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I've wanted to get this out for a week, but I thought I'd wait until things cooled down a little - and until the thoughts in my head had a chance to settle down. I think they're all sorted out now.
The Kiss
Am I the only person in the fandom who is going to call this the 'not-Shep/not-Weir' kiss? Because it was neither Sheppard nor Weir doing the kissing - or even choosing who was going to kiss who.
From what I saw, it was Phoebus who chose Sheppard to be Thalen's host. I took it to be primarily on the grounds that Sheppard's knowledge would make him a dangerous 'enemy-ally' (as Thalen, who Phoebus intended to fight) but a worse 'enemy-enemy' (as Sheppard, who would fight Phoebus).
And the kiss seemed to be part of this whole UST-challenge thing that Phoebus and Thalen had going, not any residual thought-feeling-desire on the part of either Shep or Liz. Shep looked about as enthusiastic at playing the part of 'husband to the alien who's imprinting Liz' as he did at discovering he was going to go bug-nuts in 'Conversion'; Liz's sink into the bed at the end suggests she wishes the damn thing had never happened.
...
Am I missing something?
The Confession
Uh, under duress, peoples! Thalen would say anything to keep his life at that point - wouldn't you? However, the fact that he chose to pick the "he cares about you more than you know" to say on top of "You kill me, you're killing him [Shep]" indicates that Thalen (and therefore probably Shep) thought that it might stay Teyla's hand. Which suggests that Thalen (and Shep) thought there was something there.
Except that Teyla isn't encouraging Shep. She doesn't encourage him after this ep, she didn't encourage him after 'Conversion'. I don't think Teyla's interested in John that way right now. It's a possibility, but it's not anything she wants at this moment.
Which says to me that if anyone's interested in anyone else, it's Shep who's interested in Teyla, but Teyla isn't interested back.
This seems to be reflected by the actors: Joe Flanigan says there's emotional tension between John and Teyla, but Rachel Luttrell doesn't seem to have a relationship preference for Teyla at this point.
Final Pairing Thoughts
None of this affects fanon, the pairings I like, or anyone's enjoyment of the show, unless you have to have your pairing canon. This is just the way I'm reading the episode cues.
The Kiss
Am I the only person in the fandom who is going to call this the 'not-Shep/not-Weir' kiss? Because it was neither Sheppard nor Weir doing the kissing - or even choosing who was going to kiss who.
From what I saw, it was Phoebus who chose Sheppard to be Thalen's host. I took it to be primarily on the grounds that Sheppard's knowledge would make him a dangerous 'enemy-ally' (as Thalen, who Phoebus intended to fight) but a worse 'enemy-enemy' (as Sheppard, who would fight Phoebus).
And the kiss seemed to be part of this whole UST-challenge thing that Phoebus and Thalen had going, not any residual thought-feeling-desire on the part of either Shep or Liz. Shep looked about as enthusiastic at playing the part of 'husband to the alien who's imprinting Liz' as he did at discovering he was going to go bug-nuts in 'Conversion'; Liz's sink into the bed at the end suggests she wishes the damn thing had never happened.
...
Am I missing something?
The Confession
Uh, under duress, peoples! Thalen would say anything to keep his life at that point - wouldn't you? However, the fact that he chose to pick the "he cares about you more than you know" to say on top of "You kill me, you're killing him [Shep]" indicates that Thalen (and therefore probably Shep) thought that it might stay Teyla's hand. Which suggests that Thalen (and Shep) thought there was something there.
Except that Teyla isn't encouraging Shep. She doesn't encourage him after this ep, she didn't encourage him after 'Conversion'. I don't think Teyla's interested in John that way right now. It's a possibility, but it's not anything she wants at this moment.
Which says to me that if anyone's interested in anyone else, it's Shep who's interested in Teyla, but Teyla isn't interested back.
This seems to be reflected by the actors: Joe Flanigan says there's emotional tension between John and Teyla, but Rachel Luttrell doesn't seem to have a relationship preference for Teyla at this point.
Final Pairing Thoughts
None of this affects fanon, the pairings I like, or anyone's enjoyment of the show, unless you have to have your pairing canon. This is just the way I'm reading the episode cues.
