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First, the non-fandom question:
What kind of physical injury would take a cop out of the force entirely? Is there any such thing or would they just move them into bureaucracy or something non-physical?
--
And onto the fannishly-inclined question.
Would the scientists on Atlantis be under some kind of contractual obligation not to disobey or disregard the advice/goals of the military? ie. If, say, Rodney wanted to do something that would go very directly against the directives of the Earth military?
And in a corollary, I imagine there's more leeway for Teyla and Ronon since they're not from Earth, although I imagine that if they didn't just philosophically oppose but also actually acted in opposition to Earth directives (Earth's good first, and the primitives can have the scraps), they'd possibly get kicked off Atlantis, or at least be made to feel very unwelcome by the IOA and possibly some of the city personnel.
That's something that never came up in the show, I don't think - not explicitly. Not the idea that Earth wasn't 100% right, correct, and justified in their actions. Michael was acknowledged as a mistake, but IIRC, there was still a lot of justification flying around as to what they did. I don't think any of the Earth personnel from Atlantis ever actually apologised for what was done to Michael. (Memory is growing fuzzy, here.) And they mostly seemed to gloss over the idea of total annihilation of the Wraith instead of attempting a more moderate genetic modification.
(i.e. rather than making them human or immunising humans from Wraith feeding, why not adjust the rate of feeding and the years able to be taken by the Wraith? If the Atlantis expedition can make a retrovirus that can be disseminated through air and can turn Wraith into humans, then surely they could make and disseminate a retrovirus that would only make it possible for any Wraith to take, say, five years from a human, and which would provide the Wraith with five years of life. Currently, a Wraith drains a person of their entire life and it only lasts them a couple of days, weeks at most, months if they hibernate. Back in S1's The Gift, they mentioned a Wraith scientist trying to make the feeding process more efficient - it seemed like a practical proposition to me. Yet they never followed this up, IIRC. Not even to dismiss it.)
I'm also wondering how far John and Rodney would support Teyla and Ronon if their team-mates went against the directives of Earth - perhaps not putting Earth in direct danger, but doing something that isn't "in Earth's best interests". Would they understand and make allowances for them? Would they argue the IOA down? Would they collude if it was something big enough? Would they just turn a blind eye? If it was big enough an issue, would they disobey?
I know, I know - The Return - but that was just John making the decision to disobey for himself, with (theoretically) no danger to anyone else (although serving up Atlantis' four most knowledgeable personnel to the Asurans on a platter? Clearly neither John, nor Rodney, nor Elizabeth, nor Carson, nor anyone on the SGA writing team had possession of The Logic Circuits that day). This is...well, Earth. Not in danger, but with an "increased risk" due to the actions of Teyla and Ronon, however justified they might be.
--
And finally and most crucially: What do you do with someone who contacts you on Facebook and seems to know all about you, but whom you don't ever remember meeting at all?
What kind of physical injury would take a cop out of the force entirely? Is there any such thing or would they just move them into bureaucracy or something non-physical?
--
And onto the fannishly-inclined question.
Would the scientists on Atlantis be under some kind of contractual obligation not to disobey or disregard the advice/goals of the military? ie. If, say, Rodney wanted to do something that would go very directly against the directives of the Earth military?
And in a corollary, I imagine there's more leeway for Teyla and Ronon since they're not from Earth, although I imagine that if they didn't just philosophically oppose but also actually acted in opposition to Earth directives (Earth's good first, and the primitives can have the scraps), they'd possibly get kicked off Atlantis, or at least be made to feel very unwelcome by the IOA and possibly some of the city personnel.
That's something that never came up in the show, I don't think - not explicitly. Not the idea that Earth wasn't 100% right, correct, and justified in their actions. Michael was acknowledged as a mistake, but IIRC, there was still a lot of justification flying around as to what they did. I don't think any of the Earth personnel from Atlantis ever actually apologised for what was done to Michael. (Memory is growing fuzzy, here.) And they mostly seemed to gloss over the idea of total annihilation of the Wraith instead of attempting a more moderate genetic modification.
