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*sighs*
I can see we're going to lose a lot of John/Teyla shippers this season.
And, you know, that depresses me far more than the Teyla/Kanaan relationship in the show right now.
I really rather like Teyla/Kanaan as it's been shown at this point. Heavy-handed, perhaps, but that's symptomatic of Stargate writing. I'm slightly terrified that they're going to Mess It All Up, of course, because, hey, Dwama Llama options.
But what I like about the Teyla/Kanaan vs. Teyla/John dynamics is that they show us a lot more about Teyla herself and who she sees herself to be. Her life has been a balance between the ordinary and the conflictual: living peacefully vs. the chaos of culling, her people's agrarian ways vs. Atlantis' technology, and most importantly, her desire to be with her people and her desire to be doing something bigger.
So it is with Kanaan (the supportive man in her life, able to step back and watch her go out) and John (the man who challenges her, who forces her out of some of her comfort zones). Teyla doesn't belong to her people, she doesn't belong to Atlantis. She's a divided character in terms of what she's doing: her past is her people, her present is Atlantis, her future...well, that depends on whether they beat the Wraith and the Asurans or not.
One reason I've always liked Teyla is because she's a "woman" character - a character who embodies a lot of the conflicts and biases and issues that women face - both in the show, and from the fandom. (I don't know if there's an accepted term for it in fannish meta-circles.)
From her clothing, to how she goes about questioning authority, to how she changes people's courses of action, to the divide between 'two sides' of her life... I won't say it's 'stereotypically female' but it does embody a lot of the angles and difficulties of women in the modern world.
The divide between the two sides of her life is what the Teyla/Kanaan and Teyla/John relationships represent to me. And both of them give insight into the kind of woman Teyla is: one who wants to make a difference to the universe herself, but knows that she has a life reliant on her; one who enjoys being 'at rest', but who also yearns for a challenge; one who feels the weight of balancing a child against a dangerous career and being unwilling to sacrifice either herself for her child's needs or her child for her own needs.
Kanaan might have been a hybrid in body (and we've still got a lot to learn about him before he becomes a 'real boy' and not just 'Teyla's house husband') but Teyla's a hybrid in soul. There's no "cure" for that.
Thinking it over, with this episode, I've shown myself to be primarily a Teyla-fan, not a John/Teyla-fan. John/Teyla is an acceptable sacrifice in the name of getting more insight into Teyla. Which I think we've been getting the last few episodes, quite pleasingly.
It's not as much as I'd like (I could go all Teyla, all the time), but it's more than I've been getting the last few seasons.
Right, so that morphed a little unexpectedly. You know when you start off at point A and then somehow ramble your way across to point B and are slightly surprised to have arrived?
I can see we're going to lose a lot of John/Teyla shippers this season.
And, you know, that depresses me far more than the Teyla/Kanaan relationship in the show right now.
I really rather like Teyla/Kanaan as it's been shown at this point. Heavy-handed, perhaps, but that's symptomatic of Stargate writing. I'm slightly terrified that they're going to Mess It All Up, of course, because, hey, Dwama Llama options.
But what I like about the Teyla/Kanaan vs. Teyla/John dynamics is that they show us a lot more about Teyla herself and who she sees herself to be. Her life has been a balance between the ordinary and the conflictual: living peacefully vs. the chaos of culling, her people's agrarian ways vs. Atlantis' technology, and most importantly, her desire to be with her people and her desire to be doing something bigger.
So it is with Kanaan (the supportive man in her life, able to step back and watch her go out) and John (the man who challenges her, who forces her out of some of her comfort zones). Teyla doesn't belong to her people, she doesn't belong to Atlantis. She's a divided character in terms of what she's doing: her past is her people, her present is Atlantis, her future...well, that depends on whether they beat the Wraith and the Asurans or not.
One reason I've always liked Teyla is because she's a "woman" character - a character who embodies a lot of the conflicts and biases and issues that women face - both in the show, and from the fandom. (I don't know if there's an accepted term for it in fannish meta-circles.)
From her clothing, to how she goes about questioning authority, to how she changes people's courses of action, to the divide between 'two sides' of her life... I won't say it's 'stereotypically female' but it does embody a lot of the angles and difficulties of women in the modern world.
The divide between the two sides of her life is what the Teyla/Kanaan and Teyla/John relationships represent to me. And both of them give insight into the kind of woman Teyla is: one who wants to make a difference to the universe herself, but knows that she has a life reliant on her; one who enjoys being 'at rest', but who also yearns for a challenge; one who feels the weight of balancing a child against a dangerous career and being unwilling to sacrifice either herself for her child's needs or her child for her own needs.
