I follow college football, which is different from the NFL. The NFL is the professional football league, along with the AFL (National Football League and American Football League).
Well, it's me trying to be considerate, too. I wouldn't ask someone who didn't like a pairing to beta a fic for that pairing - why should I ask you to beta a fic in a genre you hate?
If you're willing (and if it's not going to pain you too much) then I wouldn't mind if you'd read through the football chapters and point out the flaws.
Not rabidly, in other words I pay more attention to what the 'tahs or the Wallabies are doing, but I listen to the scores and keep an ear to the ground about what's happening. And I'm a guy, and it's a sport. I've also actually played a season and a half of American football.
Sue is right though, the NFL is a very different animal than the NCAA championship. (NFL = National Football League, NCAA = National College Association of America)
Would you? Apart from the story itself, I'm a little curious. (Because of the story, but now that the question's been brought up, I wouldn't mind knowing...)
Especially since I understand that the high school football scene feeds into the college football scene which feeds into the pro football scene...so it's really all related.
Yes, they would. When I played in Aus, although it was a bunch of guys in their 20's and 30's, what we were playing was in many ways equivalent to High School football, although the rules we used were more like College ball than anything.
To make it simple, on the offensive side there are 5 players across the front. These guys are BIG, and are called the offensive line. The guy in the middle is the Center, then either side of him are the left guard and the right guard. Outside them are the left tackle and right tackle. So this would look like:
LT LG C RG RT
This is important as the offensive plays run around these players.
Behind the Center is the Quarterback. Behind him is usually the Fullback and/or Tailback. The Fullback is usually a bigger guy, while the Tailback is usually slightly faster. Often, the Fullback just blocks for the Tailback.
The guys standing towards the edges in line with the offensive line are called Wide Receivers. They don't necessarily have special names.
Anyway, if the Quarterback gives the ball to the Fullback or Tailback and they carry it between the Center and a Guard, that's called a Dive or Plunge. Whether it's Dive Left or Dive Right depends on which side it goes. If it's further out it might be called an Off Tackle play, where the running back aims somewhere just outside the Tackle. This is the most common running play in American Football. (or so says Wikipedia anyway). There are many variations on these plays, but these are very common running plays.
When the Quarterback throws the ball to a Receiver, it's called a Passing Play. Many of these will have the same names in High School ball and College or Pro Ball, though the way they are carried out may look slightly different. This is mostly because the guys in College and Pro are just that much better than the HS players - you're taking tens of thousands of HS players and reducing that number to thousands of college players, or hundreds of Pro players.
Does this help at all? Is it what you're looking for?
If you go to Wikipedia and look up "American football plays", you'll get a list of plays that could be made. Most of tehse will be the same between all levels of the sport. It's just a matter of how well they're carried out.
Wikipedia has been a wonderful help with all the information over the last couple of weeks - I got most of my basic information from there, as well as plays and terminology. I've even seen a Saturday college football game in the US, now.
I was more looking for someone who could answer my more immediate questions as they arise and/or beta the fic.
However, due to pairing preferences and time constraints, I don't think you'll be much help on the beta front.
Incidentally, do you find it's a rougher game than, say, Australian Rugby League? Or about the same?
I started watching US football when I was a little girl. I still go to an occasional high school game. I usually watch at least one college game and one pro game each weekend. I'd be happy to beta your fic - no matter what genre.
Thanks for the offer - I may take you up on it. I'll need at least one American beta for this one since it's very much contemporary American culture and requires a little creative interpretation as well as the technical stuff for the various football games and references.
Yep, I still read LJ (and your journals), I just don't participate as much as I used to.
As far as the question about whether US football is rougher than rugby...I don't know all that much about rugby, but it seems rougher mostly because rugby players don't wear pads. It's not that football is all that nice though. Once in a while, you hear about a player getting killed or paralyzed from a hit. Not a common thing, but it does happen.
The same thing is true of Rugby players. A guy from my High School 1st XV Rugby Union team was paralyzed from the neck down after a scrum collapsed when I was in year 7 or 8. Injuries aren't as frequent as they used to be, but they still happen.
