pairing thoughts on 'The Long Goodbye'

[tielan]

I've wanted to get this out for a week, but I thought I'd wait until things cooled down a little - and until the thoughts in my head had a chance to settle down. I think they're all sorted out now.

The Kiss

Am I the only person in the fandom who is going to call this the 'not-Shep/not-Weir' kiss? Because it was neither Sheppard nor Weir doing the kissing - or even choosing who was going to kiss who.

From what I saw, it was Phoebus who chose Sheppard to be Thalen's host. I took it to be primarily on the grounds that Sheppard's knowledge would make him a dangerous 'enemy-ally' (as Thalen, who Phoebus intended to fight) but a worse 'enemy-enemy' (as Sheppard, who would fight Phoebus).

And the kiss seemed to be part of this whole UST-challenge thing that Phoebus and Thalen had going, not any residual thought-feeling-desire on the part of either Shep or Liz. Shep looked about as enthusiastic at playing the part of 'husband to the alien who's imprinting Liz' as he did at discovering he was going to go bug-nuts in 'Conversion'; Liz's sink into the bed at the end suggests she wishes the damn thing had never happened.

...

Am I missing something?

The Confession

Uh, under duress, peoples! Thalen would say anything to keep his life at that point - wouldn't you? However, the fact that he chose to pick the "he cares about you more than you know" to say on top of "You kill me, you're killing him [Shep]" indicates that Thalen (and therefore probably Shep) thought that it might stay Teyla's hand. Which suggests that Thalen (and Shep) thought there was something there.

Except that Teyla isn't encouraging Shep. She doesn't encourage him after this ep, she didn't encourage him after 'Conversion'. I don't think Teyla's interested in John that way right now. It's a possibility, but it's not anything she wants at this moment.

Which says to me that if anyone's interested in anyone else, it's Shep who's interested in Teyla, but Teyla isn't interested back.

This seems to be reflected by the actors: Joe Flanigan says there's emotional tension between John and Teyla, but Rachel Luttrell doesn't seem to have a relationship preference for Teyla at this point.

Final Pairing Thoughts

None of this affects fanon, the pairings I like, or anyone's enjoyment of the show, unless you have to have your pairing canon. This is just the way I'm reading the episode cues.

Comments

[pixiesio.livejournal.com]

*nods in agreement to it all* :D

[snoggingpicard.livejournal.com]

Yup, yup, yup. If I've learned anything at all from Sg-1, I know that TPTB like to take this sort of thing nice and slow. I don't predict anything really definitive as far as shipping goes for a while yet.

[krazykitkat.livejournal.com]

Totally agree with all of it. I watched it yesterday and I thought it was a pretty any ship free episode. And totally right, Shep didn't seem enthused about it, and Liz did seem very embarrassed at the end.

If I'm pushed, I'll admit I see more between Shep and Weir, but I think that's just the natural chemistry between the actors. And overall, it's Weir I'm in love with.

[tielan]

See, I can't even say it was 'ship-free'. That Thalen even thought to use the "he cares about you more than you know" line to Teyla suggests that Shep likes Teyla. I qualify that as ship. It's not reciprocal ship (she's not about to run off and have his Ancient-gene babies), but it's ship.

[million-moments.livejournal.com]

When I saw the kiss, I couldn't understand why all the sheppard/weir shippers were excited either...It wasn't them at all. It has been likened to being taken over by the Goa'uld...that is not going to be associated with happy memories...

You are probably right about the Teyla/Shep thing as well.

Its hard to discern 'ship on Stargate. Mostly because there is probably cannon evidence for shepard/everyone...I sometimes wonder what the writers are thinking!

[tielan]

The Goa'uld thing - that was the comparison I was thinking of!

Well, in Atlantis, evidence exists for just about any pairing where the characters have had interaction with each other. Technically, you can build a case on characters as long as they've exchanged words.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

The thing that makes me a little bitter, is that this is the THIRD Kiss Under The Influence this season. It's getting a teeny bit tired. I didn't see any chemistry when Rodney kissed Carson, nor when Shep kissed Teyla, nor when "Elizabeth" kissed "Sheppard". At least in Rodney's case, the person in his head ACTUALLY PURSUED Carson afterwards.

The Shep!Kisses really strike me as more along the lines of that episode of Star Trek Voyager where Paris breaks Warp 10 and starts turning into a gecko, so he kidnaps Jayneway and takes her past warp 10 as well so he'll have a mate. (I contrast this to the excellently painful episode of TNG where Crusher and Ricard get those mind link things and STILL decide not to sleep with one another.)

