observation/query/debate

[tielan]

I've noticed that quite a few people who were pro-John/Teyla have been very anti-Teyla in Season Four.

Pretty much, ever since Teyla entered into a relationship with Kanaan of Athos, there's been a lot of anti-Teyla sentiment in the form of whining, complaining, and bitching about Teyla.

So far, I've seen it on forums and mailing lists and in fics where John takes the "moral high ground" with Teyla, implying that if they're not together, it's her fault for sleeping with Kanaan and rejecting him. The fact that John has trouble connecting at a close emotional level with anyone is rarely addressed.

Has anyone else seen this around the place? And not just people being pro John/Teyla and anti-Teyla, but people being pro-A/B pairing while being very anti-A or anti-B (in either their words, and if not their words, then in their treatment of them in fic and reviews)?

Comments

[beanie-j.livejournal.com]

Funnily enough, I've seen this before in the SGA fandom - by Sheppard/Weir shippers - especially post-'Conversion' because he kissed/sexually assaulted* (* delete as applicable) Teyla.

I've seen so many people pro Sheppard/Weir who are anti-Sheppard. In fact, I've seen it in McShep as well. With people being 'anti' one of the guys.

[tielan]

So was that because he 'betrayed' Elizabeth by approaching Teyla? Or because he 'assaulted' Teyla?

[beanie-j.livejournal.com]

Your guess is as good as mine. Half the time I couldn't figure out what the hell the problem was...

[tielan]

Well, I guess the issue is also that sometimes the problem has several layers.

[caladria.livejournal.com]

But if pairing A/B is disrupted by A falling/showing an interest in person C, then person A is always "at fault".

These are the lessons of fandom, yes?

Sam/Jack and Pete in SG-1 as an exact replica, and Jack/Ianto in Torchwood (the implication seeming to be that Jack is going to smash Ianto's little woobie heart either by being hedonistic and polyamorous and all 51st century or by sleeping with another of the team and that he should bloody well start acting like he's in a fluff fic).

[tielan]

I remember the Jack/Sam/Pete issue in SG1 now that you mention it - there were certainly enough people who were furious with Sam going off with Pete.

I had issues with the storyline - more for the way Pete was introduced and how the audience was expected to accept him than the fact that Sam had a relationship with him.

And I haven't gotten into Torchwood fandom. I don't think I much want to, either. :)

[caladria.livejournal.com]

there were certainly enough people who were furious with Sam going off with Pete.

Past tense? Although maybe I'm just unearthing the old fic. My issues with Pete never got logical grounding (he has the Deluise chin. I have a deep, abiding dislike of the Deluise chin and, you know, screw the storyline. Big. Square. Chin) but... gah. I think anytime a hint of "betrayal" rears its head, fandom drops like a bomb on the accused party. Because fandom's melodramatic and likes nothing better than to wallow in but you're breaking his/her/its heart!!. And it's always worse when it's the woman.

Or when it's the character that fandom's invested in (and i don't want to make assumptions, being completely uninvolved, but I'd guess that there's a fair few John/Teyla shippers that just want to pair John off with a female not-Elizabeth and Teyla was there... Which, I'd guess, would leave Teyla trying to live up to the standards needed to be "John's girl"? As always, my ability to be wrong is never in question).

Or maybe I've overdosed on cynicism today.

Torchwood, I only wade into for the fic (because god help me, I've started 'shipping it. Or whatever you call canon m/m) and avoid the batshit.

[mahoni.livejournal.com]

I've seen it where character X is always written as the pious, put-upon, loyal one who is taken for granted and downtrodden by character Y until said lover stops being an ass by realizing (often by way of intervention by stern mutual friends who only have X & Y's best interests in mind) how WONDERFUL character X is and how lucky he is to have him, and what a horrible, horrible person he is without him.

Blech.

[tielan]

That's the extreme end of the spectrum - and a lot of stories that hold that view are written more subtly - but, yeah, blech.

[chyti.livejournal.com]

i just read a fic where this is apparent. i don't understand why some feel teyla betrayed john when he has just to step up emotionally and declared any feelings whatsoever. actually i'm surprised it took this long, i doubt if teyla was sitting amongst her people waiting for john sheppard to appear before she had any interest in a man.