And I can tell you that the hits hurt more in rugby, because you aren't wearing pads! Also, there is nothing like a maul or scrum in gridion, and I can tell you that suffering from some tapdancing on the back can hurt one heck of a lot.
So I think Rugby players are just tougher because they don't wear pads. The same way cricket players are tougher as they don't need gloves to catch a ball that's harder than a baseball. ;)
Well I'm certainly happy to try and answer immediate questions as they arise, though there is obviously the time difference to contend with. Like now, as I had to go to church so you've likely gone to bed in the mean time.
As for roughness, in some ways it is a much more physical game than anything like League or Union - though I've only played Union. To a large extent this is because the only physical contact doesn't come with the guy with the ball - it's perfectly legal to do blocking (what in League or Union is shepherding and hence illegal) to allow the ball carrier to get through. The hits also can be much harder, especially when you cop a helmet in the side or stomach. Of course, everyone wears padding and helmets which does make a difference to.
The big thing I noticed about the game, and this is in many ways more obvious as a spectator than a player, is the huge number of stoppages in the game. Every time a play ends, there is a break while the teams reorganize, swap players, etc. This definitely produces a strange sense of delay, especially when you're attending a game. It's really weird when you're at an NFL game, I've been to Patriots v. Steelers, and when the ad breaks come on everything just stops at the game. Totally bizarre. Of course, I guess that's what they have cheerleaders.
Now, depending on where you are in the US, High School football can actually be a bigger thing that College or NFL, particularly in areas where there are no local College or pro teams. If you've ever seen the football movie "Friday Night Lights", that's all about just how big High School Football can be. Similarly for "Remember the Titans". So I don't know where your HS AU is based, but if it's somewhere there isn't a college team then they may televise the local game and hype it bigger than anything else in the town. It's something to think about anyway.
And it looks like she doesn't need me anyway, since there are a couple of women who have responded who are apparently far more all seeing and knowing than yours truly. So I'll take my high horse off somewhere and sit on it.
But I do have one thing that nobody else here has - I have actually played football. Of more than one code. Rugby Union. Soccer. American Football. I've played all three. At least that gives me some perspective that many other people do not have.
Thanks for answering, Rob. Your description of your experience with the game is very valuable, too! I tend to forget that it's not like the Oz NRL, tackling only the guy with the ball, and there's something bloodless about watching on TV.
I can assure you that there is nothing bloodless to have "Sweep Left" called, in which me as the fullback had to fake a "Dive Right", only to discover two whopping great linemen from the other team coming back through the same hole. I was on the ground for about a minute before someone dragged me to my feet.
And on a punt return one time, in which I was carrying the ball, I ended up being bent backwards when some large fat dude crashed into my top half. I got about two weeks of physio for a pulled muscle in my lower back from that little event. And you know that I'm not a small guy, so it takes a bit to stop me!
So definitely not bloodless. It's just that the padding and the helmets tend to cut down significantly on the amount of blood that is visible. Unlike Thugby, in which people are always being sent to the "blood bin". The bodies, though, are just as bruised at the end of a game. And yes, some lovely purple ones on occasion.
Resemble in what way? HS football is similar to college (NCAA) and pro (NFL) ball in that the same number of people line up on offense and/or defense (11) and the positions and what each position entails are the same. (Quarterback directs the offense, offensive line protects the quarterback, defensive line tries to sack (tackle) the quarterback, there are various defensive specialty positions and running backs (who run the ball on offense) and wide receivers (who catch the ball on offense). There are also special teams players but we won't discuss those.))
HS, college and NFL ball all play 'quarters' and all are concerned with advancing the ball (by either running or passing) in 10 yard increments every four plays.
The main ways that high school football differs are: HS football runs a less sophisticated offense and defense with a smaller playbook (aka fewer diagrammed plays). HS football players tend to be less specialized. By the time a player gets to college they will play a specific position on either offense or defense-a player in hs might play both offense and defense. (It's called "playing both sides of the ball".) HS football is always, always, always played on Fridays. This is important. It's tradition. Trust me on this.
(Is this what you are looking for? Does this help? I'd be happy to answer specific questions.)
Hm. Yes, that answers much of what I was asking. :) Thank you!
