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Specifically, Gateworld fandom.
In which a poster says that if Teyla ever hooks up with Sheppard, she'll no longer be a strong, intelligent, and independant woman, but a slut submitting to racism and sexism.
It's over on page 2 of Gateworld News: Story Details Of "The Queen".
Obviously, there are spoilers for Season Five in the above link, although John and Teyla hooking up is not actually one of those spoilers. I'd love it if it were - mostly because fandom would lose it like a big losing thing and I would order a year's worth of popcorn and several flameproof suits - but it's not.
The actual comment, plus commentary:
Because what I'm seeing this person saying is that a woman who sleeps with more than one person in the course of her entire lifetime is a slut. If she gives birth to one man's child, then sleeps with another man, she's a slut. If she falls in love with another man, she's a slut.
I understand someone who doesn't want John/Teyla as a pairing - pairing preferences are one thing. I don't understand someone who's got such a rigid view of life and love and sexuality - that a woman must only ever love or sexually have one man or she's a slut.
Maybe that's not what they meant to say. Maybe what they meant to say is that they don't want John/Teyla as a pairing and tried to use Teyla/Kanaan as a True Love That Should Not Be Denied reason to keep Teyla away from John. But I'm disturbed by what the poster ended up implying about Teyla (and women and mothers): that she can never have any kind of a love interest or a love life from now on because she once loved Kanaan and gave birth to his child and any other man from now until her death would be a betrayal of that.
In which a poster says that if Teyla ever hooks up with Sheppard, she'll no longer be a strong, intelligent, and independant woman, but a slut submitting to racism and sexism.
It's over on page 2 of Gateworld News: Story Details Of "The Queen".
Obviously, there are spoilers for Season Five in the above link, although John and Teyla hooking up is not actually one of those spoilers. I'd love it if it were - mostly because fandom would lose it like a big losing thing and I would order a year's worth of popcorn and several flameproof suits - but it's not.
The actual comment, plus commentary:
Finally! It's about time Teyla got a GOOD episode for a change, instead of the half-baked stuff she got last year.Am I taking this comment the wrong way, or is the underlying architecture of this thought problematic?
And please, no Sheppard/Teyla. Ever. Teyla's having a baby with another man that she's known and cared for deeply for all her life. If she suddenly swings towards Sheppard when she's never shown any interest in him before (in fact, every time she's been faced with the possibility of her being paired with Sheppard, she's totally freaked out in a bad way), it's going to make her look like a slut in a very bad soap opera. And Teyla is NOT a slut! She's a strong, intelligent and independent woman, and pairing her up with Sheppard now will look sexist and racist. This is the 21st century. We don't need to see SGA degenerate into garbage like that.
Because what I'm seeing this person saying is that a woman who sleeps with more than one person in the course of her entire lifetime is a slut. If she gives birth to one man's child, then sleeps with another man, she's a slut. If she falls in love with another man, she's a slut.
I understand someone who doesn't want John/Teyla as a pairing - pairing preferences are one thing. I don't understand someone who's got such a rigid view of life and love and sexuality - that a woman must only ever love or sexually have one man or she's a slut.
Maybe that's not what they meant to say. Maybe what they meant to say is that they don't want John/Teyla as a pairing and tried to use Teyla/Kanaan as a True Love That Should Not Be Denied reason to keep Teyla away from John. But I'm disturbed by what the poster ended up implying about Teyla (and women and mothers): that she can never have any kind of a love interest or a love life from now on because she once loved Kanaan and gave birth to his child and any other man from now until her death would be a betrayal of that.
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You're making it incredibly difficult for me NOT to want to read spoilers... !
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Which, as far as I'm concerned, is good. I don't want to know absolutely everything about the episodes before I see it. Sometimes that can be a big deterrent, not an encouragement!
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That's my logic, anyway. It may or may not make sense.
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Hmm...where I have heard this before? ::thinks:: Oh, that's right, Sam & Jack (except for the racism part, of course). Fandom insanity never goes away, does it?
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The only truly feminist relationships are between two men, because women are incapable of being empowered in a relationship with a man.
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Teyla's having a baby with another man that she's known and cared for deeply for all her life.
This may be true, but since we've never ever seen any interactions with this 'love' except for zombie!Kanaan, I'm not really buying the love of her life thing. And even so....I'm sorry you can fall in love with another person and that does not make you a 'slut' or millions of women out there fall exactly in that category.
in fact, every time she's been faced with the possibility of her being paired with Sheppard, she's totally freaked out in a bad way
Are we watching the same show?