[tielan]

I think it's more that the fans feel betrayed that John and Teyla didn't get together and that they've dealt with Teyla having a relationship with another man without actually dealing with John/Teyla at all.

[greenconverses.livejournal.com]

Been wandering around in the John/Teyla thread at GW lately, have we? ;)

Did I ever tell you about the fic I read where John actually burst in on Teyla while she and Kaanan were going at it, and she didn't kick his ass for it? The author actually made her apologize and feel bad about getting it on with her boyfriend while emo!John suffered in the corner because he was rejected? The Teyla-hate in the John/Teyla section is an amazing and terrifying thing.

[tielan]

No, you didn't tell me about that fic.

But it doesn't exactly surprise me.

[lavenderfrost.livejournal.com]

Eh-heh. ^^;;

You already know I'm a fandom hermit, so I dunno if my opinion is worth much. But from what I can see, it seems like all the Anti-Teyla stuff has come from people who never liked her in the first place. Now, I'd say I've seen a lot of frustration from Teyla Fen who hate how she and her storyline were handled this season, but I wouldn't call that Anti-Teyla. Just...aggravated.

Everyone goes through it with their characters at some point. Hell - as diehard/hardcore a Supernatural fan as I am, I ended up with sizeable Winchester gripes this past season. ^^;; I still loves me some Sam & Dean, but they made me want to pull my hair out this year.

[tielan]

Oh, I agree that the Teyla-fans were frustrated by the lack of her in S4. I'm one of those people. On the other hand, I get why it was difficult to include her: the physical action was out, and TPTB don't do strong character pieces. If this was BSG, now...but it's not.

But these are people writing the character off for not making the choices they would make - for not picking John over Kanaan, for not insisting on being an pregnant-and-working woman and upholding the cause of feminism, for not being on screen all the time when RL was off due to pregnancy.

And, yeah, it's given the anti-Teyla fans a lot of ammunition since she's not around. That "best team ever (that doesn't include Teyla)" banner is a more obvious example.

But I see people who are writing Teyla off as a character because she doesn't make the choices they want her to make. Maybe they never much liked Teyla in the first place - it wouldn't be the first set of fans who showed just how little they really liked her: a lot of Elizabeth fans turned on her during the S3-S4 hiatus - but it's disappointing to find, all the same.

[agriope23.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that I've disliked Teyla this season, but not because of Kanaan.

I don't really recognize her anymore. I was looking forward to her big arc in S4: her reaction to losing her people, her child, etc. I'm disappointed with what I got.

Missing was amazing, naturally, and BAMSR and SoW hold a special place in my heart, but other than that, the Teyla we got offered was very bland and IMO even weak. I lost a lot of interest in John/Teyla and instead spent more time focusing on John and even writing him.

My point was though, that John and Teyla end up inhabiting different spheres in S4. He's all over the place, waging the war and she has to sit on the sidelines and watch (which totally sucks BTW!. Her sphere is all about her child and her people.

Look at Outcast: a huge development ep for John and no Teyla! Teyla/Kanaan ended up being the biggest storyline for JT and I think that's what people really resent. I guess it's just easier to take it out on Teyla.

I hope this makes sense,it's 4 am and I should be sleeping. But I've missed fandom...

[tielan]

I didn't like that Teyla didn't get to do anything "because she was pregnant" or "because Rachel was pregnant". That's different to "not liking Teyla".

I still liked what we saw of Teyla; but a lot of the responses I've beeing seen from all over fandom write Teyla off entirely. She's mean and cruel because she didn't choose John over Kanaan. She's stupid because she didn't fight for the rights of pregnant women in all the fictional and non-fictional universes. She's boring because she was pregnant and couldn't do anything during the season.

Yes, I was frustrated with the limits of the storyline - but Teyla's still an awesome character. Her situation has changed; her innate awesomeness hasn't.