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If I'm pushed, I'll admit I see more between Shep and Weir, but I think that's just the natural chemistry between the actors. And overall, it's Weir I'm in love with.
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You are probably right about the Teyla/Shep thing as well.
Its hard to discern 'ship on Stargate. Mostly because there is probably cannon evidence for shepard/everyone...I sometimes wonder what the writers are thinking!
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Well, in Atlantis, evidence exists for just about any pairing where the characters have had interaction with each other. Technically, you can build a case on characters as long as they've exchanged words.
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The Shep!Kisses really strike me as more along the lines of that episode of Star Trek Voyager where Paris breaks Warp 10 and starts turning into a gecko, so he kidnaps Jayneway and takes her past warp 10 as well so he'll have a mate. (I contrast this to the excellently painful episode of TNG where Crusher and Ricard get those mind link things and STILL decide not to sleep with one another.)
I would really like another plot device now. So far this season we've had Shep fall in love with several alien girls and kiss two members of his team while decidedly not himself.
Dear Stargate Atlantis Bigwigs,
You don't have to keep reminding us that Shep is teh hawt. We've sorta picked it up all by ourselves!
Love,
Kate
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Damn. Now I have to write that meta on the Stargate series as keeping the status quo, compared with BSG which is about constant change.
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Uh, under duress, peoples! Thalen would say anything to keep his life at that point - wouldn't you? However, the fact that he chose to pick the "he cares about you more than you know" to say on top of "You kill me, you're killing him [Shep]" indicates that Thalen (and therefore probably Shep) thought that it might stay Teyla's hand. Which suggests that Thalen (and Shep) thought there was something there.
I keep thinking about the look that Teyla had when not!Shep rolled out the caring comment. I interpreted her look as, "You ass, rolling around in my friend's head. Not cool!" That and her frustration of being stuck between two people she cares about very much: John and Elizabeth was really evident.
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To me, Teyla seemed, if not exactly nonplussed, certainly like she didn't need this now - and you're right, she was more concerned about the situation and how it involved her friends.
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Nope, I'm not either cause I was saying it as soon as I heard the kiss was possessed by two people. If you count that as a pairing point, then you might as well count the one in Conversion AND the one in Duet because all three of those had a twist.
I don't think Teyla's interested in John that way right now. It's a possibility, but it's not anything she wants at this moment.
Which says to me that if anyone's interested in anyone else, it's Shep who's interested in Teyla, but Teyla isn't interested back.
OMG THANK-YOU! Just...thank-you. I thought I was the only one who saw this. I was JUST telling a friend this about a week ago. I always give "WTF?" faces to Shweir cause that's still a one-sided-from-Weir pairing if I've ever seen one, but at the same time Sheyla is kinda one sided too. It's like I was telling someone else a while back, I felt like in the first season they were kinda shoving Teyla with Sheppard because they weren't entirely sure what to do with her character (much like I feel they are doing with Weir now), but the funny thing is she is so independent of him that it kinda backfired. I think if she really wanted to she could let down that guard, but then that issue of just how close is she going to get to these people comes up. It's one thing to stay with them while leaving your people behind to help out, but to get romantically involved with one of them is another. In the future perhaps, but right now? Eeehhhh.
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No. Actually Sheppard/Weir fans have been calling it this for a while. I knew about this episode months ago, and those who liked spoilers were well aware it wasn't actually John or Elizabeth doing the kissing.
None of this affects fanon, the pairings I like, or anyone's enjoyment of the show, unless you have to have your pairing canon. This is just the way I'm reading the episode cues.
Nice to see someone else who feels this way. Those that ship each pairing are taking away something different than the other, and that's the way it's going to be as long as we have these writers for the show. They've admitted they enjoy pitting one "shipper" group against the other.
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Ironically, many of them are the ones who dismiss Thalen's statement to Teyla that John cares for her more than she knows.
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Not in the S/W groups I follow. But it's similar to those S/T fans who believe the kiss between John and Teyla in "Conversion" was a true expression of love, and not the animal quality of the bug he was turning into showing his "alpha male" dominance of the situation.