Also where is she getting this Teyla hooking up with John from the spoilers on GW? Unless there's something else on the frontage that I missed.
I'm loving what I read about the plot. So much better then my fears based on the episode title. (I didn't want to dicuss details since I don't want to spoil anyone)
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Yeah, I'm with that. Honestly, I can believe she cared about him as a friend, he made a move (under the aegis of Michael's influence? Now that's an interesting - and potentially loaded - question) and she accepted.
RL's even described it as being in a situation where one chooses what is familiar, even as one is attracted to what is different. I can't remember the precise context, but I believe she implied that, to Teyla, John was the attractive but different, while Kanaan was the safe and familiar.
The Teyla hooking up with John thing wasn't in the spoilers, it was in the comments. You know, people saying "I hope that we get Sheppard/Teyla moments" and other people jumping on them to protest that they don't want Sheppard/Teyla moments.
And all this makes me think of an ad: "Instant slut! Just add Sheppard!"
*coughs*
Honestly, I was seriously worried about the ep. "Michael" was more about Michael than it was about Teyla, and I could see the same thing happening in "The Queen" - I had this idea that Atlantis would try subverting a Wraith Queen...
Now, I'm only mildly worried. *g* My main concern is that Teyla will end up as a victim character needing to be saved (again).
I'd love it if the cavalry came too late, and found Teyla and Todd waiting for them after everything. "You're too late for the action. We dealt with it all." "But we worried about you!" "Your worry is appreciated but unnecessary." "So I see."
(Hey, Sheppard got to save himself in Common Ground. Why can't Teyla?)
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I can't remember the precise context, but I believe she implied that, to Teyla, John was the attractive but different, while Kanaan was the safe and familiar.
I agree. Kanaan is a childhood friend, someone safe who is Athosian and lives outside Atlantis where I am sure Teyla tries to escape from for obvious reasons from time to time. Kanaan has 'the gift' thus shares a rare experience with her..its not a big math problem to see them enjoying each other's company, but is this was such an important love that she kept it to herself.
My problem with the whole Teyla and Michael thing is that she becomes an instant 'victim' whenever he's involved which irks me to no end. He's kidnapped her what? Three freaking times? Sigh.
I agree with you about the possible pitfalls of the eppy, if there is trouble let he get herself out of it!
Of course my dream hope for the eppy involved the Team being captured and the only way to rescue them involved an idea of Teyla's and insert your imagination based on the name of the eppy. Hell, I'd love to see an eppy where she's the one to rescue the others period.
But I'd settle for a John and Teyla survive some time of situation on the run and do so convincingly with act/adv elements. They can even be captured and escape. I guess I'll stick to fanfic. :D
And all this makes me think of an ad: "Instant slut! Just add Sheppard!"
I've mainly read you fanfic so I'm not sure what your views are about Jophn's love life. But I've always seen John as sleeping with one person that we've been shown and that was Teer because he was lonely and after six months really thought he was stuck there.
I saw Chya's encounter as sharing energy, of essence. And I seriously doubt that John slept with that idiot in the 'Tower' once he found out all she wanted to do was have his kid. TBTB like to stick John with any slinky woman they can because he's the lead, but to be honest its been what four years? I'd be scared if the guy didn't have a sex life, which of course means that I think Teyla is allowed to have more then one relationship in the same time period as is any otther person on Atlantis. At least John's ex-wife seemed 'real' to me and I enjoyed the actress that played her, however we won't talk about Larrin....lol
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I presumed he slept with Chaya (Sanctuary) and Teer (Epiphany). I haven't seen the Tower, but I understand that there's an epilogue in which he tells Elizabeth he didn't sleep with Mara.
Larrin seems more of an obvious challenge - sexy alien chick who has an adversarial relationship with John. I think that most of the enjoyment out of that relationship (their enjoyment, not the audience's) is in the pursuit, chase, and challenge, not in the actual relationship.
Teyla, however, I see more as John's touchstone, someone with whom he shares more of the facets of who he is than he does with other women, and who he trusts emotionally (something that he doesn't really do with any other guys except Ronon). And that can easily move into the 'love' scenario for me.
I had some thoughts on how Teyla sees her relationship with John, but they're eluding me right now... I filed them somewhere in the back of my memory and I can't easily recall them.
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I have to agree with you on both comments. There's physical relationships and allowing a person close enough to you to share your feelings.
Intimacy vs affection/satisfaction.
