipfic where I know the writer isn't into the ship.

Personally I just don't want to run into character bashing unawares.

to completely reject another human being on the basis of who she chooses to turn into sex puppets for her online puppet show

Who's talking about sex puppets? She's talking about any kind of involvement, any thought, any bit of meta, an icon, anything at all, just as long as it's dedicated to a female character. I think it's not too much to ask to put actions with your words. I think someone just isn't credible when they criticize canon writers for not giving us adequately developed female characters and for giving all the meaty storylines to their boys (white boys, at that), but they don't do anything different themselves. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree re. Yahtzee's post. [eta: I should add for context that Yahtzee's post was prompted by critisism of Uhura's role in nuTrek.]

[carolyn_claire]

From the beginning of the ship/slash wars there have been hetters who have bemoaned the existence of slash, wondered why anyone in the world anyone wouldn't prefer to put a woman with a man the way they do, and wish that slashers would write het, because that's what they want to see more of. This argument and that POV was going on when I got into XF fandom, 15 years ago, and was going on before, and it's still happening. The difference, now, is that het ficcers who want to see more of their genre written are jumping on the bandwagon created by those who want to see more women written into fandom in general and are asking if there's inherent sexism in women not writing m/f relationship fic or are pointing to het fic as the best venue for presenting women in fandom. And I've known women who have written predominately slash who enjoy the female characters without writing them and who have decided to write some het--there was a group of "slashers write het" stories that came out a few years ago, and they were terrific stories. There are absolutely het ficcers who want to see more of that happen, because they want what they want and they're made angry by the prevalence of slash and feel it detracts from their enjoyment of fandom. That's always been true, even before slash became the majority genre. Once all that was voiced openly; now it's slyly hidden behind concern-trolling questioning of slash writers' dedication to feminism. Same goal, different, less honest, approach.

The context of Yahtzee's post doesn't change my opinion about what she said; it was wrong, and I won't agree to disagree with you because I think she's wrong and that anyone who adopts that attitude toward other fen is wrong, too. So someone thinks there should be more attractive representation of women in source media but doesn't write women from those media sources, herself--those are two different issues. She's not complaining about the lack of female characters in the the fandom for that source, she's talking about source. Her writing Uhura fic isn't going to inspire TPTB to do more with Uhura in the source; she's choosing characters to play with who excite her, and Uhura isn't one who excites her in that way, but that doesn't mean she doesn't want to see more Uhura when she watches the movies. Source and fandom aren't the same product; people watch source and write fanfic for different reasons. But, beyond that, to disregard her because she has no Uhura icons and doesn't post meta about how fascinating Uhura is because that makes her, what, a hypocrite? is wrong. Does she work locally for women's well-being in RL? Is she raising children with conscience and feminist perspective? Does she vote and support campaigns for those who promote women's issues? Will you KNOW any that by looking at the female face count in her journal? No; you can't. Is that face count the only measure of a human being's character or worth that matters? Will you shun other fen on the basis of whether they create fannish output that includes women? I won't, and I don't think it's right to do so.

[astridv]

From the beginning of the ship/slash wars there have been hetters who have bemoaned the existence of slash, wondered why anyone in the world anyone wouldn't prefer to put a woman with a man the way they do, and wish that slashers would write het, because that's what they want to see more of. This argument and that POV was going on when I got into XF fandom, 15 years ago, and was going on before, and it's still happening.

It is true that this stance existed, I remember it back from the Buffy days. It seems doubtful to me that it's still happening since I haven't come across it since than, but then again I won't say that it's not out there just because I haven't seen it. And indeed if it does exist, it's just as hypocritical as slashers bashing female characters under the pretense of feminism. Concern trolling is exasperating no matter what corner it's coming from. Just, the one thing doesn't cancel out the other.

Her writing Uhura fic isn't going to inspire TPTB to do more with Uhura in the source;

Actually I strongly suspect that a positive fandom response to Uhura would prompt TPTB to give her a more fleshed-out role, as has happened countless times with guy characters, from Angel to Castiel.

But, beyond that, to disregard her because she has no Uhura icons and doesn't post meta about how fascinating Uhura is because that makes her, what, a hypocrite? is wrong. Does she work locally for women's well-being in RL? Is she raising children with conscience and feminist perspective? Does she vote and support campaigns for those who promote women's issues?

All true. But another person't online persona is all I see of them, so what else can I base my opinion on?


Will you shun other fen on the basis of whether they create fannish output that includes women? I won't, and I don't think it's right to do so.