And that's the frustration I'm feeling with fandom right now.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi ! This is a so true subject.
I find it and wanted to post my opinion if it doesn't bothered you.
I'm myself on a forum and I go on a Shep/Teyla thread and it's true that a lot of people are complaining. Either Shep fan who think that Teyla betrayed John (wich unnerved me because he never did a move on the contrary of her who shows her interest. And he spends his time to see other women. Okay not spend his time but she doesn't say anything and now all is her fault) This isn't the subject I'm sorry.
I see too a lot of people who are really fan and really hate this storyline which bothered me a little because I love Teyla and I'm glad that the author give her something to do. I'm a little hurt that even the Teyla fan give weapons (? sorry I'm not english and I don't know how to say it) to people who don't like her. And even if it's because they love her, it seems that there is a lot more of people who hate her (we said something like love and hate aren't far away, it's perhaps this).
For myself I'm perhaps the only one who always defend her and like her storyline. (Am I a bad fan ?)
And if you permit me I have to say that for me Teyla is the person who was the most consistent this year (I hear a lot that she was inconsistent and stupid and I don't know what else) For me she really growths differently than what we were accustomed, the author gave her the opportunity to act. And I was happily surprised to discover that she was in a lot more of eps than I expected (they even introduced her in Midway while she wasn't particularly necessary ; when was the las time they did this ? besides this storyline could keep on going in season 5)
I could keep on going but I discovered I'm off topic I'm sorry. And I understand your frustration, this is her which motivate me to register to a forum.

[tielan]

Hi! Thanks for posting your thoughts - they're appreciated.

I may be overreacting to some of the grumbling, but it's annoying and uncalled for. Sure, I was hoping to see more Teyla and more John/Teyla relationship, but given Rachel's pregnancy and the kind of PTB that we're working with, there was never much hope of that.

Thanks for speaking up for her. I gave up on a lot of fans, simply because their idea of Teyla (and of John/Teyla) doesn't match mine.

[agriope23.livejournal.com]

I think it depends on the kind of person (or fan) you are. Cause around the second half of S4, I’d write fic that was either timeless, in the sense that it was set in an atemporal place, somewhere in S3, or S2, just not where the show actually was.

I felt like I was writing Teyla like she used to be, like I thought she should be. Kind of like the stories where she’s adopting puppies and naming them after her father and mother and she cries when they run away from home!

I’m exaggerating of course, but my point is just that if we don’t get to see a great Teyla on the show (her behavior, not the storylines), then can we really say that she is a great character? And if we do, by basing it on how we think she should be, how does that make us different than the hypothetical puppy story writer?

This is all for argument’s sake cause I love Teyla and you’re right, she’s a great character. I just haven’t seen that much of it so I kind of forgot. I think I’ll marathon a few of Teyla- centric eps. Should be a nice hour. :)

As for fandom, it makes me so angry too cause it seems like a lot of people just gave up. They heard the Teyla-arc was coming, the season started off great but they didn’t get all the J/T they'd expected and taking it out on Teyla is so easy. J/T didn’t rule S4? It must</>i be Teyla’s fault.

[beanie-j.livejournal.com]

Funnily enough, I've seen this before in the SGA fandom - by Sheppard/Weir shippers - especially post-'Conversion' because he kissed/sexually assaulted* (* delete as applicable) Teyla.

I've seen so many people pro Sheppard/Weir who are anti-Sheppard. In fact, I've seen it in McShep as well. With people being 'anti' one of the guys.

[tielan]

So was that because he 'betrayed' Elizabeth by approaching Teyla? Or because he 'assaulted' Teyla?

[beanie-j.livejournal.com]

Your guess is as good as mine. Half the time I couldn't figure out what the hell the problem was...

[tielan]

Well, I guess the issue is also that sometimes the problem has several layers.

[caladria.livejournal.com]

But if pairing A/B is disrupted by A falling/showing an interest in person C, then person A is always "at fault".

These are the lessons of fandom, yes?

Sam/Jack and Pete in SG-1 as an exact replica, and Jack/Ianto in Torchwood (the implication seeming to be that Jack is going to smash Ianto's little woobie heart either by being hedonistic and polyamorous and all 51st century or by sleeping with another of the team and that he should bloody well start acting like he's in a fluff fic).

[tielan]

I remember the Jack/Sam/Pete issue in SG1 now that you mention it - there were certainly enough people who were furious with Sam going off with Pete.

I had issues with the storyline - more for the way Pete was introduced and how the audience was expected to accept him than the fact that Sam had a relationship with him.

And I haven't gotten into Torchwood fandom. I don't think I much want to, either. :)

[caladria.livejournal.com]

there were certainly enough people who were furious with Sam going off with Pete.