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Word. That place is so bad at keeping people in their (separate) happy ponds.
pairing her up with Sheppard now will look sexist and racist
O rly? And what about pairing her up with Rodney, or Carson, or Zelenka? For that matter, Kanaan was kind of white-ish, was that racist? (Retro-active writing, yes. Racist? Not so much.)
I'd like to see the thread they were responding to, since these things tend to spiral out of sanity with lots of group help. Do you have a link?
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*pets*
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That was some prize special thinking right there. Racism and sexism? How did this person even go there? (And you know me, if I thought it was, I'd be on it in a hot minute with some serious analysis).
The only time we've seen Teyla be skeeved out by John was in Conversion and it was contextual. Other than that, they've both done the dance back and forth but nothing inappropriate.
What we know of Kanaan is this: she's known him since they were kids and yes, she cares for him. That's it. Heck, we didn't even know, or were given to believe, that Teyla was seeing her folks on a regular basis. Ronon knew but not John and Rodney (boo, for no slice of life stuff on SGA because really...).
Teyla hooking up with John makes her a slut? Um no. We haven't heard anything on the ship front and after Kindred pt. 2, there may not be anything left of Kanaan to save. He's been changed into a hybrid by Michael. If by chance Teyla and John somehow come together in the aftermath of all this? It won't be the first time that two really good friends came together first in comfort and then in a growing deep regard and love.
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I'm wondering how much of it has to do with Mallozzi's denial that the Atlantis expedition has any hint of colonialism in its attitudes to other cultures.
You know what this made me think of? The "Zoe/Wash = abusive relationship" rant by the chicky the other week. Where there was no actual proof of abusiveness, just a black woman hooked up with a white man.
I suspect that Kanaan is being billed as The Best Man For Teyla partly because he gets Teyla out of John's orbit in the same way that some people were all over Teyla/Ronon.
It won't be the first time that two really good friends came together first in comfort and then in a growing deep regard and love.
See, this? I'd love this. I doubt TPTB could do this, but if they could, I'd love it.
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1. Why Teyla becomes a 'slut' if she pursues another man other than Kanaan? Just because a woman has a child with one man who she loved, is she never supposed to find happiness again once losing him? She's supposed to be alone until she dies???
2. Almost all of the times she's been paired with John, she's freaked out in a bad way...okay, I must be having a dull moment, since I don't recall any canon pairing for John and Teyla apart from that time he tried to make her is mate whilst turning into an Iratus bug. Once more with feeling - "Subtext =/= Canon".
3. Pairing Teyla and John up would be 'sexist and racist'. I'd really like to know the context in which this is meant because my mind keeps supplying an inference by the OP that there is something wrong with interracial relationships, which is inherently racist in itself.
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2. If I had to pick another two 'shippy moments' for John and Teyla, I'd go with the moment after the headtouch in 'Return I' when John murmurs "Take care," to Teyla. The words are a private message he shares with Teyla that he doesn't share with Ronon - not even a grip of forearms and an injunction to look after himself, which I would have expected.
The other one would be 'Doppelganger' before the hug, when John gets up off his bed to go to Teyla. The hug itself is one friend to another and shows John's difficulty with closeness on an emotional-physical level. But John going to see Teyla when he's not sure if she'll even want to see him - that says "moving outside of my emotional comfort zone in a very confronting, very personal way" to me. John stretches himself physically for his team - no probs; but in this situation, he steps outside of familiar emotional space for Teyla. I can't, offhand, recall him doing that for anyone else in the show.
Not exactly shippy moments, but then, I have unusual ideas of what is 'shippy'. *g*
3. Yeah, I hearkened back to "a relationship between a white man and a black woman must be abusive" c/o that person who ranted about Firefly and Joss Whedon's wife.
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Could be a lot worse? ^^;;
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Just let it roll off you, man. Take Teyla's lead and meditate
on the Supreme Hotness of Shepparduntil you feel better. *G*no subject
there is a reason i avoid all message boards, except for one and that one is unrelated to fandom. everyone is made of stupid.
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You're making it incredibly difficult for me NOT to want to read spoilers... !
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Which, as far as I'm concerned, is good. I don't want to know absolutely everything about the episodes before I see it. Sometimes that can be a big deterrent, not an encouragement!
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That's my logic, anyway. It may or may not make sense.
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Hmm...where I have heard this before? ::thinks:: Oh, that's right, Sam & Jack (except for the racism part, of course). Fandom insanity never goes away, does it?
no subject
The only truly feminist relationships are between two men, because women are incapable of being empowered in a relationship with a man.