Just out of (further) curiosity, under what circumstances might a high school game be cancelled or switched to a Saturday? If ever? If a game is cancelled due to weather, can it be rescheduled?
Can you explain the way the competition is run? ie. Are there town/regional divisions that play against each other before the regional winners go into a state competition against each other, and the winner of that is the...I don't know, state champion or something?
Just out of (further) curiosity, under what circumstances might a high school game be cancelled or switched to a Saturday? If ever? If a game is cancelled due to weather, can it be rescheduled?
They don't cancel football games due to weather. There was a very famous football game played about 40 years back called the "Ice Bowl" because the temperature was in the negative range (that's Farenheit) and the entire stadium was under a foot of snow and ice. The only way a football game would be canceled due to weather is a) for a hurricane, b) for a snow storm of more than 18 inches-24 inches or c) an earthquake strong enough to damage the stadium.
Every football team has a 'bye week' or two during a season. These bye weeks gives teams a rest during the season and can also, in an emergency, be used to arrange a make-up game. Or a postponed game can be canceled for the season.
Can you explain the way the competition is run?
The specifics of this depend on the state but there is a general pattern that I can explain. I'm going to use Philadelphia, PA, USA as an example because, well, it works as an example. Philadelphia has several different leagues within the city and those leagues play in different state divisions. State divisions for high school athletic play are generally organized by size of enrollment. (The bigger the enrollment, the more competitive the division.) A smaller school can petition to be moved up the division of a school with larger enrollment if their program is competitive enough but a bigger school *can't* petition to be moved down to the division of a smaller school.
Philadelphia has a Catholic League (made up of the areas Catholic high schools and a Public School League (made of the areas public high schools). In the Philadelphia area, most of the schools that play football play in the most prestigious divisions because the schools with smaller enrollment are private schools that don't bother having a football team. The Catholic schools and the Public schools play within their league for the regular season. In suburban/rural areas, the school plays in a division with a group of schools that are located geographically close. (Usually no more than an hour away.)
The best teams from every league within any given division qualify for the regional playoffs for that division. The teams that qualify out of the regional playoffs for each division will play each other for the 'state championship'. A state champion will be crowned in each separate division. *Teams from different divisions are not permitted to play each other but teams from different leagues may play each other.*
In addition, a newspaper (though it barely warrants the name) maintains a list/informal poll of the 'Super 25' which is a national ranking of the top twenty-five teams in the country. These teams will never play each other. The list is more of an intellectual excercise/recruiting tool for high school coaches looking to woo prospective players. (A team with a national ranking has more college coaches recruiting from the team.) It is technically illegal to recruit prospective students for a high school team but it is common practice, especially in the cities. (Several sports magazines also keep Top 25 lists.)
Does all of that make sense? Do you have any more questions?
Yes. If a touchdown is scored, the game clock stops. There is no rule about too few seconds before starting a new play after a touchdown or a Point After Touchdown (PAT). There is a low about taking too many. If if the game clock is not running (for example if on the last play the player went out of bounds) the team is still bound by a 'play clock' which gives them 45 seconds to start the play or they receive a penalty.
Hm. I was more thinking at the end of a game. Say someone scores a td ten seconds before game time runs out - does the clock stop with the touchdown? Do they go on with the conversion?
And thank you so much for answering my questions! :)
What scenario are you seeing this in? The clock would stop and they would go for the conversion unless the game were close and they had just wone it. They might not chance a play where kick could be blocked and so might just spike the ball and let the clock run
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If you're willing (and if it's not going to pain you too much) then I wouldn't mind if you'd read through the football chapters and point out the flaws.
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Sue is right though, the NFL is a very different animal than the NCAA championship. (NFL = National Football League, NCAA = National College Association of America)
What are you looking for?
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High school football - would the plays resemble anything in the pro or college leagues?
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Especially since I understand that the high school football scene feeds into the college football scene which feeds into the pro football scene...so it's really all related.
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To make it simple, on the offensive side there are 5 players across the front. These guys are BIG, and are called the offensive line. The guy in the middle is the Center, then either side of him are the left guard and the right guard. Outside them are the left tackle and right tackle. So this would look like:This is important as the offensive plays run around these players.