(i.e. rather than making them human or immunising humans from Wraith feeding, why not adjust the rate of feeding and the years able to be taken by the Wraith? If the Atlantis expedition can make a retrovirus that can be disseminated through air and can turn Wraith into humans, then surely they could make and disseminate a retrovirus that would only make it possible for any Wraith to take, say, five years from a human, and which would provide the Wraith with five years of life. Currently, a Wraith drains a person of their entire life and it only lasts them a couple of days, weeks at most, months if they hibernate. Back in S1's The Gift, they mentioned a Wraith scientist trying to make the feeding process more efficient - it seemed like a practical proposition to me. Yet they never followed this up, IIRC. Not even to dismiss it.)
I'm also wondering how far John and Rodney would support Teyla and Ronon if their team-mates went against the directives of Earth - perhaps not putting Earth in direct danger, but doing something that isn't "in Earth's best interests". Would they understand and make allowances for them? Would they argue the IOA down? Would they collude if it was something big enough? Would they just turn a blind eye? If it was big enough an issue, would they disobey?
I know, I know - The Return - but that was just John making the decision to disobey for himself, with (theoretically) no danger to anyone else (although serving up Atlantis' four most knowledgeable personnel to the Asurans on a platter? Clearly neither John, nor Rodney, nor Elizabeth, nor Carson, nor anyone on the SGA writing team had possession of The Logic Circuits that day). This is...well, Earth. Not in danger, but with an "increased risk" due to the actions of Teyla and Ronon, however justified they might be.
--
And finally and most crucially: What do you do with someone who contacts you on Facebook and seems to know all about you, but whom you don't ever remember meeting at all?
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I think that as long as a police officer were capable of desk duty of some kind, an injury would only remove him or her from the force if he or she chose not to take that position. For one thing, depending on the injury or disability, the Americans With Disabilities Act might make it so that they'd have to find another position for them, where they could meet the requirements. So, an officer who really, really wanted to be in the field but who was, say, blind, might be offered a desk job but choose to leave the force instead.
Re: the scientists vs military and the "how far would John and Rodney support Teyla and Ronon" question, these are things I've been wondering about too. I've got this whole "fifteen years later" bunny going on, and I'm trying to work my way through what's plausible and what's possible and what's likely.
Since Atlantis is a military outpost as far as the Earth military is concerned, I believe that military directive trumps civilian in some circumstances but not necessarily all. The show started out with a civilian commander and a military commander, and the scientists answered to the civilian commander, who worked with, not for, the military commander.
But in later eps, with Sam and with Woolsey, the chain of command gets hazy for me. John is clearly under Woolsey's command, for instance, despite Woolsey being a civilian, as evidenced in that ep near the beginning of Woolsey's tenure when he has to request permission from Woolsey for the team to go off-world.
I'm assuming this is for a story, in which case I think that with the fuzziness of the writing on SGA, you could probably get away with pretty much whatever you want to do -- put the military in charge so Rodney would be taking a risk by going against them (arguably, you could show it as a risk regardless of who's officially in charge, given the popular characterization of the military as tending to run roughshod over civilians in a military situation) or give the scientists free rein.
Same for John and Rodney. I think their characterization allows for you to write them as backing Ronon and Teyla to the death, or as finding themselves at a line they can't cross between their friends and their loyalty to Earth. Or both, maybe crossing and re-crossing that line as they muddle their way through whatever situation you have them in.
Does that make sense?
And finally, I have no idea. I hate Facebook and Myspace. Maybe just ask them who they are and how they know you?
no subject
Okay, cool. That helps a little. I think. (I needed a reasonable reason for a cop to be off the force that didn't involve her being kicked off - a medical reason seemed best.)
I'm trying to work my way through what's plausible and what's possible and what's likely.
Always a tricky set of questions. Currently, Teyla and Ronon are strongly disagreeing with something that the IOA has decided is for the good of Earth, and I'm presently debating who from Atlantis would toss the reins and go against the IOA's directive - especially since it would be big and difficult and create a shitload of issues regarding questioning of their own loyalties to Earth...
Does that make sense?
Yeah. Fuzzy writing on SGA. Story of the SG universe...
:)
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My father was a NSW cop, injured in the Bathurst bike riots in 1985. He suffered damage to his knee and shoulder from missiles, had numerous operations. He couldn't cope with desk duty because he couldn't sit for any length of time. He was boarded out medically unfit in 1989, aged 42.
no subject
If you dont' mind my asking, what did he do after that? Did he retrain entirely or go into a similar job?
(ie. what are the jobs available to a cop who's opted out of the system, not counting retraining)
no subject
When he went for an increase in his super pension (it was based on a %age of the income he went out on I think), he had to prove he couldn't work by applying for jobs. He went to the old CES and gave them a list of his restrictions. Couldn't sit/stand/drive for any length of time. They said no one would employ him and thought it was a joke that he was being forced to prove it.