I would really like another plot device now. So far this season we've had Shep fall in love with several alien girls and kiss two members of his team while decidedly not himself.

Dear Stargate Atlantis Bigwigs,

You don't have to keep reminding us that Shep is teh hawt. We've sorta picked it up all by ourselves!

Love,
Kate

[tielan]

It is a bit annoying that Stargate can't give us an ordinary kiss between characters.

Damn. Now I have to write that meta on the Stargate series as keeping the status quo, compared with BSG which is about constant change.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

You are so right about so much of this. Watching TLG I was struck how non-shippy it was.*

Uh, under duress, peoples! Thalen would say anything to keep his life at that point - wouldn't you? However, the fact that he chose to pick the "he cares about you more than you know" to say on top of "You kill me, you're killing him [Shep]" indicates that Thalen (and therefore probably Shep) thought that it might stay Teyla's hand. Which suggests that Thalen (and Shep) thought there was something there.

I keep thinking about the look that Teyla had when not!Shep rolled out the caring comment. I interpreted her look as, "You ass, rolling around in my friend's head. Not cool!" That and her frustration of being stuck between two people she cares about very much: John and Elizabeth was really evident.

[tielan]

As I mentioned in another reply, I wouldn't say that it was non-shippy, just that the only indication of ship that I saw was from John to Teyla and it wasn't reciprocated.

To me, Teyla seemed, if not exactly nonplussed, certainly like she didn't need this now - and you're right, she was more concerned about the situation and how it involved her friends.

[princeali-m-fan.livejournal.com]

Am I the only person in the fandom who is going to call this the 'not-Shep/not-Weir' kiss? Because it was neither Sheppard nor Weir doing the kissing - or even choosing who was going to kiss who.

Nope, I'm not either cause I was saying it as soon as I heard the kiss was possessed by two people. If you count that as a pairing point, then you might as well count the one in Conversion AND the one in Duet because all three of those had a twist.

I don't think Teyla's interested in John that way right now. It's a possibility, but it's not anything she wants at this moment.

Which says to me that if anyone's interested in anyone else, it's Shep who's interested in Teyla, but Teyla isn't interested back.

OMG THANK-YOU! Just...thank-you. I thought I was the only one who saw this. I was JUST telling a friend this about a week ago. I always give "WTF?" faces to Shweir cause that's still a one-sided-from-Weir pairing if I've ever seen one, but at the same time Sheyla is kinda one sided too. It's like I was telling someone else a while back, I felt like in the first season they were kinda shoving Teyla with Sheppard because they weren't entirely sure what to do with her character (much like I feel they are doing with Weir now), but the funny thing is she is so independent of him that it kinda backfired. I think if she really wanted to she could let down that guard, but then that issue of just how close is she going to get to these people comes up. It's one thing to stay with them while leaving your people behind to help out, but to get romantically involved with one of them is another. In the future perhaps, but right now? Eeehhhh.

[pellmelody.livejournal.com]

Am I the only person in the fandom who is going to call this the 'not-Shep/not-Weir' kiss?

No. Actually Sheppard/Weir fans have been calling it this for a while. I knew about this episode months ago, and those who liked spoilers were well aware it wasn't actually John or Elizabeth doing the kissing.

None of this affects fanon, the pairings I like, or anyone's enjoyment of the show, unless you have to have your pairing canon. This is just the way I'm reading the episode cues.

Nice to see someone else who feels this way. Those that ship each pairing are taking away something different than the other, and that's the way it's going to be as long as we have these writers for the show. They've admitted they enjoy pitting one "shipper" group against the other.

[tielan]

I just seem to keep coming across people who aren't content to say "It's not John and Elizabeth, it's aliens in their bodies" but who have the need to insist that it is John and Elizabeth's "true love" showing through.

Ironically, many of them are the ones who dismiss Thalen's statement to Teyla that John cares for her more than she knows.

[pellmelody.livejournal.com]

I just seem to keep coming across people who aren't content to say "It's not John and Elizabeth, it's aliens in their bodies" but who have the need to insist that it is John and Elizabeth's "true love" showing through.

Not in the S/W groups I follow. But it's similar to those S/T fans who believe the kiss between John and Teyla in "Conversion" was a true expression of love, and not the animal quality of the bug he was turning into showing his "alpha male" dominance of the situation.

