January Talkmeme - Favourite SGA Ladies

[tielan]

theladymore asked about my favorite SGA ladies

My first and most major femme-interest in SGA was Teyla, as can be told from my AO3 works, where Teyla rules the roost, being in 222 of my fics. And in probably at least 220 of them, she's either the POV character or has a major part.



I liked that Teyla was a Pegasus local whose people had chosen a lower-level of technology with the intent of avoiding the eye of the Wraith. It didn't always help, of course, but they lived their way of life and they survived in it. However, Teyla herself was very adaptable, coming to Atlantis, fitting in with the customs and the habits of the people, learning how to use their weaponry and their utensils and their technology, even if she couldn't build a bomb in high school science. (honestly, could you build a bomb in high school? Do you have an IQ of whateveritis that Rodney and John have - which is calibrated to a specific way of thinking and reasoning that is most commonly taught and epitomised in white males?)

I never had much patience for the haters, or the people who sneered that she was a primitive, and I certainly didn't have patience for the people who said that "she was too good for John" and then wrote and promoted stories and art that shipped John with someone else instead of writing and promoting stories about Teyla. 90% of time the whole "she's too good for him" wasn't the reason; it was the excuse.



Teyla got very much shafted in the storytelling. As happens to non-whites and women, the primary stories about her were are about the things that made her different - in Teyla's case, it was her Gift and her non-Earth background. If the writers had been capable of developing a large-scale Wraith storyline, then winding it into her Gift and how she grew from being controllable by a Wraith male, to deceiving a Wraith Queen, to deceiving two ships full of Wraith, then it might have been acceptable. But there was no storyline that the writers could conceive that treated Teyla as a person rather than as a woman and an alien/primitive. (Ronon had the same problem with his alienness. So did Teal'c, back in the day. However this was not a problem with aliens generally since Jonas Quinn - played by the very lovely but very white Corin Nemec - got storylines unrelated to his status as an alien: things just happened to him because he was there.)



Treating Teyla as people (treating women and non-whites as people) and expanding her story was one of the reasons I really enjoyed the Stargate Legacy books put out by Fandomonium: they took Teyla's Gift, asked some very pointed questions about it within the context of the Pegasus galaxy, the Wraith, and the conflict between humans and the Wraith, and then took them to a conclusion that had reasons and logic and hope.

I always recommend the Stargate Legacy book series to people. Because they may love it or they may not, but I certainly did.

--

And then we have Sam Carter!



Sam was my first love in Stargate, and I adored her from the moment she walked in and said that line about the reproductive organs on the inside, and then offered to arm-wrestle with a touch of mischief. By the time she said it took two years and three Cray supercomputers to MacGyver an equivalent to the DHD, it was LOVE.

Most of my adoration of her comes from Stargate SG1, rather than Atlantis, but I liked her in Atlantis, too.

I think we got really lucky in Sam and Amanda Tapping, who, early on, fought for the character to just have storylines, not specific stories about being-a-woman. And that brought in Jolinar, which brought in the Tok'ra which brought in Jacob, which opened a universe of storylines that gave Sam a particular edge that wasn't just about her being 'the girl' on the team.

The importance of Sam and her story can't be underestimated. She was pretty much allowed to be everything - admittedly, she had longevity-of-series going for her, and even the screwups (that whole Pete storyline WTF) gave depth to the character. And she's a mature woman who doesn't have children but isn't seen mourning it - like childlessness is the worst evil that can happen to a woman.



I wrote a lot of Sam Carter fic back in the day; not sure how much of it is up at AO3, though - more of it is probably up at ff.net, where I used to put all my fic.

I do love all the Stargate women - well, all the hero ones, anyway. They needed more time and space in the stories, as well as support. A whole bunch of interesting avenues could have been opened up if they'd been treated like people to whom things happen, not women, to whom things happen because they are female and attractive.

Yes, I still have a beef with the writers of the show, even if it stopped showing 5 years ago.