Past tense? Although maybe I'm just unearthing the old fic. My issues with Pete never got logical grounding (he has the Deluise chin. I have a deep, abiding dislike of the Deluise chin and, you know, screw the storyline. Big. Square. Chin) but... gah. I think anytime a hint of "betrayal" rears its head, fandom drops like a bomb on the accused party. Because fandom's melodramatic and likes nothing better than to wallow in but you're breaking his/her/its heart!!. And it's always worse when it's the woman.

Or when it's the character that fandom's invested in (and i don't want to make assumptions, being completely uninvolved, but I'd guess that there's a fair few John/Teyla shippers that just want to pair John off with a female not-Elizabeth and Teyla was there... Which, I'd guess, would leave Teyla trying to live up to the standards needed to be "John's girl"? As always, my ability to be wrong is never in question).

Or maybe I've overdosed on cynicism today.

Torchwood, I only wade into for the fic (because god help me, I've started 'shipping it. Or whatever you call canon m/m) and avoid the batshit.

[mahoni.livejournal.com]

I've seen it where character X is always written as the pious, put-upon, loyal one who is taken for granted and downtrodden by character Y until said lover stops being an ass by realizing (often by way of intervention by stern mutual friends who only have X & Y's best interests in mind) how WONDERFUL character X is and how lucky he is to have him, and what a horrible, horrible person he is without him.

Blech.

[tielan]

That's the extreme end of the spectrum - and a lot of stories that hold that view are written more subtly - but, yeah, blech.

[chyti.livejournal.com]

i just read a fic where this is apparent. i don't understand why some feel teyla betrayed john when he has just to step up emotionally and declared any feelings whatsoever. actually i'm surprised it took this long, i doubt if teyla was sitting amongst her people waiting for john sheppard to appear before she had any interest in a man.

[tielan]

I think it's more that the fans feel betrayed that John and Teyla didn't get together and that they've dealt with Teyla having a relationship with another man without actually dealing with John/Teyla at all.

[greenconverses.livejournal.com]

Been wandering around in the John/Teyla thread at GW lately, have we? ;)

Did I ever tell you about the fic I read where John actually burst in on Teyla while she and Kaanan were going at it, and she didn't kick his ass for it? The author actually made her apologize and feel bad about getting it on with her boyfriend while emo!John suffered in the corner because he was rejected? The Teyla-hate in the John/Teyla section is an amazing and terrifying thing.

[tielan]

No, you didn't tell me about that fic.

But it doesn't exactly surprise me.

[lavenderfrost.livejournal.com]

Eh-heh. ^^;;

You already know I'm a fandom hermit, so I dunno if my opinion is worth much. But from what I can see, it seems like all the Anti-Teyla stuff has come from people who never liked her in the first place. Now, I'd say I've seen a lot of frustration from Teyla Fen who hate how she and her storyline were handled this season, but I wouldn't call that Anti-Teyla. Just...aggravated.

Everyone goes through it with their characters at some point. Hell - as diehard/hardcore a Supernatural fan as I am, I ended up with sizeable Winchester gripes this past season. ^^;; I still loves me some Sam & Dean, but they made me want to pull my hair out this year.

[tielan]

Oh, I agree that the Teyla-fans were frustrated by the lack of her in S4. I'm one of those people. On the other hand, I get why it was difficult to include her: the physical action was out, and TPTB don't do strong character pieces. If this was BSG, now...but it's not.

But these are people writing the character off for not making the choices they would make - for not picking John over Kanaan, for not insisting on being an pregnant-and-working woman and upholding the cause of feminism, for not being on screen all the time when RL was off due to pregnancy.

And, yeah, it's given the anti-Teyla fans a lot of ammunition since she's not around. That "best team ever (that doesn't include Teyla)" banner is a more obvious example.

But I see people who are writing Teyla off as a character because she doesn't make the choices they want her to make. Maybe they never much liked Teyla in the first place - it wouldn't be the first set of fans who showed just how little they really liked her: a lot of Elizabeth fans turned on her during the S3-S4 hiatus - but it's disappointing to find, all the same.

[agriope23.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that I've disliked Teyla this season, but not because of Kanaan.

I don't really recognize her anymore. I was looking forward to her big arc in S4: her reaction to losing her people, her child, etc. I'm disappointed with what I got.

Missing was amazing, naturally, and BAMSR and SoW hold a special place in my heart, but other than that, the Teyla we got offered was very bland and IMO even weak. I lost a lot of interest in John/Teyla and instead spent more time focusing on John and even writing him.

