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"How could anyone love a stone in their shoe?"
~ The Stepmother, Ever After ~
~ The Stepmother, Ever After ~
*breathes*
It started with an author called Elizabeth Bear talking about writing the Other without being a dick. Unfortunately, someone pointed out a story of hers which features a magical negro who is 'tamed' by a white woman and stating that it was problematic.
It turned into a big argument about cultural appropriation: who has the right to write about non-whites, how our society perceives and stereotypes the Other (African, Asian, Indian, Oriental, Pacific Islander, Eskimo, Alien), how perfectly nice people can be racist without ever realising it, how it always comes back to the satisfaction and emotional catharsis of white people at the expense of the persons of colour trying to say "I am here, my pain is real, don't ignore what I have to say or dismiss it just because you don't want to hear that you put your foot wrong and might have to apologise."
I'm no good at talking about this stuff - I can't talk about a broader experience, I can only talk about my own experience.
One thing that's repeatedly come up is that white fans feel fandom is their safe space and their place to have fun. That to question the racial assumptions, cultural appropriations, and racist attitudes of fandom is to effectively deny white people their 'safe space', where they can happily squee and post fannishly and never have to question their choices or behaviours or feel guilty about the weight of history upon them regarding racist behaviours, a racist system, and how POC can't hide that they're POC.
And so I sit here and post these thoughts and try to broaden my perspectives and watch as the people who read this journal amble by without ever reading or commenting.
My f-list is primarily fannish. People who like my fic - whatever aspect that might be. People who once liked me. There are a handful of people who are both fannish and people of colour, but they're just that - a handful.
And so I watch the comments rack up on my fiction and wonder if I am the fly in the ointment of my f-list's f-lists.
Am I the crazy lady on the train?
Am I the stone in the shoe?
And if so, are the only options to wince and bear it or to throw the stone away?
Which do you choose?
Do you wince and bear these posts of mine and others like me? Or do you skip over them, safe in the knowledge that tomorrow, next week, next month, I/we/they might post something that you're actually interested in - something that's relevant to you, that doesn't challenge you and your way of looking at the world in any way?
Sometimes I wonder.
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This is because it has been my experience from reading the comments in other posts (not really yours though), that my opinions or rather any opinion that is not in agreement with what the author is saying or is not praising the author is not generally dealt with well. This is not obviously the case all the time and for the most part I cant ever recall you or someone else on your flist being rude to a commenter.
And what I have come to realize is that because, in general I am identified as white, regardless of my history or how I was raised, in what environment or who i grew up with, I am not entitled to share my opinions because at the end of the day I am still white and my plight or suffering or what have you is somehow...not as bad.
I dont know if this is coming out right or if I am going to find my inbox full of angry comments but it seems to me that they are saying my hardships, alienation and other experience is not as bad as someone of color, which I find deeply offensive and very narrow minded.
Now this obviously is a sensitive subject, something very personable and real and private and so I hope I have not offended you.
There is something though, that I have always wanted to bring to peoples attention and that is the story of my grandparents.
They grew up in a county ruled by the British. They were denied the ability to speak in their native tongue and there were rarely, if ever, books available to them in something other than English. They were often beat or killed if they tried to speak their language. My grandmother was forced to learn English and in general my grandparents were treated as second class citizens.
My grandparents are also white. They're Irish.
Not it could be argued that their culture and the British culture is very similar, which it is in many ways but it is also different too. I would like someone like
So I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't consider you the stone in my shoe but there are others out there who are not as nice as you nor as reasonable.
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I don't see anywhere in this post where
I can't speak for
This is not about you.
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Also, never did I suggest that
Also, I am not talking about my experiences here, I made a point to leave them out.
Your response is also what I would consider typical. I am not trying to start an argument, I was simply wanting to share another opinion.
Now I cant really tell from your writing what your tone to me is supposed to be but it seems very hostile and a little rude. If this is not the case then I'm sorry. I would also like to note that it was not my intent to be rude in my previous post nor is it my intent to be so now.