Comments

[muccamukk]

SGA was such a devil's bargain of a show. It had fantastic women! Who the writers treated abominably! So you'd watch for your girls, and face palm at what happened to them and just... -sighs-

I was saying the other day I came away from SGA fandom with no real hard feelings and five Teyla icons. (And two Ronon, two Sam, two Vala and one Teal'c).

Though I might have a few hard feelings about pitching a role to a woman of colour as "like a Polynesian princess."

[havocthecat]

I had one person say, "Well, I really have looked at what Stargate has done to their women, and I just tell myself, 'At least we get Sam Carter.'"

To which I said, "It's great that we get Sam, and I love her, but it doesn't excuse what Stargate has done with the rest of their women."

(This was before Amanda was told by the Stargate PTB that she could do SGA or Sanctuary, but fuck her if she wanted to work on both shows.)

I hightailed it out of SGA (watching, not the fandom) right after Doppelganger, because if they'd done these things to Elizabeth and to Kate (and Kate got a really shitty, stupid death), then I wasn't going to trust the PTB to do right by Teyla any more, or even to do right by Sam. I really hate that I was right not to trust them. I wanted them to be at least a little better, for Sam to really be the golden girl and Teyla to be the Atlantis golden girl, so that at least one of the women I loved would have good stories and plots throughout the whole series. Ahaha. Haha. Hah.

[muccamukk]

I more drifted away than rage quit. I think it was something to the tune of, "If you don't care about me, then I ain't gonna care about you."

I have up to season four or so on DVD, but haven't actually watched to the end. I just felt like it was going to piss me off, and I needed the energy for other things (like flailing about comics, I think, timing wise).

ETA: Though I can also understand your friend's PoV. I met Sam when I was 14, and I had her until my early twenties, and I always loved her. Having Sam and Susan Ivanova in my teens meant a hell of a lot to me.

[tielan]

While I came out of SGA fandom with a lot of hard feelings, a great dislike of mainstream fandom, and a very good sense of who I was and how I was never going to be in the crowd. *wry smile*

And yeah, that last year, I drifted out. Watched through S4, started S5, but gave up, except for The Prodigal, The Queen, and the last episode. Just didn't have the emotional fucks to give at that point.

[tielan]

It's kind of sad that this is how we have to rationalise our TV shows. "At least..."

(Did you ever get around to reading SGA Legacy? Because they used Teyla and Sam and Keller really well, introduced at least one new WOC, and in the 'sequel' duology, they brought back Elizabeth!)

[havocthecat]

I never did get around to that series. I think it came out during my sick-then-back-to-school phase, where I went from being sick to back to school to a hellishly demanding job. Also...I did not necessarily trust anything the PTB were overseeing.

I heard they were bringing back Elizabeth! But I hadn't heard what they had done with her. I should really go look up spoilers before I decide to read that one. And I do like hearing they used Teyla and Sam and Keller really well, because I love all of those women. :)

[tielan]

Ah, see, the PTB didn't actually oversee the books. In fact, when asked about the books, Joe Mallozzi was all "well, they're not our canon and we have nothing to do with it."

Fandemonium (the company that brought out the Stargate tie-in novels) was started by a fan and her husband (Sally Reeve from Sam/Jack fandom - remember her?), and operates entirely separate to the PTB, although the book plots do have to get approval by MGM. It's actually nothing to do with the people who were running the show, and they have a lot of leeway with the characters.

Can you take my word for it on our years in fandom that what the Legacy authors do with the women and Elizabeth is awesome? Like, her key skill being her ability to negotiate and work out a Plan C? Because seriously, there is one spoiler that turned up and it was really good, but I didn't see it coming at all and that made it even better.

Also: Elizabeth backstory! Real-world Elizabeth backstory that gels! At least one of the authors was in politics for a while, and she gives Elizabeth, Sam, and John real-world backgrounds, real-world reasons.

The PTB would never ever have conceived the endings to either the Legacy series, or the Third Path duology - Elizabeth's books - far too female-centric.