Behind the Center is the Quarterback. Behind him is usually the Fullback and/or Tailback. The Fullback is usually a bigger guy, while the Tailback is usually slightly faster. Often, the Fullback just blocks for the Tailback.
The guys standing towards the edges in line with the offensive line are called Wide Receivers. They don't necessarily have special names.
Anyway, if the Quarterback gives the ball to the Fullback or Tailback and they carry it between the Center and a Guard, that's called a Dive or Plunge. Whether it's Dive Left or Dive Right depends on which side it goes. If it's further out it might be called an Off Tackle play, where the running back aims somewhere just outside the Tackle. This is the most common running play in American Football. (or so says Wikipedia anyway). There are many variations on these plays, but these are very common running plays.
When the Quarterback throws the ball to a Receiver, it's called a Passing Play. Many of these will have the same names in High School ball and College or Pro Ball, though the way they are carried out may look slightly different. This is mostly because the guys in College and Pro are just that much better than the HS players - you're taking tens of thousands of HS players and reducing that number to thousands of college players, or hundreds of Pro players.
Does this help at all? Is it what you're looking for?
If you go to Wikipedia and look up "American football plays", you'll get a list of plays that could be made. Most of tehse will be the same between all levels of the sport. It's just a matter of how well they're carried out.
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I was more looking for someone who could answer my more immediate questions as they arise and/or beta the fic.
However, due to pairing preferences and time constraints, I don't think you'll be much help on the beta front.
Incidentally, do you find it's a rougher game than, say, Australian Rugby League? Or about the same?
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Let me know!
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Thanks for the offer - I may take you up on it. I'll need at least one American beta for this one since it's very much contemporary American culture and requires a little creative interpretation as well as the technical stuff for the various football games and references.
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As far as the question about whether US football is rougher than rugby...I don't know all that much about rugby, but it seems rougher mostly because rugby players don't wear pads. It's not that football is all that nice though. Once in a while, you hear about a player getting killed or paralyzed from a hit. Not a common thing, but it does happen.
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And I can tell you that the hits hurt more in rugby, because you aren't wearing pads! Also, there is nothing like a maul or scrum in gridion, and I can tell you that suffering from some tapdancing on the back can hurt one heck of a lot.
So I think Rugby players are just tougher because they don't wear pads. The same way cricket players are tougher as they don't need gloves to catch a ball that's harder than a baseball. ;)
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As for roughness, in some ways it is a much more physical game than anything like League or Union - though I've only played Union. To a large extent this is because the only physical contact doesn't come with the guy with the ball - it's perfectly legal to do blocking (what in League or Union is shepherding and hence illegal) to allow the ball carrier to get through. The hits also can be much harder, especially when you cop a helmet in the side or stomach. Of course, everyone wears padding and helmets which does make a difference to.
The big thing I noticed about the game, and this is in many ways more obvious as a spectator than a player, is the huge number of stoppages in the game. Every time a play ends, there is a break while the teams reorganize, swap players, etc. This definitely produces a strange sense of delay, especially when you're attending a game. It's really weird when you're at an NFL game, I've been to Patriots v. Steelers, and when the ad breaks come on everything just stops at the game. Totally bizarre. Of course, I guess that's what they have cheerleaders.
Now, depending on where you are in the US, High School football can actually be a bigger thing that College or NFL, particularly in areas where there are no local College or pro teams. If you've ever seen the football movie "Friday Night Lights", that's all about just how big High School Football can be. Similarly for "Remember the Titans". So I don't know where your HS AU is based, but if it's somewhere there isn't a college team then they may televise the local game and hype it bigger than anything else in the town. It's something to think about anyway.
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And it looks like she doesn't need me anyway, since there are a couple of women who have responded who are apparently far more all seeing and knowing than yours truly. So I'll take my high horse off somewhere and sit on it.
But I do have one thing that nobody else here has - I have actually played football. Of more than one code. Rugby Union. Soccer. American Football. I've played all three. At least that gives me some perspective that many other people do not have.