You see? Either side sees what they WANT to see. That's how shippers operate. For every action you give me about S/T, I can give you a reason for it, or a motivation behind it. And probably visa versa.
Ironically, many of them are the ones who dismiss Thalen's statement to Teyla that John cares for her more than she knows.
Again, not in the S/W circles I follow. Personally, I dismiss both the S/W kiss as being alien-influenced, and that it was Thalan in John's body claiming he cares for Teyla more than she knows, not John.
Thalan would have said anything to keep her from killing him. Teyla saw it for what it was: desperation. And after it was all over, even John said Teyla still didn't believe the alien influence was gone. Having said that, John does care for Teyla. No one can dispute that. However, it's a shippers POV as to what that level is.
Amusingly, while the majority of S/W people are willing to acknowledge they see where S/T shippers can be coming from in given situations to lead to their S/T feelings/observations, every S/T post I've read, both on LJ and on the GW forums, claim endlessly to never see anything remotely shippy at all between S/W.
One could debate it endlessly but, in the end, it's just one person's POV and, frankly, a fruitless argument that ends up doing nothing but causing hard feelings between the shipping groups, and pleasing the hell out of TPTB, who adore to see these shipper wars go on.
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Again with the irony. I've heard this claim from both sides of the shipping fence. Repeatedly.
in the end, it's just one person's POV
Indeed.
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Meaning what? That S/W shippers are somehow more magnanimous? ;)
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Perhaps. Or maybe just more open minded. :)
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Except that would be manifestly unfair to the Shep/Weir fans I know who don't go around lumping 'the S/T fans' into a single amorphous entity the better to make what I feel are rather nastily superior comments about pairings and the people who like them.
So I think that's enough on this topic, thank you. You've made your position, attitude, and mentality more than clear in your last few comments.
Yes,
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Oh, I see. So the snide and pissy comments sent MY way are justifiable, and that I'm commenting on them to defend my position bugs you. And this comment proves my point.
You've made your position, attitude, and mentality more than clear in your last few comments.
Don't allow comments to an vaguely challenging and antagonist posting such as this, (esp. if it ends up in SGA newsletter) if you don't expect to get rebuttals or additional comments. Esp since the world of Atlantis fandom, believe it or not, doesn't revolve around your ship or mine.
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I stated my experience within the SGA fandom and asked if there was anyone else with my view out there. You stated that your experience differed and then have repeatedly implied that your pairing and the shippers are superior to the opposition purely on the basis on that pairing.
Frankly, I couldn't care less what you ship. You could ship Heimdall/Wraith for all I care. However, the instant you start classifying people on what they ship is the instant I begin to back away.
That's my issue with you; not your opinions but how you've stated them in your comments.
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Then if you are concerned with HOW people state their comments, why didn't you publicly take the other poster to task and only me, esp. if, as you say here, you don't like others "classifying" people. You showed your own bigotry in the matter by not critizing the other poster when the first pissy comment was posted at me, which merely showed me you aren't what you want others to think you are.
For someone who doesn't care what people ship, you took an obvious side very quickly.
Enjoy your ship.
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And both you and she got the smackdown in my comment as well. She's stopped. You haven't.
And I will enjoy my ships, thanks - all of them.
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*poke!*
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It's a pity that this sensible comment got ignored in the argument, because the only winners that come out of ship-wars, fights,scraps are PTB. I for one wouldn't like to see them win.
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There are many commenters here and elsewhere with whom I've disagreed cheerfully and civilly, but when people start claiming superiority and classifying others according to their pairing preferences, I tend to become annoyed.
Incidentally, I also disagreed with the idea of TPTB setting us to fighting among ourselves; which is why the 'sensible comment' got ignored.