While her rant was triggered by anti-Uhura sentiment, she's not talking just about Uhura. It's about people who're not liking any female character ever (well, not ever but 5 years is close enough.) It's about extreme case, and they're out there. It's just my experience that this never liking a female character goes hand in hand with being overly critical of them. All this time in online fandom has shown me that if I stick around people who don't like female characters, I'm likely to get burned, because I love them. I don't want to get burned any more. So I will keep my distance.

And I stand by what I said. I think if people are saying one thing while not ever backing it up with actions (actions in this case also being words), instead their actions actively contradict what they're saying... well, no, I do not dismiss them as a human being (and I don't see where I even implied that) but their argument becomes less credible.

[carolyn_claire]

It seems doubtful to me that it's still happening since I haven't come across it since than

Then you've been lucky. It is, and does.

Actually I strongly suspect that a positive fandom response to Uhura would prompt TPTB to give her a more fleshed-out role, as has happened countless times with guy characters, from Angel to Castiel.

Online fen give themselves SO MUCH credit for being powerful and important to TPTB, when we're actually still seen as a fringe group outside the habits and tastes of the mainstream viewer. Online fen have become a source of viral marketing, at times, and producers of source have realized, in some cases, that those fen can be manipulated into working towards the producer's goals--letter writing campaigns to keep a show alive, etc.--but they do not program based on the wished of online fen. They do not check the number of Uhura stories before they write her lines, just as they do not weight the number of slash stories against het stories and decide to feature fewer women in their product. The worship of the male, 18-34 yo demographic is the reason for the lack of strong leading female characters in media, not that female fen aren't writing Uhura stories. They're going to give the guys what they want, because that's where the money is, right now. Or so they think. That's bone-headedly wrong, but that's their thinking. (They're often 18-34 yo (white) males, themselves, so everyone must want what they do, of course.)

But another person't online persona is all I see of them, so what else can I base my opinion on?

Same answer I gave Miera--is a person's fannish output all you look at? Is that all you're interested in? Do you read their posts about non-fannish topics? Have you ever made a friend online who wasn't just a fannish acquaintance? Does anything about another person matter to you besides her fannish output? Do you realize that people are about much more than their fannish output, that their lives encompass so much that has nothing to do with who they write snogging? That there's a whole PERSON behind the fannish pen name? There's so much to know and appreciate about people beyond who they put in their stories. I really don't understand anyone not realizing or caring about that. The info is there, unless all you want to read about someone is her stories. And if that's all you're interested in, then, I guess it is.

There's a difference between being VERY interested in certain male characters, being in love with them and wanting to think about them and write about them constantly and not feeling the same way about the female characters in that source, and in disliking the female characters. Lack of interest does not equal dislike, hatred, bashing, etc. I'm offended by female character bashers, and I speak out to and against them. I am not offended by people who don't write female characters because they're desperately in love with a character(s) who is not female and make that beloved character their fannish focus. I think that, too often, those two things are being conflated. A slash fan may move from fandom to fandom, falling in love with men, and never say or do a bashing or overtly negative thing against a female character--the vast majority of them do, IMO. The ones who bash are different; the bashing comes from a different place. Again, I've known plenty of women who enjoy the female characters on a show and would like to see them treated better by TPTB but write the characters who they're in love with with no intent to hurt those who they don't. These aren't bad people, and they're definitely worth knowing, as people.

I do not dismiss them as a human being (and I don't see where I even implied that)

To say that that person has nothing to say on any subject that one wants to hear (which is what the OP of that statement said) because of their female face count says that that person isn't worth knowing, isn't worth listening to, has nothing of value of say, just for that reason. That's out of hand dismissal of their personhood. I object to that.

[astridv]

Online fen give themselves SO MUCH credit for being powerful and important to TPTB, when we're actually still seen as a fringe group outside the habits and tastes of the mainstream viewer.

Seeing as it has happened, I wouldn't underestimate our influence either. Obviously tptb aren't tallying fic stats, but judging by interviews and tweets, they get the gist. And I'm guessing this is only gonna get more common.

Same answer I gave Miera--is a person's fannish output all you look at? Is that all you're interested in?

At first? Yes, it is. I'm friending people because I like their fanwork or find their meta interesting. Every once in a while, real friendship develops out of that over time. I read rl posts as well, but in the first place I come for the fandom part.

To say that that person has nothing to say on any subject that one wants to hear (which is what the OP of that statement said) because of their female face count says that that person isn't worth knowing, isn't worth listening to, has nothing of value of say, just for that reason. That's out of hand dismissal of their personhood. I object to that.

Okay. If it's the 'everything else' part you take issue with, I can concede that because it's hyperbole and I don't subsribe to that view. But if you have a problem with the rest of the statement and can't agree to disagree, than we'll just have to disagree period.