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That should not be taken as making it about you? When people of color make posts about their experiences w/r/t race, it's often the act of dredging up old hurts and painful experiences, and it's very dismissive to come into a post and turn the focus so that it's no longer about that POC but about you. You may not have even realized that that's what you were doing, but that was my impression, and it is very typical response and reflection of your privilege.
I'm not going there with you on my tone. I have not been disrespectful to you.
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I understand where you are coming from, the 'my' wasn't meant to be me but suppose to be those who aren't considered POC in general. In retrosepct I didn't phrase it well, I wasn't trying to make this about me but I was trying to give an example that was different. I was trying to say you can't blanketly say just because someone is white they either dont understand, emphathise or have gone through something similar.
it is very typical response and reflection of your privilege
And by privilege you mean my being white?
I have not been disrespectful to you.
Thank you and I hope I have not been to you because it wasn't my intention.
I would still like to know your ideas on racism vs discrimination though.
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I understand. We have completely didn't readings of this post, because, that wasn't the message I took away at all.
And by privilege you mean my being white?
Yes, your white privilege (http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2006-03-08_146). I highly recommend reading this guide.
I would still like to know your ideas on racism vs discrimination though.
Sorry, I meant to answer your question in my previous reply. I'll just c&p what's found in the link above about the key differences in discriminating against POC vs. whites:
"The same power dynamics that create privilege have created a hierarchy of prejudice so that discrimination against a privileged group is not the same as discrimination against a non-privileged group. This is because discrimination against a non-privileged group is backed up with institutionalized power, whereas discrimination against a privileged group is often a singular act and therefore easier to avoid."
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Oppressed groups (and yes, they are or have been oppressed) Irish and homsosexuals may have been beaten down and discriminated against, but they can pass. Maybe they don't want to. But they can. They can keep their mouth shut or not talk about their sexuality and they won't draw fire for it.
A black person or an Asian person or someone who isn't 'white' doesn't even get the choice to keep their mouth shut. Their very person is a walking, visual, ever-present, inescapable truth: that they are not white.
So, yes, other groups of people, many of them white, experience discrimination; but this discussion is not about them. To make it about them as many people do, some intentionally and some unintentionally(like you), derails the topic to All About Whites again.
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What is important in history is how the people were treated then, not now, which is why using history to prop up an -ism argument is flawed - on either side. When PoC talk about discrimination, I'm more concerned with the here and now, since I cannot change what happened in the past, only how things are now.
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Most people don't question that a white person should always be the hero character or save the day; many don't question that non-whites are always the alien or Other characters, or that the non-whites are relegated to stereotypes or caricatures of people instead of being developed; many don't ask where the pureblood Chinese are in a Sino-American culture, or why there are no Hispanics in So-Cal, or why the main quartet of characters in an entirely Asiatic culture - a culture specifically designed to be non-Western - must be portrayed by white actors, one of whom thinks that all he needs to do to 'pass' as suitably Asian is to get a tan.
These assumptions - those 'pass cards' - are rooted in the racial and racist history of our cultures, in the same way that sexism is rooted in the sexual and sexist history of our cultures. Yes, we bear the weight of history upon us when we enter into these discussions - I think that this linked post looks at the weight of history and how to deal with it, if you're interested.
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I do think that not all "this is how I see it" is necessarily malicious and an exercise in trying to make it all about yourself.
I do get that there are times when it feels along the lines of:
Person A: (stunned) My mother just died
Person B: I know what pain feels like. Did I tell you yet about how when my dog died? Let me tell you all about it!
But other times, I guess to me its just human nature to seek things you have in common. Even if they are indefinitely smaller versions of the real thing. But to me that's just how the mind works. You seek something you can understand and you try to extrapolate it. But you still need that first stone to step on.
