politics and the lesser of two evils

[tielan]

Okay, so this is a politics post.

Mostly US politics through the lens of an Australian with marginal political interest. Because we Aussie are cynical bitches, and we regard our pollies with that niggling sandgrain of "are you kidding me?" that is pretty much part of our national psyche, and which produces no pearls at all. Ever.

And, too, voting in Australia is mandatory - if you're registered and you don't vote, then you get fined. As a result, you have to take part in the political process, unlike many other countries where voting involvement is optional. Which means the voting mentality of your average Australian is not "vote for the party who offers us the best deal" or "vote for who I feel passionate about" but "vote for the party who presents the lesser of two evils" because we're Australians, young and free, and damned cynics. (Sure, Turnbull can speak without his foot in his mouth, but he's considerably more dangerous than Abbott ever was, politically because he can speak without his foot in his mouth.)

Watching the way the US Prez Election is unfolding - particularly on the Democratic side, with the #berniebros and #bernieorbust folks who won't vote for Clinton if she gets the nomination (as is looking more and more likely) - is making me realise that "the lesser of two evils" appears to be a peculiarly Australian mentality when it comes to voting.

Which...I do not understand. If I had to pick a candidate, sure, Bernie fits closest to what I believe; the things that he's talked about in his campaign are close to my heart. But he's not going to be the Democratic candidate. (Sorry; he's just not. You're living in post-9/11 America. He's not.) Yes, I have issues with Clinton, but in a throwdown match between her and Trump, I would go Clinton in a heartbeat: the lesser of two evils in a way that counts.

Is this mentality of voting a peculiarly Australian thing? Or (my fellow Aussies feel free to butt in here) just a peculiarly me thing?

Comments

[alexseanchai]

No, no, not at all. I keep hearing that I should, if Clinton wins the Democratic nomination, hold my nose and vote for Clinton, because better Clinton than Trump whichever wingbat wins the Republican nomination. Precisely because she's the lesser of two evils. However, I am not fond of the notion of voting for evil, lesser or otherwise. And let's be honest, my state is reliably Democratic in the presidential election and tiny enough that the Republicans can't be bothered trying to change that. So it's perfectly safe for me to vote my conscience, which in this election is Jill Stein, the Green candidate.

[tielan]

So, if your state was a swing state that could go either way, would your decision to vote your conscience change?

[alexseanchai]

It might. I haven't given the prospect much thought because, except for the 2008 primaries, my entire voting life has been in this lil dinky reliably-Democratic state.

[tielan]

Which is fair.

I'm in much the same state here in Australia, I guess. Except for a few years while I was at uni, my electorate (I guess you'd call them counties in the US) is blue-ribbon conservative in both state and federal elections and has always been. So I've usually ended up voting for whoever I pleased, which usually wasn't the conservatives.

[jelazakazone]

I'm in a pretty RED state. I had one year where I voted for someone while my sister, in a Blue state, voted for Gore for me.

[gaffsie]

During the last election someone said that what Americans saw as a choice between a liberal and a conservative, Europeans saw as a choice between a conservative and a 19th century robber baron...

I don't remember who said it, but it struck me as very true. It's even more on point this year. The choice really shouldn't be that hard, even if it's not the Democratic candidate of anyone's dreams.

[tielan]

I admit, some of the "I will never vote for Clinton" rhetoric I've seen around puts me in mind of a two year-old throwing a tantrum that they can't have their cake, and must instead settle for an apple.

I understand not liking the candidate and wanting someone else, but insisting that Clinton is no different to a Republican seems to me like saying Canada is no different to the USA.

[jelazakazone]

I don't understand these people who are running around saying they won't vote for Clinton. I think it's the same stupidity that has handicapped Obama except it's misogyny instead of racism.

[retsuko]

I didn't know that about voting in Australia! What if you're sick or otherwise unable to do it? Are the fines enforced if you're a citizen working overseas? Is it mail-in ballots or do you have to go in person? (Sorry for the mass of questions.)

I will vote for Hillary, even though I don't particularly like her and her record has some problematic spots. A journalist friend of mine met Clinton's niece and asked what Hillary was like in person, when not campaigning. Apparently the answer was, she's a bitch, but she gets stuff stuff done. I think we need someone in charge who is not a Republican and gets stuff done. I can swallow my distaste and vote for that.

[deird1]

Some minor votes (my local council) are write-in, but major votes (federal and state) are ones that you do in person (although there are absentee options if you can't get there). We have them on Saturdays, all day long, so most people don't find it too hard to get there. And there are often sausage sizzles at the polling booths - so people will go along, vote, have a sausage for lunch...
There are plenty of polling places, too - and the lines don't usually take more than 15 minutes.

If you can't - well, I didn't vote in one local election, and the council sent me a letter asking me why, and reminding me that if I didn't have a good reason, I'd have to pay a fine. So I calmly explained that my senile neighbour had stolen my voting form (totally true), and they said "Fair enough", and that was that.