Kanaan might have been a hybrid in body (and we've still got a lot to learn about him before he becomes a 'real boy' and not just 'Teyla's house husband') but Teyla's a hybrid in soul. There's no "cure" for that.
Thinking it over, with this episode, I've shown myself to be primarily a Teyla-fan, not a John/Teyla-fan. John/Teyla is an acceptable sacrifice in the name of getting more insight into Teyla. Which I think we've been getting the last few episodes, quite pleasingly.
It's not as much as I'd like (I could go all Teyla, all the time), but it's more than I've been getting the last few seasons.
Right, so that morphed a little unexpectedly. You know when you start off at point A and then somehow ramble your way across to point B and are slightly surprised to have arrived?
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First off, you know I like John/Teyla a lot, right? But I don't think that I rate 'shipper status especially since this is a fandom I don't play in much. So I don't feel as if my actually liking their pairing colors my opinion here.
The thing is, I thought that the Kanaan and Teyla scenes were kind of awkward. Yes, he was verbally and emotionally supportive to her during their scenes together, but their physical interaction actually made me think "oh, these two are SO not sharing a bed anymore." Their body language was just...off. What's more, I kept expecting Kanaan to touch Teyla at least once, especially in their final scene together when she's holding their son. It would have been completely natural for him to curve an arm around her side as they looked at their child together, but he didn't. They stood close to one another, but he very carefully didn't touch her.
Or did I miss something?
Part of me wants to rewatch those scenes again just to make sure, but if ANYTHING it seemed to me that the actors were very careful NOT to express what even would have been casual physical interaction.
I finished the episode thinking that SGA had clearly shown that the physical aspects of their relationship were in trouble and that, at best, they'd be friends who shared a child - not life-long lovers.
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I have no trouble with this interpretation, either!
And, yes, there was a hesitancy about physical contact between the characters - I put it down to "an Athosian reserve" but your reading of it could certainly work just as well.
For me, the shared quarters and the emotional supportiveness suggested a personal relationship; of course, I'd be happy to be wrong!
I guess people will read what they want to read into it, and what they feel comfortable with. And I may be overcompensating for my initial instincts. There's a part of me that's battering fists against the screen going, "ACK! NO! JOHN/TEYLA ALL THE WAY!" But there's another part of me that's a little calmer and is saying, "Well, this is how it is for the moment, but that can change in an instant, and compared with the Pete Fiasco, Kanaan's doing pretty well in my books."
As far as Teyla's development has gone in the last couple of eps, I really have enjoyed what we've seen of her as a mother, and liked that Kanaan is supportive of her, while John (in this episode, anyway) was the challenger.
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Yes, but Teyla has always mentioned how she and Kanaan share a bond because of their shared Wraith heritage. Part of that intimacy and supportiveness is something that, to me at least, is more of a trait of friendship than anything else. Part of Teyla's canonical draw to Kanaan has been that he's very much like her. I can only assume that he shares that same quiet strength and that he DOES offer good advice. He wouldn't be a leader otherwise.
Also? In no way did that episode prove that they're actually sharing quarters. It wasn't explicitly stated, was it?
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True. I guess I'm making the common assumption, which doesn't necessarily have to be right. And, no, it's not explicitly stated - Teyla says that it's been easier since Kanaan was given permission to move back into the city, but never says that he's moved in with her.
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You make good points about the differences between Kanaan as a man with a background and personality different to the other men in the series. The men in the Atlantis expedition are 'coded' Earth; and Ronon comes from a warrior background and is a very different personality to Kanaan.
Thinking this over, if it was any other man in Atlantis showing that easy emotional supportiveness, it would imply a closer degree of intimacy between them. Obviously the intimacy is context dependant - eg. Ronon's supportiveness to Teyla on the announcement of her pregnancy, showed intimacy in a platonic, brother-like way - but in this situation, for any other character it would automatically be assumed that the relationship is physically and emotionally intimate.
I like that you've pointed out that Kanaan isn't necessarily coded according to 'Earth males'.
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Now, they could go somewhere interesting with that, and looking at how maybe after dealing with the intensity of John, Ronon, and Rodney all the time, it's nice to come back to someone who *isn't* going to be constantly challenging and pushing her. But I'm afraid that he's basically going to be the house husband who's basically there to babysit while Teyla's off doing team stuff.
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Yeah, I get that. Hence my comment about him not yet being 'a real boy'.
I think I may be overcompensating on two fronts:
1. I don't want to be the panicked, ranty John/Teyla shipper who's all "OMG, my ship is sunk ohnoes!!11eleventy!"
2. I remember how questionable a character Pete Shanahan was as a boyfriend for Sam Carter, and am limp with relief that they didn't fuck Kanaan up from the get go. (Okay, so this is mostly because they haven't really given him anything, but...)