Cops these days probably have more options as many come into the police as a second career (my brother being one). But older cops where it was all they'd ever done is a different matter. Security does tend to be an industry where they end up.
Sorry I'm not of more help. Been so long.
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Honestly, though, the show is so terribly written and the chain of command so fuzzy that you could make anything work. :\ Ditto for the characters; given how inconsistent characterization is on the show itself, you could have them do damn near anything as long as you sold it in terms of the plot.
no subject
There was a fairly interesting balance of military vs. civilian - although the instance I usually cite is The Long Goodbye when Caldwell (military) hands over control of the situation to Teyla (civilian, and not even Earth civilian at that) by allowing her to make the decision whether or not to shoot John for the good of the three-hundred people that Phoebus has threatened to kill. And Lorne's subsequence "You got it" to Teyla when she not only instructs him to bundle John off to the infirmary, but tells him how to handle him, too.
But as you've pointed out, it's not very clearly defined - certainly there are no long-term consequences to disobedience by either civilian or military personnel in the show. I just thought it would be good to add a touch of realism to a story.
no subject
I never got the impression that the civilians were supposed to be subordinate to the military; in fact, in the first season, I think it was actually supposed to be the opposite (didn't they even refer to it as a civilian-run expedition at one point?). Actually, on a show that had actual a) continuity or b) consequences, the rise of the military in relative importance from seasons one to three/four would be an interesting thing to meta about, because it *did* get much more militaristic as time went on, but I think that was just because of the kinds of stories they were telling and not any sort of plan.
I'm also not sure what sort of censure a disobedient civilian would face. Military consequences are kind of obvious; civilian, not so much. I think you get a hint, though, with Rodney in "48 Hours" (as well Kavanagh in "Midway"), that what they do with civilians who aren't in their good graces is offer them crap assignments. They have no authority to force a civilian to take an assignment like that, but unless said civilians want to leave the Stargate program and all its perks, they have to take the assignment or quit ...
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It wasn't specified, although I got the impression from Sumner's behaviour that he expected that the civilian would bow to the military in the expedition. Of course, then he died and it went mostly out the window.
because it *did* get much more militaristic as time went on
I saw that as a function of the fact that Atl found itself in an inadvertant war as the years went on. When Sam turned up as commander of Atl, I was kinda hoping for some interesting and varied storylines.
Unfortunately, I kinda forgot who was writing the show. Same old, same old.
no subject
no subject
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I think that as long as a police officer were capable of desk duty of some kind, an injury would only remove him or her from the force if he or she chose not to take that position. For one thing, depending on the injury or disability, the Americans With Disabilities Act might make it so that they'd have to find another position for them, where they could meet the requirements. So, an officer who really, really wanted to be in the field but who was, say, blind, might be offered a desk job but choose to leave the force instead.
Re: the scientists vs military and the "how far would John and Rodney support Teyla and Ronon" question, these are things I've been wondering about too. I've got this whole "fifteen years later" bunny going on, and I'm trying to work my way through what's plausible and what's possible and what's likely.
Since Atlantis is a military outpost as far as the Earth military is concerned, I believe that military directive trumps civilian in some circumstances but not necessarily all. The show started out with a civilian commander and a military commander, and the scientists answered to the civilian commander, who worked with, not for, the military commander.
But in later eps, with Sam and with Woolsey, the chain of command gets hazy for me. John is clearly under Woolsey's command, for instance, despite Woolsey being a civilian, as evidenced in that ep near the beginning of Woolsey's tenure when he has to request permission from Woolsey for the team to go off-world.
I'm assuming this is for a story, in which case I think that with the fuzziness of the writing on SGA, you could probably get away with pretty much whatever you want to do -- put the military in charge so Rodney would be taking a risk by going against them (arguably, you could show it as a risk regardless of who's officially in charge, given the popular characterization of the military as tending to run roughshod over civilians in a military situation) or give the scientists free rein.
Same for John and Rodney. I think their characterization allows for you to write them as backing Ronon and Teyla to the death, or as finding themselves at a line they can't cross between their friends and their loyalty to Earth. Or both, maybe crossing and re-crossing that line as they muddle their way through whatever situation you have them in.
Does that make sense?