[tielan]

There are mail-in ballots, but generally the Australian Electoral Commission isn't too bad about not-voting. You can explain you were somewhere else or forgot or something happened and they're pretty easy about it.

And our voting days are always Saturdays, and most voting is held at school halls and churches, so it's not difficult to get to in urban areas, and you can make a trip of it to a city centre if you're rural.

In the cities, a lot of the schools will hold 'sausage sizzles' and cake stalls outside the halls, which cues a lot of jokes about "Democracy sangers".

[sbarmarj]

First, I am ethically barred from participating in party politics so you are getting this through the lens of someone who is pretty much limited to observing the process. (I work for the judiciary, and in my state judicial staff attorneys like the judges they work for are not allowed to participate in party politics or anything that might come before the court. There is a reason fanfic is one of my main hobbies right now.) I can register with a party, though I registered as an independent when I took this job because I know that my judge is really committed to looking impartial. Likewise I no longer attend city council meetings or anything that involves local issues.

That said if I was registered with a party, I would be in the extreme minority in my state so largely my vote in the general election doesn't matter. As for the primary I have loved Bernie Sanders and Hilary Clinton both for years. My political affiliation on FB use to say Bernie Sanders. I loved him hard before the 2010 filibuster and it only grew exponentially after that. That said, I have never thought he was an excellent leader or particularly well suited to the executive branch of government. My feelings about Hilary are more complicated, but I think she is brilliant, pragmatic, and seriously committed to achieving the best outcome possible with the tools at her disposal. I am self aware enough to realize that I wish I was Bernie Sanders, but really I am Hilary Clinton in terms of how I approach my own job. And, finally I don't give a fuck if she is likable--the woman has amassed more experience than pretty much anyone in this country, and the BAMF way she handled the Benghazi hearings proves she has the balls for the job. If you are too insecure to find her likable, thats your personal issue to deal with.

What kills me is what the Republican party had done to itself. They opened the door to the tea party and the crazy right wing to win and now its just so sad. Its not the party of Reagan and Lincoln anymore, of Earl Warren or Margaret Chase Smith. Kasich at least actually has real experaince and a proven track record of making pragmatic choices to benefit his constituents, and he gets that his job means he has to follow the law even when he doesn't agree with it, and of course he is holding on for dear life.

Most people don't vote, and if Bernie fans want to have Trump as their next president, then that is on them. I would just like to see qualified candidates represent both parties and focus on actual issues. Also, Senate if you don't confirm a new justice, first you are making my life super hard, second, READ THE CONSTITUTION AND DO YOUR JOB.

[tielan]

Kasich at least actually has real experaince and a proven track record of making pragmatic choices to benefit his constituents, and he gets that his job means he has to follow the law even when he doesn't agree with it, and of course he is holding on for dear life.

See, this is interesting. Kasich is one of the candidates who's just faded into the background. Even the bean-counters of Five Thirty Eight have barely given him a second glance.

And I'm intrigued that you made the distinction between liking Bernie (and presumably liking his policies) and appreciating that his is not an executive leadership style. Because I don't think most Bernie fans do; as I noted before, the nuance seems to be gone from political discourse.

[sbarmarj]

Yeah, Kasich, and Rubio for that matter, are gambling on carrying their home states, which will probably be swing states in the general election, and then hoping for a brokered convention. I assume Kasich is kissing Mitt Romney's ass right now, and trying to find some type of senior statesman in the Republican party for an endorsement. The Republicans don't really have someone like that so...But, bottom-line Kasich is relying on a hail mary pass here. And, while I think Kasich is qualified to be president, I find his actual politics HORRID for people with uteruses, or people who care about people with uteruses.

I don't think that nuance has ever really been a big part of political discourse at least in the US. My gramma and granpa I was closest to as a kid both held elected office, and were involved in party politics and I always got the feeling that our conversations at the breakfast table were a lot more in depth and balanced than any conversation they had a with a someone in public. I do think that its a thousand times worse than it was twenty years ago for a bunch of reasons, none of which suggest anything good about the American public.

(Also cause I know you will like this, my gramma was a life long democrat, and my granpa was a hardcore republican. They were married for forty-eight years.)

[everbright]

It's slightly weird, but I think the Presidential Elections in particular bring out... um savior politics? Like, 'oh god everything's horrible b/c {reasons}' which depend on your political leanings, and we see how politicians fuck up everyday, so we want someone to come in and Set Things Right. Like we wanna believe in the process, since it's part of the national myth (for liberals at least?)

The Charm of America is that we can Progress to Better Things, even if we're not perfect now. *waves flag*

Obama got people to believe he could do that by tapping into people's emotions through a message of Hope (v. savior like!) Bernie's trying to tap into that too, I think, by having a clear plan of how to Make Things Better (even if in all reality he doesn't have The Sway to pull it off.) I will vote for Hilary if she wins the primary, because Jumping Joe anything is better than those GOP whack jobs, but somehow it's really easy to get sucked into the Culture of Personality American Politicians cultivate. It all becomes very black or white, right or wrong, getting saved or getting damned.