That last in particular makes me wonder what she sees in him
I'm going to ask the same question I've been posing to people everywhere and for which I haven't gotten an answer yet. It may come down to watching the episode again (which wasn't a bad episode all things considered), but I'm beginning to think I imainged it entirely given the complete silence on this front.
Didn't Michael say that he engineered Teyla's pregnancy in Kindred I?
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Heh. I do understand that, especially after the "Avatar" series finale, since I was all about the Zutara.
Didn't Michael say that he engineered Teyla's pregnancy in Kindred I?
...you know, I'm not sure. I think you're right--that needs a re-watch.
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I agree. Although I love JT as a couple, I love Teyla more. It confuses me that all I heard during the first 2 seasons of SGA was about how aloof and reserved Teyla was. Now we get to see the *woman* Teyla...not just *warrior* and *leader*, but a woman that has had to deal with a LOT of changes in a very short span of time and people don't like it. Fans screamed for a man in Teyla's life, maybe John would finally get it and now Teyla's being bashed for leading John on. *Sigh*
Again, I agree. Being the mother of two it is a constant challenge between as the old commerical used to say,"bringing home the bacon and frying it up in the pan." You have to be so much to so many and it is difficult and sometimes with a sense of guilt that woman/mother's make a choice for *self*. Men don't face those choices, their choices have been set by society and their own natures. In a changing world it is not so for us. Teyla's world is definitely changing so I can understand were she is.
As for Kanaan, I liked getting a little more insight into him. I could see some of what Teyla saw in him. As for the physical aspects of their relationship, the closest he came was when he put both hands to her shoulder and told her to follow her heart. I would have thought a headtouch would have been a nice followup...so that can be telling. Also, maybe I'm making more out of this than I should, but when Kanaan was giving his prep talk, he said *your* son, NOT *our* son...again, too much out of too little? I will be interested to see how the ep the Prodigal plays out.
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Yes. That's important to me: that we see why Teyla cares about him. (Loves, cares, is friends with, whatever people want to term it.)
The examples you've pointed out are very interesting - I didn't pick up on them. The problem is that we don't have any cultural referents for the Athosians and their family lives - a lot of it is inferred based on what dribs and drabs we see and hear.
So maybe a child belongs to its mother, unless the father is given explicit care of it (as probably happened with Jinto and Halling)? Teyla does ID herself as "Teyla, daughter of Tegan" when she says her father's name is Torran.
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So, far I've liked what I"ve seen in the sense that it's what and how I've pictured Teyla. My love for John and Teyla extends to what those two have shown me onscreen.
But Teyla is the reason that I love this show and the one that I am truly a fan of and for that reason, this whole plot with Kanan is so far working for me.
Yes, there is a lack of "physical intimacy" between them, but like you Tie...that's fine with me! There's a side of Teyla there that I've seen, but I would be more specific in writing that it's not solely on Kanan but as a resulf of her child with Kanan. Would I have seen this side of Teyla if it had not been for her child? Maybe not as passionate, not as careless and as determined as she was to find Kanan, to find the father of her child.
In Broken Ties her struggle to return or not to return to the team had nothing to do with Kanan but about her child. And once she knew that Kanan was going to be there and that he wasn't going to hold her decision against her and leave her and her child, the decision became easier for her.
So, in seeing this side of Teyla, I think the only reason we are seein so much depth is because of her child. She has had to adjust to a different way of life because now she thinks of the one that depends on her; her son.
The other difference I see here, is that Kanan doesn't bring anything in Teyla that I don't already know, the woman in Teyla I've see more with John.
And again, it's my perception...but in this particular episode, Teyla's argument with John kept bringing me back to that now famous book title that turn into a slogan, Man are from Mars Women are from Venus...I could be getting this title all wrong, btw...*wink*
But my point is, John's reaction did show that typical male side that thinks that what he thought was what was best and what the woman would think was best....his line of I thought you needed some time with your child vs telling you about Ronon, is a perfect example of how men can never get it right because they don't think like a women, and the same goes for Teyla. She expected Joh to tell her and in him not telling her about Ronon, she thought he was being careless and arrogant, when in fact, he was thinking about her. The same goes for his decision to put off Wooselys' order to find a replacement for her while she makes up her mind, and yet, she thinks that this was only a tough decision on her while he tells her he has been thinking about it and he does know the tough choice she has to make and even added that he would support whichever decision she makes...
So, for me the real depth to her role and the real turnover to the Teyla the woman has been because of her relationship with Kanan that resulted in her life changing experience, motherhood. And this bit has changed her as her role of not a leader, or a lover, but more of a team mate, a mother, and a friend. She wants to continue to be with the team, that was never a question; her concern was with her child and what would happen if she wasn't there, if she got hurt and had a child without a mother...and Kanan told her what she needed to hear, he would have a father.