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How people play in fandom? Well it puts me off 'shipping just about anyone in Atlantis sadly and I find myself not really caring that much these days who Sheppard ends up with. I've come to the conclusion that the character of Sheppard is bordering on the puerile these days with little in the way of emotional maturity (hence the repeated Kirking), so I don't think he deserves either Weir or Teyla. I find I only like Sheppard with Weir in well-written fanfic when the character is given more maturity. On the show, I'm afraid it does look one-sided Weir which pisses me off because I think it does her character no favours at all. To me, on the show, Sheppard and Teyla hardly look interested in each other at all, and I find myself thinking that of course he'd find her attractive, she's very lovely (both Weir and Teyla are lovely in my opinion), so that's a given, however, I don't see anything past that at all. My fear is that PTB will treat S/T like Sam and Jack. Periods of looong drought, with scenes only the most adamant shippers can see, punctuated with the occasional "shippy moment". Which isn't going to convince me and a host of other folks.
I like to see different points of view (there's an interesting conversation going on below about Teyla which is a view I hadnt really considered before). Unfortunately, doing that I've had to read some really terrible things (particularly) said about Weir and Ronon by some S/T shippers (calling Weir "The Old Lady" repeatedly is a common one) where as the worst I've read for Teyla on "the other side" is that her clothes should cover her up and she should play less to the male demographic. This isn't about labelling particular fans it's just about observation, and my observations at that it has to be said.
To go back to your original post - I cannot for the life of me see, how if the Sheppard/Liz kiss was totally under alien influence and therefore not them, how the comment to Teyla could be construed as being different. Both are under alien influence, both are ambigious, both could be construed as being shippy. I think you'd find that most S/W fans were pleased they got a kiss between the two characters (whoever they were) so it could be used on artwork/on icons and stuff.
Sorry this ended up a bit longer than I meant.
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However, the argument as to which set of fans is better-behaved is always going to be subjective to the individual making the statement.
Regarding the kiss: it was from alien to alien - with both Shep and Liz under the influence, which meant that it would have had meaning to Thalen and Phoebus, but not necessarily to Shep and Liz.
The confession was from alien to non-alien, which meant that it might have had significance to Thalen and Shep; but in order for the appeal to have even a hope of working, Thalen (and Shep) had to believe that Teyla might be influenced by it beyond her basic reluctance to kill a team-mate and friend.
That is why I see the forced confession differently.
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However, that's all conjecture. The fact that the line was written in there to start with, meant that the writer had wanted to explore something with respect to Sheppard and Teyla. The fact it was explicitly "He cares more about you than you know" suggests that romance was being touched upon. The writer could have found other ways to explore S/T I'm sure (although I could be attributing more talent to him than he deserves to have). So, IMO, the mere presence of that line was S/T shippy in some way.
My main fear is that they'll do S/T like they did Sam and Jack, periods of drought with scenes that only the most dedicated S/T shipper can see anything in, followed by "bashed over the head" clunky S/T moments that will annoy/send into a coma non S/T fans. It would be far better if they just admitted defeat with the shippy thing and just got on with better stories. All in IMO of course.
Finally, I hate badly behaved shippers most of all, no matter who they ship for. I hate it when they get militant and call other shippers names, I hate it when they get militant and want to write to the PTB to push their ship, or they vilify an actor because he doesn't share their point of view, and I hate it when they just can't ship for their pairing and let others see what they want to see. It starts to put me off the show. Luckily, most shippers I know seem to be fairly sensible people, certainly all the ones on my flist are.
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And I'd say the line was definitely intended to highlight the S/T relationship - given that the big Sam/Jack hingepoint in SG-1is "because I care about her more than I'm supposed to."
But, yeah, I get your concerns over TPTB's ability to screw up relationships. It scares me, too.
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What about Teyla just feeling, like, pity for John? Like, it's possible that Thelean was speaking true, and that it's entirely one-sided, and that she respects/likes him as a commander/leader, but has no interest in him romantically? Totally possible. So I guess I agree with you on that one.
BUT!
Why? Why is she not interested? She isn't betrothed or married to someone else, she's not been showed to be a maiden, etc. Hmmm. That's the interesting bit. Not to say that John isn't, like, irresistable or whatever, but still. He's hot enough! ;)
Of course, it's Friday night, and I'm totally tipsy, so. ;)
Here by way of
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I dunno, maybe there is someone in her past that we don't know about.