And I just thought of another femmechar that the Legacy books introduced: Mel Hocken - went through ROTC with John, fought at Antarctica with Cam, turns up as Captain of the Daedelus' X303 wing.

I almost feel like I should do one of those power point displays that turns up on Tumblr: why you should read the SGA Legacy book series.

[beatrice_otter]

The thing was, SG-1 had a fairly universal viewership. Hollywood generally breaks things into four categories: young men, young women, middle-aged-and-up men, middle-aged-and-up women. And SG-1 was really strong in all four categories! Now, thee and me might think that was a good thing. But most of Hollywood doesn't; they want the young male group to be REALLY HIGH and don't care much about the rest. And with SG-1 they kind of shrugged and went with it, when the show's demographics became clear; with SGA they REALLY HEAVILY went after young men, and in ways that did really shitty things to the female characters. Especially Teyla, but also the others.

And ... it didn't work. Viewership among women dropped in both age categories; viewership among men didn't grow hardly at all.

[muccamukk]

Yeah. The more I hear about the behind the scenes on that franchise, the more I head desk.

I was dating an army guy at my peak Stargate fandom days, and he couldn't stand SGA because it screwed up all the military stuff so badly. I was like, I love you, honey, but that is the least of that show's problems. I kind of had to agree with him on the outfits. (Though I'd say, even as a die hard Teyla fan, especially Weir. Jesus.)

And then they made SGU! And were like, well young men will like THIS ONE!

They didn't.

[beatrice_otter]

The more I hear about the behind the scenes on that franchise, the more I head desk.

Yeah. The actors, by and large, seem to have been mostly decent people with a mostly decent grasp on story and plot and characterization and not being sexist/racist douches.

The original writing and production team weren't that bad. I mean, Hollywood, but they'd listen to Amanda Tapping and Chris Judge at least some of the time when they complained about sexist or racist stuff. But as time went on, they were replaced by real douchebags who didn't care about characterization or plot as long as they got laughs and fratboy antics and big special effects, and actively disliked their female fans.

[havocthecat]

I don't know, I think Elizabeth and Teyla both got screwed over hard by the show, but in different ways. It's just that Torri finally stopped turning down guest appearances to give herself and the fans closure, and Rachel kept working (and I don't blame her, a job's a job), but the writers gave Teyla a slow, dwindling series of appearances that petered out into utter nothingness. Weir just hit us harder emotionally at the time because it was so sudden.

[muccamukk]

Yeah. It is basically a lesser of two weevils thing.

[havocthecat]

I really hate that we've basically had so many women screwed over by the show that we have actual, honest discussions about which one got screwed over harder. I mean, what the fuck were the writers thinking? Seriously. I mean, I think the only ones that didn't get screwed were Keller and Amelia Banks, and that's only because the show wasn't on the air long enough with them around for them to be screwed by the show. It was like the women were all disposable props for the men's plots, and yet, somehow the majority of the secondary men were all guaranteed to survive. (Except for Peter Grodin. And Aiden Ford. Who were neither of them white. Interesting coincidence there.)

(I am sure you know exactly which Stargate: Atlantis PTB my Cadman icon is directed at.)

[muccamukk]

I would argue that Keller also got screwed over because of that stupid romance plot. Not that I inherently dislike romance in shows, but that one was really dumb, and it really felt at times like the writers only included her so she could date their self insert. The collateral damage to Ronon's characterisation wasn't great either.

I missed Banks, but I'd like to give a shoutout to Vega! Who was simultaneously not allowed to be a lesbian, but was still held up as proof that the writers should get diversity cookies. And then died. Along with most of the other women. Or so I hear. I was gone by then.

Aiden Ford was main cast though. Always thought that was an interesting way to write out a black/native american character. Though of course how else could you do it? It's not like the white guys ascended to a higher plane of being or got promoted or went back to their homeworlds and lived happily ever after.

[tielan]

This explains much.

[beatrice_otter]

Yes. It does.