I do hope this is not the end for JT, and I still have hope. I won't get what I want, but I'm still hopeful. But overall, I do love what I"m seeing in Teyla and I expect it as much despite the fact that yes, I do see a lot of JTers frustrated and unfortunately too, some see it as a negative characterization for Teyla, when in fact to me, it just makes her more wholesome!
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I don't think it is, any more than Sam Carter/Pete Shanahan was the end of Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill in SG1.
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Great pov as always and you said once again really well what I thought.
Yeah what bothered me the most personaly is that we will lost JT shipper I think.
Yeah I'm like you I think I'm primarily a Teyla fan more than a JT fan and I find it an awesome ep for her. Nevertheless i discovered too that I'm perhaps more a fan of the chemistry between JT than a shipper and finally I hope the tension will calm down as much as I would have wanted a JT ship.
I think things are a little difficult for now in the JT front and I think we will have to wait but I really like Kanaan on this one and I think that sadly of all her friend he was the only one to be there for her.
ITA with you about Teyla she's really an awesome character and an awesome actress. I don't understand why the fault come always on her but my mind is so difficult to understand even for me that I totally beloieve and find really in character the reasonning and difficult choices that Teyla affronts. Things aren't always all black or all white and for some people it can be even more complex and Teyla cares too much for the people around her to take such decision so quickly.
I didn't presented myself before I haven't LJ account but I'm asgard30.
Thanks again for sharing your great thoughts and express so well what bother me but I'm not great enought to say it so well :)
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I, like many of you, have wanted to learn more about Teyla as an individual and am happy with what I have seen so far.
That Teyla and Kanaan share a relationship doesn’t bother me, but I do believe that after what happened in season four the relationship has drastically changed. Teyla’s search for her people included Kanaan, but he was special to her because he was a close friend, a lover and, most importantly, the father of her child. Something tells me that too much has happened and too much time has passed for their relationship to suddenly pick up where it left off.
I say this because in Ties That Bind I simply saw two close friends, who shared a common bond, their child, with one showing support for the other. I didn’t get the feeling that they were in love or that they even shared the same bedroom; Kanaan seemed to be in Teyla’s quarters only to care for Torren.
The Teyla/John vs. Teyla Kanaan dynamic will be interesting to watch, but for now, I’ll just try to keep an opened mind and enjoy the show.
FYI – Kindred I: Michael mentions the orchestration of a ‘family reunion’ which is a reference to Teyla being reunited with her people.
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I can definitely agree with this. Things might have been different if the Athosians hadn't gone missing when they did, or if Kanaan had immediately been on Teyla's side in Michael's ship.
I'm not entirely convinced that TPTB didn't intend to show that Teyla and Kanaan and their son are a family unit, with the implications of them being lovers again, but I'm willing to be open-minded about it.
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I have to admit that this episode did upset me on the JT front. Not that I don't love the show, love Teyla (who is one of the most powerful female role models on tv at presnt IMHO) and the rest outside of the ship. But, what upset me was that I felt for John. After S&R's opening scene (and opening scene of the season) it feels even heavier that she is now with Kanaan. So I feel for John as a charcter.
I like that they wanted to give teyla a 'happy ending' with her 'family' (as Joe M put it in his blog)and even found myself liking Kanaan as a kind supportive character. On the intimacy question - wasn't that a double bed behind them though? It struck me as new larger quarters made for two, or was that just me? And Kanaan just walked into the room, he didn't activate the chimes, which suggests to me that they are living together.
Anyway, I still am not convinced that Kanaan is here to stay (this is stargate after all) and have to wonder what will happen when Michael turns up, but at least as you say we get some great Teyla character development out of the deal.
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Regarding feeling for John, a lot of John/Teyla fans have tended to feel so much for him that they completely forget how Teyla might feel about the situation, or demonise her and their actions - if not in discussions, in their stories.
There seems to be an outrage among some JT shippers that Teyla chose someone other than John, even though John has never actually said that he's interested. (Not as himself - Thalen might give an insight into John's mind for the audience, but Teyla apparently saw it as a ploy to keep Thalen-John alive in the face of Phoebus' demands.)
I see no logic in the position that Teyla is cruel to have picked someone other than John.
Teyla has already said that, among her people, the man makes the first move - the first expression of interest.
John has given no direct and obvious indication to Teyla as himself that he's more interested in her than as a friend or a team-mate. Much of what he says and does can be attributed to a teasing, comfortable friendship and not an attempt to flirt.
And Teyla is not someone to wait forever for "Mr. Right" - life in the Pegasus galaxy is short, I imagine that brevity of existence tends to dictate on many aspects of life - including intimacy and pleasure.