And finally, I have no idea. I hate Facebook and Myspace. Maybe just ask them who they are and how they know you?
no subject
Okay, cool. That helps a little. I think. (I needed a reasonable reason for a cop to be off the force that didn't involve her being kicked off - a medical reason seemed best.)
I'm trying to work my way through what's plausible and what's possible and what's likely.
Always a tricky set of questions. Currently, Teyla and Ronon are strongly disagreeing with something that the IOA has decided is for the good of Earth, and I'm presently debating who from Atlantis would toss the reins and go against the IOA's directive - especially since it would be big and difficult and create a shitload of issues regarding questioning of their own loyalties to Earth...
Does that make sense?
Yeah. Fuzzy writing on SGA. Story of the SG universe...
:)
no subject
no subject
no subject
My father was a NSW cop, injured in the Bathurst bike riots in 1985. He suffered damage to his knee and shoulder from missiles, had numerous operations. He couldn't cope with desk duty because he couldn't sit for any length of time. He was boarded out medically unfit in 1989, aged 42.
no subject
If you dont' mind my asking, what did he do after that? Did he retrain entirely or go into a similar job?
(ie. what are the jobs available to a cop who's opted out of the system, not counting retraining)
no subject
When he went for an increase in his super pension (it was based on a %age of the income he went out on I think), he had to prove he couldn't work by applying for jobs. He went to the old CES and gave them a list of his restrictions. Couldn't sit/stand/drive for any length of time. They said no one would employ him and thought it was a joke that he was being forced to prove it.
Cops these days probably have more options as many come into the police as a second career (my brother being one). But older cops where it was all they'd ever done is a different matter. Security does tend to be an industry where they end up.
Sorry I'm not of more help. Been so long.
no subject
no subject
Honestly, though, the show is so terribly written and the chain of command so fuzzy that you could make anything work. :\ Ditto for the characters; given how inconsistent characterization is on the show itself, you could have them do damn near anything as long as you sold it in terms of the plot.
no subject
There was a fairly interesting balance of military vs. civilian - although the instance I usually cite is The Long Goodbye when Caldwell (military) hands over control of the situation to Teyla (civilian, and not even Earth civilian at that) by allowing her to make the decision whether or not to shoot John for the good of the three-hundred people that Phoebus has threatened to kill. And Lorne's subsequence "You got it" to Teyla when she not only instructs him to bundle John off to the infirmary, but tells him how to handle him, too.
But as you've pointed out, it's not very clearly defined - certainly there are no long-term consequences to disobedience by either civilian or military personnel in the show. I just thought it would be good to add a touch of realism to a story.
no subject
I never got the impression that the civilians were supposed to be subordinate to the military; in fact, in the first season, I think it was actually supposed to be the opposite (didn't they even refer to it as a civilian-run expedition at one point?). Actually, on a show that had actual a) continuity or b) consequences, the rise of the military in relative importance from seasons one to three/four would be an interesting thing to meta about, because it *did* get much more militaristic as time went on, but I think that was just because of the kinds of stories they were telling and not any sort of plan.
I'm also not sure what sort of censure a disobedient civilian would face. Military consequences are kind of obvious; civilian, not so much. I think you get a hint, though, with Rodney in "48 Hours" (as well Kavanagh in "Midway"), that what they do with civilians who aren't in their good graces is offer them crap assignments. They have no authority to force a civilian to take an assignment like that, but unless said civilians want to leave the Stargate program and all its perks, they have to take the assignment or quit ...
no subject
It wasn't specified, although I got the impression from Sumner's behaviour that he expected that the civilian would bow to the military in the expedition. Of course, then he died and it went mostly out the window.
because it *did* get much more militaristic as time went on
I saw that as a function of the fact that Atl found itself in an inadvertant war as the years went on. When Sam turned up as commander of Atl, I was kinda hoping for some interesting and varied storylines.
Unfortunately, I kinda forgot who was writing the show. Same old, same old.
military & civilians
The SGC has responsibilities to the IOA. The IOA has *policy* authority over the SGC, but *operational* authority for Atlantis rests with the US Air Force. (Though the IOA can make life miserable for Gen Landry, if they want.)
There are many, many instances in the U.S. armed forces of civilians being in charge of military personnel and military in charge of civilians. (And there are mandatory courses for supervisors who end up in either situation.)