Just like, if person A is telling you about how their mother just died, of course you listen and you hold their hand. But you can't really do that forever. At one point you are going to talk to them (though the point might not have been reached yet). And at least for me, when I'm talking to somebody in that situation, I do usually insert things like "This is how I dealt with it" or "This is how somebody I know experienced it". To me, that's how building bridges works. That's how communication eventually works.
I guess I'm trying to say not all of it is ill-natured even in those cases when our tendency to want to be wise-ass comes through (which indeed does deserve to be slapped down. A lot. Hard.).
And there is the other side to it, namely that white people talking to white people might on occasion be good for them. Even if it is boring to POC and therefore maybe should be done in seclusion where POC don't have to read through it while we still try to sort our thoughts.
(visual:
POC (roughly 500 steps ahead): Are you coming now or not?
WP: Be right up, I'm still tying my shoelaces.
(5 hours later)
POC: You know, I'm beginning to suspect that you are just stalling.
WP: *gets huffy and gives a lecture on the importance and history of tying shoelaces while POC bangs head against the wall?
)
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You explained my reasons for sharing my story a lot better than I could have. It was a good explanation for both sides of the argument and I've got a bit of a better understanding why comments like the above can hurtful, even if that's not their intention.
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My mom was offended, and at first so was I (she's my mom, she was just trying to be nice/helpful/condole). But at some point I realized, and told her, that in this case her similar experiences are not the point. The point was, his mother had died. He had had a particular relationship with her that was unique to his childhood; he lost her in a way that was uniquely tragic; and he didn't need anyone to try to share the experience, he needed his experience to be heard and comprehended. I also discovered that if I listened to my husband talk about that loss and talked with him only about what I heard him saying, that helped him a lot more than trying to interpret his words through my own filter.
...and that's the point at which the metaphor fails, because my husband can get past that event in his life. People of color, on the other hand, go on dealing with racism in all its forms.
I don't know. I'm not trying to offer a rule or interpretation or whatever. It's just that having tried to find a way to comprehend what I was hearing by using some kind of shared experience or other experience that I felt I had a better understanding of, I eventually got to the point where it occurred to me that it shouldn't be about me at all. I can't share the experience I was hearing, ever, in any form, because I'm not a person of color, and really it might be more offensive and/or more missing-the-point-entirely to try.
It's kind of like that conversational thing where the moral of the story is 'you're not listening if you're also already composing your own response in your head.' I.e., if I'm hearing something and trying to cross-reference with knowledge already in my mental filing system, I'm not listening. I'm not getting it. So I think maybe I should just only listen, whenever someone speaks.
And as far as eventually wanting to stop tying one's shoelaces and follow, I get that. But maybe this isn't necessarily a question of following. Maybe it's more a question of...after a while you find yourself tying your shoelaces in a more efficient, more secure way because you've been soaking in some ideas from someone else without constantly referring back to what you used to know about how to tie shoelaces. Or something. Er. Yeah, I'm not sure how to carry on that metaphor either. :P
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As thelana says, shared experiences of oppression can be a useful bridge between people - as long as that experience isn't being used to invalidate someone else's experience, which does often happen and is profoundly upsetting and disconcerting.
I would add that some forms of oppression other than race are also visual, and that there are constant attempts to force or require people with "invisible" oppressions to perform them in visually legible ways so that they can be policed and controlled - so I wouldn't completely discount the visual in other cases.
However, every form and experience of oppression is also unique and irreducible.
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I also understand how you could see that what I discussed was outside perhaps what you were asking, which as I understand, was primary about how white people treat POCs, not how white people treat other white people or how black people treat asians or any number of other combination.
I think this goes along the line of what
I hope what I have said above makes sense and isn't offensive.
no subject
As sugargroupie pointed out, though, the tactic of saying "Well, there are other types of oppression in the world, too, that are just as important, and people ignore them!" has often been used to derail discussions about race and racism, colour, and culture - and often tries to turn the conversation to a topic that allows the white people to be oppressed, too, thereby absolving them of any responsibility for the prejudice experienced by POC.