I feel empathy for John's situation, but I'm not in sympathy with him. He made his decision not to push the boundaries of friendship; Teyla made her decision to start a relationship with someone else.
There has been no deception, no intentional cruelty, no unkindness. Teyla is not wrong to have chosen Kanaan when John made no moves. John is not wrong to be hurt and angry, but I strongly believe that the character is far more understanding of his situation and what he did (or didn't do) to bring it upon himself than most fans.
Most fans only see, "Oh, poor John! He must be hurting to see Teyla with someone else." They don't see, "John never gave Teyla any indication that he was interested, and so she presumed he was not."
I've seen the argument that Teyla, being a diplomat and a friend to John, should have seen that John was interested in her and not developed her relationship with Kanaan. To which I'm both offended and disgusted: John lacks the courage or self-awareness to make a move on a woman he's interested in, and it's Teyla's fault? Talk about putting unreasonable expectations on women!
John might feel a pang at Teyla's relationship with Kanaan, but I strongly believe that he's man enough to have gotten past the initial responses of anger and hurt that marked his actions in BAMSR and SoW. It doesn't mean he doesn't feel them, but he's not going to rail at her about how cruel and unfeeling she is to have never realised he cared about her as more than just a friend.
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She was right to 'move on', but even then it's not like she moved on from anything specfic. Though, that she kept her relationship with Kanaan completely quiet from everyone is rather telling.
Most people have done the putting someone behind you thing, but in truth you always wonder 'what if'.
I really respected the writers for not falling into the usual scifi/tv response of killing off Kanaan and the baby either gets killed, taken or grows up super fast. They went with the real life aspect and gave Teyla a happy family. It made Teyla stronger as a result as well, she is far from the weeping woman pinning over a man she doesn't have. And I wouldn't want her to be that way. And Kanaan is represented as a good kind man who is supporting her in her decisions and what's wrong with a stay at home dad anyway (as some fans are complaining about)?
But, that said my heart will always want JT together, not because it 'should' be that way, but because I like the idea of those characters together. (and yes I'm sure that reflects something on myself and my views of the world).
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for me kanaan is teyla's reminder of home and safety. athos is her comfort zone, and so is kanaan. he is her fall back guy, her childhood friend someone who shares the same culture and ideals.
john is were her passion lies, he challenges her to step out of the familiar and fight the unknown, to step into the danger head first.
as sweet as her moment with kanaan and the baby were, we saw the fire in teyla with her confrontation with john and that is what stood out to me.
john's anger at the situation goes beyond teyla's undesicion, he was perfectly content earlier up until he found out she was certain of her return back to the team and thus back to him.
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First off, you know I like John/Teyla a lot, right? But I don't think that I rate 'shipper status especially since this is a fandom I don't play in much. So I don't feel as if my actually liking their pairing colors my opinion here.
The thing is, I thought that the Kanaan and Teyla scenes were kind of awkward. Yes, he was verbally and emotionally supportive to her during their scenes together, but their physical interaction actually made me think "oh, these two are SO not sharing a bed anymore." Their body language was just...off. What's more, I kept expecting Kanaan to touch Teyla at least once, especially in their final scene together when she's holding their son. It would have been completely natural for him to curve an arm around her side as they looked at their child together, but he didn't. They stood close to one another, but he very carefully didn't touch her.
Or did I miss something?
Part of me wants to rewatch those scenes again just to make sure, but if ANYTHING it seemed to me that the actors were very careful NOT to express what even would have been casual physical interaction.
I finished the episode thinking that SGA had clearly shown that the physical aspects of their relationship were in trouble and that, at best, they'd be friends who shared a child - not life-long lovers.
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I have no trouble with this interpretation, either!
And, yes, there was a hesitancy about physical contact between the characters - I put it down to "an Athosian reserve" but your reading of it could certainly work just as well.
For me, the shared quarters and the emotional supportiveness suggested a personal relationship; of course, I'd be happy to be wrong!
I guess people will read what they want to read into it, and what they feel comfortable with. And I may be overcompensating for my initial instincts. There's a part of me that's battering fists against the screen going, "ACK! NO! JOHN/TEYLA ALL THE WAY!" But there's another part of me that's a little calmer and is saying, "Well, this is how it is for the moment, but that can change in an instant, and compared with the Pete Fiasco, Kanaan's doing pretty well in my books."
As far as Teyla's development has gone in the last couple of eps, I really have enjoyed what we've seen of her as a mother, and liked that Kanaan is supportive of her, while John (in this episode, anyway) was the challenger.