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Teyla's having a baby with another man that she's known and cared for deeply for all her life.
This may be true, but since we've never ever seen any interactions with this 'love' except for zombie!Kanaan, I'm not really buying the love of her life thing. And even so....I'm sorry you can fall in love with another person and that does not make you a 'slut' or millions of women out there fall exactly in that category.
in fact, every time she's been faced with the possibility of her being paired with Sheppard, she's totally freaked out in a bad way
Are we watching the same show?
Also where is she getting this Teyla hooking up with John from the spoilers on GW? Unless there's something else on the frontage that I missed.
I'm loving what I read about the plot. So much better then my fears based on the episode title. (I didn't want to dicuss details since I don't want to spoil anyone)
no subject
Yeah, I'm with that. Honestly, I can believe she cared about him as a friend, he made a move (under the aegis of Michael's influence? Now that's an interesting - and potentially loaded - question) and she accepted.
RL's even described it as being in a situation where one chooses what is familiar, even as one is attracted to what is different. I can't remember the precise context, but I believe she implied that, to Teyla, John was the attractive but different, while Kanaan was the safe and familiar.
The Teyla hooking up with John thing wasn't in the spoilers, it was in the comments. You know, people saying "I hope that we get Sheppard/Teyla moments" and other people jumping on them to protest that they don't want Sheppard/Teyla moments.
And all this makes me think of an ad: "Instant slut! Just add Sheppard!"
*coughs*
Honestly, I was seriously worried about the ep. "Michael" was more about Michael than it was about Teyla, and I could see the same thing happening in "The Queen" - I had this idea that Atlantis would try subverting a Wraith Queen...
Now, I'm only mildly worried. *g* My main concern is that Teyla will end up as a victim character needing to be saved (again).
I'd love it if the cavalry came too late, and found Teyla and Todd waiting for them after everything. "You're too late for the action. We dealt with it all." "But we worried about you!" "Your worry is appreciated but unnecessary." "So I see."
(Hey, Sheppard got to save himself in Common Ground. Why can't Teyla?)
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I can't remember the precise context, but I believe she implied that, to Teyla, John was the attractive but different, while Kanaan was the safe and familiar.
I agree. Kanaan is a childhood friend, someone safe who is Athosian and lives outside Atlantis where I am sure Teyla tries to escape from for obvious reasons from time to time. Kanaan has 'the gift' thus shares a rare experience with her..its not a big math problem to see them enjoying each other's company, but is this was such an important love that she kept it to herself.
My problem with the whole Teyla and Michael thing is that she becomes an instant 'victim' whenever he's involved which irks me to no end. He's kidnapped her what? Three freaking times? Sigh.
I agree with you about the possible pitfalls of the eppy, if there is trouble let he get herself out of it!
Of course my dream hope for the eppy involved the Team being captured and the only way to rescue them involved an idea of Teyla's and insert your imagination based on the name of the eppy. Hell, I'd love to see an eppy where she's the one to rescue the others period.
But I'd settle for a John and Teyla survive some time of situation on the run and do so convincingly with act/adv elements. They can even be captured and escape. I guess I'll stick to fanfic. :D
And all this makes me think of an ad: "Instant slut! Just add Sheppard!"
I've mainly read you fanfic so I'm not sure what your views are about Jophn's love life. But I've always seen John as sleeping with one person that we've been shown and that was Teer because he was lonely and after six months really thought he was stuck there.
I saw Chya's encounter as sharing energy, of essence. And I seriously doubt that John slept with that idiot in the 'Tower' once he found out all she wanted to do was have his kid. TBTB like to stick John with any slinky woman they can because he's the lead, but to be honest its been what four years? I'd be scared if the guy didn't have a sex life, which of course means that I think Teyla is allowed to have more then one relationship in the same time period as is any otther person on Atlantis. At least John's ex-wife seemed 'real' to me and I enjoyed the actress that played her, however we won't talk about Larrin....lol
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I presumed he slept with Chaya (Sanctuary) and Teer (Epiphany). I haven't seen the Tower, but I understand that there's an epilogue in which he tells Elizabeth he didn't sleep with Mara.
Larrin seems more of an obvious challenge - sexy alien chick who has an adversarial relationship with John. I think that most of the enjoyment out of that relationship (their enjoyment, not the audience's) is in the pursuit, chase, and challenge, not in the actual relationship.