Also, things between her and Shep are complicated, and if they were to get involved romantically it would get even more complicated. I think that Teyla really doesn't want complications in her life right now.
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Don't take this the wrong way, but I couldn't resist.
Why would she want Sheppard when she's got that big hunk of burnin' love Ronon? I wouldn't want Sheppard if Ronon was around. ;)
More seriously (barely), Sheppard doesn't look like he wants relationships, he seems to spend most of his time fending off/being chased/snogging alien chicks. If I were Teyla I wouldn't touch him with a bargepole (not without a few medical tests)
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Unfortunately, John is no Jack O'Neill. That's why I prefer not to get involved in actual ships on the show when it comes to him.
Fanfic I read and write, Shep/Weir, and that's because *I* have a morbid attachment to Elizabeth, and I'm more comfortable writing her than Teyla. Not because I'll ever want to see them get together.
I trust Elizabeth and Teyla to be smarter than that. I, myself, wouldn't want to sleep with him if I were one of them. I would jump at the occasion if I were one of the alien chicks. I'd make sure to wake up and leave before he does, though. Maybe leave him tied to the bed.
John Sheppard is a one night man, and our heroines know it. He's trouble with a capital T and complication with a capital C.
And btw, looks rather pathetic next to Ronon :P
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I found Teyla quite easy to write, I wrote a fic a while back and I wrote a S/T chapter, not shippy but friendshippy. She's a bit of a blank slate i have to say, so I was able to project onto her what I wanted the character to be without sporking "canon" too much.
I also wrote a fic based which was based on Shep and his little "friends" and our heroines. I'm proud particularly of the first scene.
http://astropoet.livejournal.com/130736.html#cutid1
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Liz might be one-sidedly interested in Shep, but that could also pass for friendly concern. Teyla seems to like Shep as a friend and colleague, but isn't about to take anything further than their sparring bouts.
And the two women seem quite friendly, even if they don't have a lot of interaction.
I have problems with Teyla/Ronon as romance. I keep seeing a sibling vibe.
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However, Weir and Teyla do seem quite friendly, but more scenes between them, even a whole eppy would be great.
I can see where the R/T vibe could be construed as sibling, and since it's not defined then we're free to see what we want. What is great about their relationship is that they seem to bring each other to life, whether romantically or not. I found Teyla to be of little interest last season, but Ronon seems to have given the character an opportunity to open up in the scenes between them.
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It's made me wonder...am I the only one who thinks that most of the alien *women* we've seen in SGA show very little emotion? Sora showed a whole range. But Chaya, Teer, and Teyla have such excellent poker faces that often I can't tell if they're feeling anything. They don't give any of it away and they're the major alien women who've interacted with John. Okay, the blonde girl in Tower showed a LOT of emotions but she's the only non-Earthling John has kissed who showed much.
Yes, I think Elizabeth has shown a lot of emotion--but not a full range in front of John, and she's not alien so I'm not really counting her.
There've been other alien females on the show that seemed almost wooden they were so reserved. Marin, is one.
I don't know what my point is, except that maybe that's how some of the actresses decided to show the "alien" quality of the characters--ala Mr. Spock.
Am I completely misreading that?
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I especially love the quote above beacause I think that extends to not only Teyla's potential romantic interests but also how she interacts with people in general. She's nice and somewhat trusting, but she's never going to let you in.
Which is frustrating if you are trying to get to know her. I think that's why so many people think she's cold or wooden, she doesn't let other people know how she is feeling and she doesn't want people to get too close. </>spoilers</> (I haven't actually seen the epi, but I've spoiled myself to the fullest) In Critical Mass, where Charin dies, Teyla says something to the fact that she's alone now, and when I read that it really stuck me that she doesn't have anyone that she is close too, none in the Athosians and not in the Atlantis expedition.</>spoilers<>
It also raises the issue of how Teyla views the Atlantis expedition. Are they friends or are they just Allies against the wraith? We know that Rodney and John definitely view thier team as their family. Ronon too. But what about Teyla? How does she feel about her teammates. Are they her new family? She definitely cares for them, but how much? As much as they seem to care for her? Or maybe not. Thoughts?