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Thanks for answering, Rob. Your description of your experience with the game is very valuable, too! I tend to forget that it's not like the Oz NRL, tackling only the guy with the ball, and there's something bloodless about watching on TV.
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And on a punt return one time, in which I was carrying the ball, I ended up being bent backwards when some large fat dude crashed into my top half. I got about two weeks of physio for a pulled muscle in my lower back from that little event. And you know that I'm not a small guy, so it takes a bit to stop me!
So definitely not bloodless. It's just that the padding and the helmets tend to cut down significantly on the amount of blood that is visible. Unlike Thugby, in which people are always being sent to the "blood bin". The bodies, though, are just as bruised at the end of a game. And yes, some lovely purple ones on occasion.
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HS, college and NFL ball all play 'quarters' and all are concerned with advancing the ball (by either running or passing) in 10 yard increments every four plays.
The main ways that high school football differs are: HS football runs a less sophisticated offense and defense with a smaller playbook (aka fewer diagrammed plays). HS football players tend to be less specialized. By the time a player gets to college they will play a specific position on either offense or defense-a player in hs might play both offense and defense. (It's called "playing both sides of the ball".) HS football is always, always, always played on Fridays. This is important. It's tradition. Trust me on this.
(Is this what you are looking for? Does this help? I'd be happy to answer specific questions.)
Re: found via friendsfriends
Just out of (further) curiosity, under what circumstances might a high school game be cancelled or switched to a Saturday? If ever? If a game is cancelled due to weather, can it be rescheduled?
Can you explain the way the competition is run? ie. Are there town/regional divisions that play against each other before the regional winners go into a state competition against each other, and the winner of that is the...I don't know, state champion or something?
I suppose it would vary from state to state.
Re: found via friendsfriends
They don't cancel football games due to weather. There was a very famous football game played about 40 years back called the "Ice Bowl" because the temperature was in the negative range (that's Farenheit) and the entire stadium was under a foot of snow and ice. The only way a football game would be canceled due to weather is a) for a hurricane, b) for a snow storm of more than 18 inches-24 inches or c) an earthquake strong enough to damage the stadium.
Every football team has a 'bye week' or two during a season. These bye weeks gives teams a rest during the season and can also, in an emergency, be used to arrange a make-up game. Or a postponed game can be canceled for the season.
Can you explain the way the competition is run?
The specifics of this depend on the state but there is a general pattern that I can explain. I'm going to use Philadelphia, PA, USA as an example because, well, it works as an example. Philadelphia has several different leagues within the city and those leagues play in different state divisions. State divisions for high school athletic play are generally organized by size of enrollment. (The bigger the enrollment, the more competitive the division.) A smaller school can petition to be moved up the division of a school with larger enrollment if their program is competitive enough but a bigger school *can't* petition to be moved down to the division of a smaller school.
Philadelphia has a Catholic League (made up of the areas Catholic high schools and a Public School League (made of the areas public high schools). In the Philadelphia area, most of the schools that play football play in the most prestigious divisions because the schools with smaller enrollment are private schools that don't bother having a football team. The Catholic schools and the Public schools play within their league for the regular season. In suburban/rural areas, the school plays in a division with a group of schools that are located geographically close. (Usually no more than an hour away.)
The best teams from every league within any given division qualify for the regional playoffs for that division. The teams that qualify out of the regional playoffs for each division will play each other for the 'state championship'. A state champion will be crowned in each separate division. *Teams from different divisions are not permitted to play each other but teams from different leagues may play each other.*
In addition, a newspaper (though it barely warrants the name) maintains a list/informal poll of the 'Super 25' which is a national ranking of the top twenty-five teams in the country. These teams will never play each other. The list is more of an intellectual excercise/recruiting tool for high school coaches looking to woo prospective players. (A team with a national ranking has more college coaches recruiting from the team.) It is technically illegal to recruit prospective students for a high school team but it is common practice, especially in the cities. (Several sports magazines also keep Top 25 lists.)
Does all of that make sense? Do you have any more questions?
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And thanks!
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How many seconds is too few to start a new play after a touchdown-conversion?
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And thank you so much for answering my questions! :)
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Makes it so much neater!
Thank you! (Again!)
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::bites tongue::
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