Teyla, however, I see more as John's touchstone, someone with whom he shares more of the facets of who he is than he does with other women, and who he trusts emotionally (something that he doesn't really do with any other guys except Ronon). And that can easily move into the 'love' scenario for me.
I had some thoughts on how Teyla sees her relationship with John, but they're eluding me right now... I filed them somewhere in the back of my memory and I can't easily recall them.
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I have to agree with you on both comments. There's physical relationships and allowing a person close enough to you to share your feelings.
Intimacy vs affection/satisfaction.
no subject
Word. That place is so bad at keeping people in their (separate) happy ponds.
pairing her up with Sheppard now will look sexist and racist
O rly? And what about pairing her up with Rodney, or Carson, or Zelenka? For that matter, Kanaan was kind of white-ish, was that racist? (Retro-active writing, yes. Racist? Not so much.)
I'd like to see the thread they were responding to, since these things tend to spiral out of sanity with lots of group help. Do you have a link?
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*pets*
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That was some prize special thinking right there. Racism and sexism? How did this person even go there? (And you know me, if I thought it was, I'd be on it in a hot minute with some serious analysis).
The only time we've seen Teyla be skeeved out by John was in Conversion and it was contextual. Other than that, they've both done the dance back and forth but nothing inappropriate.
What we know of Kanaan is this: she's known him since they were kids and yes, she cares for him. That's it. Heck, we didn't even know, or were given to believe, that Teyla was seeing her folks on a regular basis. Ronon knew but not John and Rodney (boo, for no slice of life stuff on SGA because really...).
Teyla hooking up with John makes her a slut? Um no. We haven't heard anything on the ship front and after Kindred pt. 2, there may not be anything left of Kanaan to save. He's been changed into a hybrid by Michael. If by chance Teyla and John somehow come together in the aftermath of all this? It won't be the first time that two really good friends came together first in comfort and then in a growing deep regard and love.
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I'm wondering how much of it has to do with Mallozzi's denial that the Atlantis expedition has any hint of colonialism in its attitudes to other cultures.
You know what this made me think of? The "Zoe/Wash = abusive relationship" rant by the chicky the other week. Where there was no actual proof of abusiveness, just a black woman hooked up with a white man.
I suspect that Kanaan is being billed as The Best Man For Teyla partly because he gets Teyla out of John's orbit in the same way that some people were all over Teyla/Ronon.
It won't be the first time that two really good friends came together first in comfort and then in a growing deep regard and love.
See, this? I'd love this. I doubt TPTB could do this, but if they could, I'd love it.
no subject
1. Why Teyla becomes a 'slut' if she pursues another man other than Kanaan? Just because a woman has a child with one man who she loved, is she never supposed to find happiness again once losing him? She's supposed to be alone until she dies???
2. Almost all of the times she's been paired with John, she's freaked out in a bad way...okay, I must be having a dull moment, since I don't recall any canon pairing for John and Teyla apart from that time he tried to make her is mate whilst turning into an Iratus bug. Once more with feeling - "Subtext =/= Canon".
3. Pairing Teyla and John up would be 'sexist and racist'. I'd really like to know the context in which this is meant because my mind keeps supplying an inference by the OP that there is something wrong with interracial relationships, which is inherently racist in itself.
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2. If I had to pick another two 'shippy moments' for John and Teyla, I'd go with the moment after the headtouch in 'Return I' when John murmurs "Take care," to Teyla. The words are a private message he shares with Teyla that he doesn't share with Ronon - not even a grip of forearms and an injunction to look after himself, which I would have expected.
The other one would be 'Doppelganger' before the hug, when John gets up off his bed to go to Teyla. The hug itself is one friend to another and shows John's difficulty with closeness on an emotional-physical level. But John going to see Teyla when he's not sure if she'll even want to see him - that says "moving outside of my emotional comfort zone in a very confronting, very personal way" to me. John stretches himself physically for his team - no probs; but in this situation, he steps outside of familiar emotional space for Teyla. I can't, offhand, recall him doing that for anyone else in the show.
Not exactly shippy moments, but then, I have unusual ideas of what is 'shippy'. *g*
3. Yeah, I hearkened back to "a relationship between a white man and a black woman must be abusive" c/o that person who ranted about Firefly and Joss Whedon's wife.
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Could be a lot worse? ^^;;
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Just let it roll off you, man. Take Teyla's lead and meditate
on the Supreme Hotness of Shepparduntil you feel better. *G*no subject
there is a reason i avoid all message boards, except for one and that one is unrelated to fandom. everyone is made of stupid.