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Yes, but Teyla has always mentioned how she and Kanaan share a bond because of their shared Wraith heritage. Part of that intimacy and supportiveness is something that, to me at least, is more of a trait of friendship than anything else. Part of Teyla's canonical draw to Kanaan has been that he's very much like her. I can only assume that he shares that same quiet strength and that he DOES offer good advice. He wouldn't be a leader otherwise.
Also? In no way did that episode prove that they're actually sharing quarters. It wasn't explicitly stated, was it?
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True. I guess I'm making the common assumption, which doesn't necessarily have to be right. And, no, it's not explicitly stated - Teyla says that it's been easier since Kanaan was given permission to move back into the city, but never says that he's moved in with her.
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You make good points about the differences between Kanaan as a man with a background and personality different to the other men in the series. The men in the Atlantis expedition are 'coded' Earth; and Ronon comes from a warrior background and is a very different personality to Kanaan.
Thinking this over, if it was any other man in Atlantis showing that easy emotional supportiveness, it would imply a closer degree of intimacy between them. Obviously the intimacy is context dependant - eg. Ronon's supportiveness to Teyla on the announcement of her pregnancy, showed intimacy in a platonic, brother-like way - but in this situation, for any other character it would automatically be assumed that the relationship is physically and emotionally intimate.
I like that you've pointed out that Kanaan isn't necessarily coded according to 'Earth males'.
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Now, they could go somewhere interesting with that, and looking at how maybe after dealing with the intensity of John, Ronon, and Rodney all the time, it's nice to come back to someone who *isn't* going to be constantly challenging and pushing her. But I'm afraid that he's basically going to be the house husband who's basically there to babysit while Teyla's off doing team stuff.
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Yeah, I get that. Hence my comment about him not yet being 'a real boy'.
I think I may be overcompensating on two fronts:
1. I don't want to be the panicked, ranty John/Teyla shipper who's all "OMG, my ship is sunk ohnoes!!11eleventy!"
2. I remember how questionable a character Pete Shanahan was as a boyfriend for Sam Carter, and am limp with relief that they didn't fuck Kanaan up from the get go. (Okay, so this is mostly because they haven't really given him anything, but...)
That last in particular makes me wonder what she sees in him
I'm going to ask the same question I've been posing to people everywhere and for which I haven't gotten an answer yet. It may come down to watching the episode again (which wasn't a bad episode all things considered), but I'm beginning to think I imainged it entirely given the complete silence on this front.
Didn't Michael say that he engineered Teyla's pregnancy in Kindred I?
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Heh. I do understand that, especially after the "Avatar" series finale, since I was all about the Zutara.
Didn't Michael say that he engineered Teyla's pregnancy in Kindred I?
...you know, I'm not sure. I think you're right--that needs a re-watch.
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I agree. Although I love JT as a couple, I love Teyla more. It confuses me that all I heard during the first 2 seasons of SGA was about how aloof and reserved Teyla was. Now we get to see the *woman* Teyla...not just *warrior* and *leader*, but a woman that has had to deal with a LOT of changes in a very short span of time and people don't like it. Fans screamed for a man in Teyla's life, maybe John would finally get it and now Teyla's being bashed for leading John on. *Sigh*
Again, I agree. Being the mother of two it is a constant challenge between as the old commerical used to say,"bringing home the bacon and frying it up in the pan." You have to be so much to so many and it is difficult and sometimes with a sense of guilt that woman/mother's make a choice for *self*. Men don't face those choices, their choices have been set by society and their own natures. In a changing world it is not so for us. Teyla's world is definitely changing so I can understand were she is.
As for Kanaan, I liked getting a little more insight into him. I could see some of what Teyla saw in him. As for the physical aspects of their relationship, the closest he came was when he put both hands to her shoulder and told her to follow her heart. I would have thought a headtouch would have been a nice followup...so that can be telling. Also, maybe I'm making more out of this than I should, but when Kanaan was giving his prep talk, he said *your* son, NOT *our* son...again, too much out of too little? I will be interested to see how the ep the Prodigal plays out.
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Yes. That's important to me: that we see why Teyla cares about him. (Loves, cares, is friends with, whatever people want to term it.)
The examples you've pointed out are very interesting - I didn't pick up on them. The problem is that we don't have any cultural referents for the Athosians and their family lives - a lot of it is inferred based on what dribs and drabs we see and hear.
So maybe a child belongs to its mother, unless the father is given explicit care of it (as probably happened with Jinto and Halling)? Teyla does ID herself as "Teyla, daughter of Tegan" when she says her father's name is Torran.
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So, far I've liked what I"ve seen in the sense that it's what and how I've pictured Teyla. My love for John and Teyla extends to what those two have shown me onscreen.
But Teyla is the reason that I love this show and the one that I am truly a fan of and for that reason, this whole plot with Kanan is so far working for me.