You see? Either side sees what they WANT to see. That's how shippers operate. For every action you give me about S/T, I can give you a reason for it, or a motivation behind it. And probably visa versa.

Ironically, many of them are the ones who dismiss Thalen's statement to Teyla that John cares for her more than she knows.

Again, not in the S/W circles I follow. Personally, I dismiss both the S/W kiss as being alien-influenced, and that it was Thalan in John's body claiming he cares for Teyla more than she knows, not John.

Thalan would have said anything to keep her from killing him. Teyla saw it for what it was: desperation. And after it was all over, even John said Teyla still didn't believe the alien influence was gone. Having said that, John does care for Teyla. No one can dispute that. However, it's a shippers POV as to what that level is.

Amusingly, while the majority of S/W people are willing to acknowledge they see where S/T shippers can be coming from in given situations to lead to their S/T feelings/observations, every S/T post I've read, both on LJ and on the GW forums, claim endlessly to never see anything remotely shippy at all between S/W.

One could debate it endlessly but, in the end, it's just one person's POV and, frankly, a fruitless argument that ends up doing nothing but causing hard feelings between the shipping groups, and pleasing the hell out of TPTB, who adore to see these shipper wars go on.

[tielan]

Amusingly...

Again with the irony. I've heard this claim from both sides of the shipping fence. Repeatedly.

in the end, it's just one person's POV

Indeed.

[allisnow.livejournal.com]

Amusingly, while the majority of S/W people are willing to acknowledge they see where S/T shippers can be coming from in given situations to lead to their S/T feelings/observations, every S/T post I've read, both on LJ and on the GW forums, claim endlessly to never see anything remotely shippy at all between S/W.

Meaning what? That S/W shippers are somehow more magnanimous? ;)

[astropoet.livejournal.com]

One could debate it endlessly but, in the end, it's just one person's POV and, frankly, a fruitless argument that ends up doing nothing but causing hard feelings between the shipping groups, and pleasing the hell out of TPTB, who adore to see these shipper wars go on.

It's a pity that this sensible comment got ignored in the argument, because the only winners that come out of ship-wars, fights,scraps are PTB. I for one wouldn't like to see them win.

[queenofalostart.livejournal.com]

So, random, but:

What about Teyla just feeling, like, pity for John? Like, it's possible that Thelean was speaking true, and that it's entirely one-sided, and that she respects/likes him as a commander/leader, but has no interest in him romantically? Totally possible. So I guess I agree with you on that one.

BUT!

Why? Why is she not interested? She isn't betrothed or married to someone else, she's not been showed to be a maiden, etc. Hmmm. That's the interesting bit. Not to say that John isn't, like, irresistable or whatever, but still. He's hot enough! ;)

Of course, it's Friday night, and I'm totally tipsy, so. ;)

Here by way of sga_newsletter, btw.

[goddess09807.livejournal.com]

Why? Why is she not interested? She isn't betrothed or married to someone else, she's not been showed to be a maiden, etc. Hmmm. That's the interesting bit. Not to say that John isn't, like, irresistable or whatever, but still. He's hot enough! ;)

I dunno, maybe there is someone in her past that we don't know about.

Also, things between her and Shep are complicated, and if they were to get involved romantically it would get even more complicated. I think that Teyla really doesn't want complications in her life right now.

[astropoet.livejournal.com]

Why? Why is she not interested? She isn't betrothed or married to someone else, she's not been showed to be a maiden, etc. Hmmm. That's the interesting bit. Not to say that John isn't, like, irresistable or whatever, but still. He's hot enough! ;)

Don't take this the wrong way, but I couldn't resist.

Why would she want Sheppard when she's got that big hunk of burnin' love Ronon? I wouldn't want Sheppard if Ronon was around. ;)

More seriously (barely), Sheppard doesn't look like he wants relationships, he seems to spend most of his time fending off/being chased/snogging alien chicks. If I were Teyla I wouldn't touch him with a bargepole (not without a few medical tests)

[valeria-sg-1.livejournal.com]

Thank you for pointing out that the only thing Sheppard might have brought back through the Stargate is some kind of exotic STD!!!

Unfortunately, John is no Jack O'Neill. That's why I prefer not to get involved in actual ships on the show when it comes to him.
Fanfic I read and write, Shep/Weir, and that's because *I* have a morbid attachment to Elizabeth, and I'm more comfortable writing her than Teyla. Not because I'll ever want to see them get together.