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Along with this, it could be very, very telling for us as an audience to take note of exactly where and when she lets these emotions slip. A small hesitation or note of panic in her voice could be on the same scale as a much larger outburst from someone whose emotions are much closer to the surface, say Rodney. Now, maybe it's just the shipper in me, but I've noticed many of these "emotional glimpses" from Teyla are directed toward Sheppard. I like to point to her material in "Conversion" especially, where we see almost more emotion from Teyla than we have in a single episode to date. That's not to say that she is incapable of showing emotion toward anyone else other than Sheppard, but it seems to me that we're kind of supposed to notice her reactions and emotions toward him.
Don't know if that made any sense at all.... :)
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It's why Gift is one of my all time fave episodes because it gives a glimpse into Teyla's charcter and reveals her control freak tendencies. I mean, coming out of a nightmare she was still so controlled and even though throughout the episode we see cracks in her mask, she still keeps it together, and baring her little admission of nightmares to Shep, she doesn't let people in. Even in the sessions with the psychologist, she holds back.
I especially liked this part of your comment:
She has learned the value of separation, of distance, and of reservation. She has become an expert at burying her emotions, bottling up feelings, and keeping a carefully constructed mask in place no matter what happens.
But I can't help but wonder if it is not just her background that makes her wear her mask ALL THE TIME but maybe also a really bad experience regarding her letting someone in and either they hurt her or the left or died.
You know how fandom always goes on on how John has commitement/intimacy issues? I think Teyla is the one with the intimacy issues.
Also, while I am a Shep/Teyla shipper (and a Rodney/Teyla shipper), I actually think that she is a bit more reserved with Shep most of the time.
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I don't think John has committment or intimacy issues so much as abandonment issues.
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Those too!
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"She's definitely a control freak and that control is mostly directed towards herself."
How right you are. She even says this to Shep in the first episode when she tells him that she and her people do their best to control everything in their lives that they can since so much of who they are is taken away from them by the Wraith. Teyla is the living embodiment of that, and I think that her position as a leader and example to the Athosians only increases this need to be in control and show this control to others. I think she has come to value this aspect of herself, and wouldn't quite know what to do with herself if she had to let her emotions constantly run free. I don't think she's the sort of person that has to always be in control of others, but you were definitely right when you said that she feels she always needs to be in control of herself. I think this attitude is partly because she feels more comfortable with this control and partly because she feels that it is her duty and obligation as a leader to have this emotional hold on herself.
"But I can't help but wonder if it is not just her background that makes her wear her mask ALL THE TIME but maybe also a really bad experience regarding her letting someone in and either they hurt her or the left or died."
Wow. This is a really, really good idea. I hope we get to look more into all of the characters' backgrounds next season, particularly Teyla's. I think that she harbors a lot of bad experiences and pain, and that not all of it is due to the influence of the Wraith and the loss of her father. She is such a closed book, that I wonder what it will take for her to open up to someone about a part of her past and just how much she will reveal when that time comes. She has clearly had a very painful past, but I feel that it might not all be explained by the most obvious reasons. This is a very interesting concept and could well explain why she feels the need to maintain such control over herself, emotionally and physically. This would also lend itself very well to why she seems to distance herself from those that she is close to -- Sheppard being one of them. She does have intimacy issues, and she does have difficulty getting truly comfortable with someone else and recieving their affection in return. Again, hopefully something that we'll see addressed next season.
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I really hope that they do explore Teyla's character in S3, though at this point I don't really have much faith in TPTB.
In the meantime, I hope that fic writers, *cough*Tielan*cough* could come up with and write some backstory for Teyla. Pretty please with a cherry on top?
Also about her keeping herself and especially her emotions in check, it's a beautiful contrast to Rodney. Rodney wears his heart on his sleeve and does let his emotions guide him whereas Teyla keeps hers bottled up inside and tries so hard to choose with her head rather than her heart. It doesn't always work though.
It's part of why I just adore interactions between Rodney and Teyla. They're just so different but I think they have/could have a really special, tender relationship (friendship or otherwise) and she does understand him.
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