Yes, there is a lack of "physical intimacy" between them, but like you Tie...that's fine with me! There's a side of Teyla there that I've seen, but I would be more specific in writing that it's not solely on Kanan but as a resulf of her child with Kanan. Would I have seen this side of Teyla if it had not been for her child? Maybe not as passionate, not as careless and as determined as she was to find Kanan, to find the father of her child.
In Broken Ties her struggle to return or not to return to the team had nothing to do with Kanan but about her child. And once she knew that Kanan was going to be there and that he wasn't going to hold her decision against her and leave her and her child, the decision became easier for her.
So, in seeing this side of Teyla, I think the only reason we are seein so much depth is because of her child. She has had to adjust to a different way of life because now she thinks of the one that depends on her; her son.
The other difference I see here, is that Kanan doesn't bring anything in Teyla that I don't already know, the woman in Teyla I've see more with John.
And again, it's my perception...but in this particular episode, Teyla's argument with John kept bringing me back to that now famous book title that turn into a slogan, Man are from Mars Women are from Venus...I could be getting this title all wrong, btw...*wink*
But my point is, John's reaction did show that typical male side that thinks that what he thought was what was best and what the woman would think was best....his line of I thought you needed some time with your child vs telling you about Ronon, is a perfect example of how men can never get it right because they don't think like a women, and the same goes for Teyla. She expected Joh to tell her and in him not telling her about Ronon, she thought he was being careless and arrogant, when in fact, he was thinking about her. The same goes for his decision to put off Wooselys' order to find a replacement for her while she makes up her mind, and yet, she thinks that this was only a tough decision on her while he tells her he has been thinking about it and he does know the tough choice she has to make and even added that he would support whichever decision she makes...
So, for me the real depth to her role and the real turnover to the Teyla the woman has been because of her relationship with Kanan that resulted in her life changing experience, motherhood. And this bit has changed her as her role of not a leader, or a lover, but more of a team mate, a mother, and a friend. She wants to continue to be with the team, that was never a question; her concern was with her child and what would happen if she wasn't there, if she got hurt and had a child without a mother...and Kanan told her what she needed to hear, he would have a father.
I do hope this is not the end for JT, and I still have hope. I won't get what I want, but I'm still hopeful. But overall, I do love what I"m seeing in Teyla and I expect it as much despite the fact that yes, I do see a lot of JTers frustrated and unfortunately too, some see it as a negative characterization for Teyla, when in fact to me, it just makes her more wholesome!
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I don't think it is, any more than Sam Carter/Pete Shanahan was the end of Sam Carter/Jack O'Neill in SG1.
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Great pov as always and you said once again really well what I thought.
Yeah what bothered me the most personaly is that we will lost JT shipper I think.
Yeah I'm like you I think I'm primarily a Teyla fan more than a JT fan and I find it an awesome ep for her. Nevertheless i discovered too that I'm perhaps more a fan of the chemistry between JT than a shipper and finally I hope the tension will calm down as much as I would have wanted a JT ship.
I think things are a little difficult for now in the JT front and I think we will have to wait but I really like Kanaan on this one and I think that sadly of all her friend he was the only one to be there for her.
ITA with you about Teyla she's really an awesome character and an awesome actress. I don't understand why the fault come always on her but my mind is so difficult to understand even for me that I totally beloieve and find really in character the reasonning and difficult choices that Teyla affronts. Things aren't always all black or all white and for some people it can be even more complex and Teyla cares too much for the people around her to take such decision so quickly.
I didn't presented myself before I haven't LJ account but I'm asgard30.
Thanks again for sharing your great thoughts and express so well what bother me but I'm not great enought to say it so well :)
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I, like many of you, have wanted to learn more about Teyla as an individual and am happy with what I have seen so far.
That Teyla and Kanaan share a relationship doesn’t bother me, but I do believe that after what happened in season four the relationship has drastically changed. Teyla’s search for her people included Kanaan, but he was special to her because he was a close friend, a lover and, most importantly, the father of her child. Something tells me that too much has happened and too much time has passed for their relationship to suddenly pick up where it left off.
I say this because in Ties That Bind I simply saw two close friends, who shared a common bond, their child, with one showing support for the other. I didn’t get the feeling that they were in love or that they even shared the same bedroom; Kanaan seemed to be in Teyla’s quarters only to care for Torren.
The Teyla/John vs. Teyla Kanaan dynamic will be interesting to watch, but for now, I’ll just try to keep an opened mind and enjoy the show.
FYI – Kindred I: Michael mentions the orchestration of a ‘family reunion’ which is a reference to Teyla being reunited with her people.
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I can definitely agree with this. Things might have been different if the Athosians hadn't gone missing when they did, or if Kanaan had immediately been on Teyla's side in Michael's ship.