I trust Elizabeth and Teyla to be smarter than that. I, myself, wouldn't want to sleep with him if I were one of them. I would jump at the occasion if I were one of the alien chicks. I'd make sure to wake up and leave before he does, though. Maybe leave him tied to the bed.

John Sheppard is a one night man, and our heroines know it. He's trouble with a capital T and complication with a capital C.
And btw, looks rather pathetic next to Ronon :P

[doxymom.livejournal.com]

This discussion is really interesting. You all bring up such great points.

It's made me wonder...am I the only one who thinks that most of the alien *women* we've seen in SGA show very little emotion? Sora showed a whole range. But Chaya, Teer, and Teyla have such excellent poker faces that often I can't tell if they're feeling anything. They don't give any of it away and they're the major alien women who've interacted with John. Okay, the blonde girl in Tower showed a LOT of emotions but she's the only non-Earthling John has kissed who showed much.

Yes, I think Elizabeth has shown a lot of emotion--but not a full range in front of John, and she's not alien so I'm not really counting her.

There've been other alien females on the show that seemed almost wooden they were so reserved. Marin, is one.

I don't know what my point is, except that maybe that's how some of the actresses decided to show the "alien" quality of the characters--ala Mr. Spock.

Am I completely misreading that?

[live-brave.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about the pairings. With the whole Shep/Teyla thing, I think there's an attraction there but I don't think either will be acting on it anytime soon. For Teyla, she's a woman whose people have been fighting for their survival for a long time. I think she's more focused on trying to beat the Wraith then start up a relationship with anyone, especially with someone not from around there, someone who might up and leave. If they beat the Wraith, who's to say that the Earthlings are going to hang around? I think she cares for John but this is someone who has lost nearly everyone she's ever cared for. It's self-preservation - she's not going to leave herself open to the possibility of being hurt again. She's uber-cautious, and who can blame her? Wow, that was long. :) Yeah, I may have thought about this before. :D

[goddess09807.livejournal.com]

Wow. That was beautiful and I completely agree. Especially about these parts:

especially with someone not from around there, someone who might up and leave.

It's self-preservation - she's not going to leave herself open to the possibility of being hurt again.

I especially love the quote above beacause I think that extends to not only Teyla's potential romantic interests but also how she interacts with people in general. She's nice and somewhat trusting, but she's never going to let you in.

Which is frustrating if you are trying to get to know her. I think that's why so many people think she's cold or wooden, she doesn't let other people know how she is feeling and she doesn't want people to get too close. </>spoilers</> (I haven't actually seen the epi, but I've spoiled myself to the fullest) In Critical Mass, where Charin dies, Teyla says something to the fact that she's alone now, and when I read that it really stuck me that she doesn't have anyone that she is close too, none in the Athosians and not in the Atlantis expedition.</>spoilers<>

It also raises the issue of how Teyla views the Atlantis expedition. Are they friends or are they just Allies against the wraith? We know that Rodney and John definitely view thier team as their family. Ronon too. But what about Teyla? How does she feel about her teammates. Are they her new family? She definitely cares for them, but how much? As much as they seem to care for her? Or maybe not. Thoughts?

[snoggingpicard.livejournal.com]

We were actually talking about this a bit over in Gateworld a week ago. I kind of feel that it is really difficult to compare anything that Teyla does or says or how she reacts to situations to the others on the base because of her upbringing and culture. She has learned the value of separation, of distance, and of reservation. She has become an expert at burying her emotions, bottling up feelings, and keeping a carefully constructed mask in place no matter what happens. I made the point that because of this, whenever her emotions do slip through we should really note it. Whenever she shows her fear or her anger or her sadness, I feel that these moments are so powerful and so overwhelming for her that they manage to slip past the mask that she works so hard to maintain.

Along with this, it could be very, very telling for us as an audience to take note of exactly where and when she lets these emotions slip. A small hesitation or note of panic in her voice could be on the same scale as a much larger outburst from someone whose emotions are much closer to the surface, say Rodney. Now, maybe it's just the shipper in me, but I've noticed many of these "emotional glimpses" from Teyla are directed toward Sheppard. I like to point to her material in "Conversion" especially, where we see almost more emotion from Teyla than we have in a single episode to date. That's not to say that she is incapable of showing emotion toward anyone else other than Sheppard, but it seems to me that we're kind of supposed to notice her reactions and emotions toward him.

Don't know if that made any sense at all.... :)