My point was though, that John and Teyla end up inhabiting different spheres in S4. He's all over the place, waging the war and she has to sit on the sidelines and watch (which totally sucks BTW!. Her sphere is all about her child and her people.

Look at Outcast: a huge development ep for John and no Teyla! Teyla/Kanaan ended up being the biggest storyline for JT and I think that's what people really resent. I guess it's just easier to take it out on Teyla.

I hope this makes sense,it's 4 am and I should be sleeping. But I've missed fandom...

[tielan]

I didn't like that Teyla didn't get to do anything "because she was pregnant" or "because Rachel was pregnant". That's different to "not liking Teyla".

I still liked what we saw of Teyla; but a lot of the responses I've beeing seen from all over fandom write Teyla off entirely. She's mean and cruel because she didn't choose John over Kanaan. She's stupid because she didn't fight for the rights of pregnant women in all the fictional and non-fictional universes. She's boring because she was pregnant and couldn't do anything during the season.

Yes, I was frustrated with the limits of the storyline - but Teyla's still an awesome character. Her situation has changed; her innate awesomeness hasn't.

And that's the frustration I'm feeling with fandom right now.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi ! This is a so true subject.
I find it and wanted to post my opinion if it doesn't bothered you.
I'm myself on a forum and I go on a Shep/Teyla thread and it's true that a lot of people are complaining. Either Shep fan who think that Teyla betrayed John (wich unnerved me because he never did a move on the contrary of her who shows her interest. And he spends his time to see other women. Okay not spend his time but she doesn't say anything and now all is her fault) This isn't the subject I'm sorry.
I see too a lot of people who are really fan and really hate this storyline which bothered me a little because I love Teyla and I'm glad that the author give her something to do. I'm a little hurt that even the Teyla fan give weapons (? sorry I'm not english and I don't know how to say it) to people who don't like her. And even if it's because they love her, it seems that there is a lot more of people who hate her (we said something like love and hate aren't far away, it's perhaps this).
For myself I'm perhaps the only one who always defend her and like her storyline. (Am I a bad fan ?)
And if you permit me I have to say that for me Teyla is the person who was the most consistent this year (I hear a lot that she was inconsistent and stupid and I don't know what else) For me she really growths differently than what we were accustomed, the author gave her the opportunity to act. And I was happily surprised to discover that she was in a lot more of eps than I expected (they even introduced her in Midway while she wasn't particularly necessary ; when was the las time they did this ? besides this storyline could keep on going in season 5)
I could keep on going but I discovered I'm off topic I'm sorry. And I understand your frustration, this is her which motivate me to register to a forum.

[tielan]

Hi! Thanks for posting your thoughts - they're appreciated.

I may be overreacting to some of the grumbling, but it's annoying and uncalled for. Sure, I was hoping to see more Teyla and more John/Teyla relationship, but given Rachel's pregnancy and the kind of PTB that we're working with, there was never much hope of that.

Thanks for speaking up for her. I gave up on a lot of fans, simply because their idea of Teyla (and of John/Teyla) doesn't match mine.

[agriope23.livejournal.com]

I think it depends on the kind of person (or fan) you are. Cause around the second half of S4, I’d write fic that was either timeless, in the sense that it was set in an atemporal place, somewhere in S3, or S2, just not where the show actually was.

I felt like I was writing Teyla like she used to be, like I thought she should be. Kind of like the stories where she’s adopting puppies and naming them after her father and mother and she cries when they run away from home!

I’m exaggerating of course, but my point is just that if we don’t get to see a great Teyla on the show (her behavior, not the storylines), then can we really say that she is a great character? And if we do, by basing it on how we think she should be, how does that make us different than the hypothetical puppy story writer?

This is all for argument’s sake cause I love Teyla and you’re right, she’s a great character. I just haven’t seen that much of it so I kind of forgot. I think I’ll marathon a few of Teyla- centric eps. Should be a nice hour. :)

As for fandom, it makes me so angry too cause it seems like a lot of people just gave up. They heard the Teyla-arc was coming, the season started off great but they didn’t get all the J/T they'd expected and taking it out on Teyla is so easy. J/T didn’t rule S4? It must</>i be Teyla’s fault.