I'm not entirely convinced that TPTB didn't intend to show that Teyla and Kanaan and their son are a family unit, with the implications of them being lovers again, but I'm willing to be open-minded about it.
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I have to admit that this episode did upset me on the JT front. Not that I don't love the show, love Teyla (who is one of the most powerful female role models on tv at presnt IMHO) and the rest outside of the ship. But, what upset me was that I felt for John. After S&R's opening scene (and opening scene of the season) it feels even heavier that she is now with Kanaan. So I feel for John as a charcter.
I like that they wanted to give teyla a 'happy ending' with her 'family' (as Joe M put it in his blog)and even found myself liking Kanaan as a kind supportive character. On the intimacy question - wasn't that a double bed behind them though? It struck me as new larger quarters made for two, or was that just me? And Kanaan just walked into the room, he didn't activate the chimes, which suggests to me that they are living together.
Anyway, I still am not convinced that Kanaan is here to stay (this is stargate after all) and have to wonder what will happen when Michael turns up, but at least as you say we get some great Teyla character development out of the deal.
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Regarding feeling for John, a lot of John/Teyla fans have tended to feel so much for him that they completely forget how Teyla might feel about the situation, or demonise her and their actions - if not in discussions, in their stories.
There seems to be an outrage among some JT shippers that Teyla chose someone other than John, even though John has never actually said that he's interested. (Not as himself - Thalen might give an insight into John's mind for the audience, but Teyla apparently saw it as a ploy to keep Thalen-John alive in the face of Phoebus' demands.)
I see no logic in the position that Teyla is cruel to have picked someone other than John.
Teyla has already said that, among her people, the man makes the first move - the first expression of interest.
John has given no direct and obvious indication to Teyla as himself that he's more interested in her than as a friend or a team-mate. Much of what he says and does can be attributed to a teasing, comfortable friendship and not an attempt to flirt.
And Teyla is not someone to wait forever for "Mr. Right" - life in the Pegasus galaxy is short, I imagine that brevity of existence tends to dictate on many aspects of life - including intimacy and pleasure.
I feel empathy for John's situation, but I'm not in sympathy with him. He made his decision not to push the boundaries of friendship; Teyla made her decision to start a relationship with someone else.
There has been no deception, no intentional cruelty, no unkindness. Teyla is not wrong to have chosen Kanaan when John made no moves. John is not wrong to be hurt and angry, but I strongly believe that the character is far more understanding of his situation and what he did (or didn't do) to bring it upon himself than most fans.
Most fans only see, "Oh, poor John! He must be hurting to see Teyla with someone else." They don't see, "John never gave Teyla any indication that he was interested, and so she presumed he was not."
I've seen the argument that Teyla, being a diplomat and a friend to John, should have seen that John was interested in her and not developed her relationship with Kanaan. To which I'm both offended and disgusted: John lacks the courage or self-awareness to make a move on a woman he's interested in, and it's Teyla's fault? Talk about putting unreasonable expectations on women!
John might feel a pang at Teyla's relationship with Kanaan, but I strongly believe that he's man enough to have gotten past the initial responses of anger and hurt that marked his actions in BAMSR and SoW. It doesn't mean he doesn't feel them, but he's not going to rail at her about how cruel and unfeeling she is to have never realised he cared about her as more than just a friend.
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She was right to 'move on', but even then it's not like she moved on from anything specfic. Though, that she kept her relationship with Kanaan completely quiet from everyone is rather telling.
Most people have done the putting someone behind you thing, but in truth you always wonder 'what if'.
I really respected the writers for not falling into the usual scifi/tv response of killing off Kanaan and the baby either gets killed, taken or grows up super fast. They went with the real life aspect and gave Teyla a happy family. It made Teyla stronger as a result as well, she is far from the weeping woman pinning over a man she doesn't have. And I wouldn't want her to be that way. And Kanaan is represented as a good kind man who is supporting her in her decisions and what's wrong with a stay at home dad anyway (as some fans are complaining about)?
But, that said my heart will always want JT together, not because it 'should' be that way, but because I like the idea of those characters together. (and yes I'm sure that reflects something on myself and my views of the world).
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for me kanaan is teyla's reminder of home and safety. athos is her comfort zone, and so is kanaan. he is her fall back guy, her childhood friend someone who shares the same culture and ideals.
john is were her passion lies, he challenges her to step out of the familiar and fight the unknown, to step into the danger head first.
as sweet as her moment with kanaan and the baby were, we saw the fire in teyla with her confrontation with john and that is what stood out to me.
john's anger at the situation goes beyond teyla's undesicion, he was perfectly content earlier up until he found out she was certain of her return back to the team and thus back to him.