A civilian employee of the Federal government takes an oath to follow instructions, and btw, can be deployed with a choice of either go or resign. Those civilians who are not government employees are generally contractors, and their contracts stipulate that they will follow regs. Or, in the case of the USAF, AFIs (Air Force Instructions). If you don't want to do it, you risk putting the contract in default, which typically gets you fired by your company or the government.
NATO organizations (multinational) have their own rules and regulations, and given a difference between NATO & a country's, I believe personnel adhere to the strictest version. So I think for Rodney & Radek, etc, that would mean that they would follow the SGC's orders unless it conflicted with NATO regs (and possibly the laws of their own country, but I don't know about that one). But I'm not sure on this one for Rodney & Radek, because I don't know if they're actually employed by the USAF or by an organization of their country. That would make a difference to any disciplinary actions.
Liaison personnel are under no *obligation* to do what the U.S. government wants them to do. Until the episode "Midway," Ronon & Teyla could be considered liaisons to the peoples of the Pegasus galaxy and not formally part of the SGC, and so were under no formal obligation to do anything the SGC wanted. Once they started working for the SGC (after their interviews), they -- by agreement, tacit or explicit -- accepted the leadership of Atlantis & the SGC. If they want to break the rules or not follow Woolsey's orders, they would have to quit the SGC.
While the penalties for civilians (government or contractor) breaking the rules are not generally as severe as for active duty, they do exist and are administered. There's a formal disciplinary process for civilians who break military rules when working for a military organization.
What this all means, practically speaking, is that you do what your boss says.
I hope this helps clarify things and doesn't just muddle it all up.
Becky
Re: military & civilians
Incidentally, in the SG1 episode 48 Hours where Rodney is introduced, Jack has him assigned to Siberia; when he protests, he tells Rodney that as long as he's accepting the Air Force's paycheck, he goes where the Air Force tells him to go.
So Rodney, at least, is employed by the SGC (or, at minimum, USAF) at that point in time. I don't imagine they'd have let him go in the years between, esp. not since he ended up in Atlantis.
military & civilians
The SGC has responsibilities to the IOA. The IOA has *policy* authority over the SGC, but *operational* authority for Atlantis rests with the US Air Force. (Though the IOA can make life miserable for Gen Landry, if they want.)
There are many, many instances in the U.S. armed forces of civilians being in charge of military personnel and military in charge of civilians. (And there are mandatory courses for supervisors who end up in either situation.)
A civilian employee of the Federal government takes an oath to follow instructions, and btw, can be deployed with a choice of either go or resign. Those civilians who are not government employees are generally contractors, and their contracts stipulate that they will follow regs. Or, in the case of the USAF, AFIs (Air Force Instructions). If you don't want to do it, you risk putting the contract in default, which typically gets you fired by your company or the government.
NATO organizations (multinational) have their own rules and regulations, and given a difference between NATO & a country's, I believe personnel adhere to the strictest version. So I think for Rodney & Radek, etc, that would mean that they would follow the SGC's orders unless it conflicted with NATO regs (and possibly the laws of their own country, but I don't know about that one). But I'm not sure on this one for Rodney & Radek, because I don't know if they're actually employed by the USAF or by an organization of their country. That would make a difference to any disciplinary actions.
Liaison personnel are under no *obligation* to do what the U.S. government wants them to do. Until the episode "Midway," Ronon & Teyla could be considered liaisons to the peoples of the Pegasus galaxy and not formally part of the SGC, and so were under no formal obligation to do anything the SGC wanted. Once they started working for the SGC (after their interviews), they -- by agreement, tacit or explicit -- accepted the leadership of Atlantis & the SGC. If they want to break the rules or not follow Woolsey's orders, they would have to quit the SGC.
While the penalties for civilians (government or contractor) breaking the rules are not generally as severe as for active duty, they do exist and are administered. There's a formal disciplinary process for civilians who break military rules when working for a military organization.
What this all means, practically speaking, is that you do what your boss says.
I hope this helps clarify things and doesn't just muddle it all up.
Becky
Re: military & civilians
Incidentally, in the SG1 episode 48 Hours where Rodney is introduced, Jack has him assigned to Siberia; when he protests, he tells Rodney that as long as he's accepting the Air Force's paycheck, he goes where the Air Force tells him to go.
So Rodney, at least, is employed by the SGC (or, at minimum, USAF) at that point in time. I don't imagine they'd have let him go in the years between, esp. not since he ended up in Atlantis.