ponderings on friends and friending memes

[tielan]

I put my name down on the SG1/SGA friending meme.

However, since my favourite SGA character is Teyla and my favourite SGA pairing is John/Teyla, I doubt I'm going to get any new friends out of it. The most-disliked character (or least-liked, anyway) and most-disliked pairing on SGA? Never let it be said that I in any way, shape, or form, run with the crowd! At any rate, I daresay that the other friending meme is going to be a bust for people like myself, who aren't McShep, Shweir, or Teynon (or whatever they're calling it).

I thought about running a friending meme for fans of Teyla: just for fans of Teyla. But I seem to be a bit of a black sheep in fandom these days. Hold the 'wrong' opinions. Say the 'wrong' things. Don't support the 'right' characters or the 'right' pairings in the 'right' ways. Hell, half my f-list avoids this LJ for one reason or another! Do I have any hope of getting total strangers involved in such an undertaking?

And even friends-of-friends would probably be a bust: the people I could count on to propagate this meme don't have large f-lists and aren't heavily involved in fandom. They might not even want to expand their f-lists.

Am I arguing myself out of doing this? Possibly. In fact, quite probably. But the fact is, a lot of Teyla's fans seem to have gone underground - and we who remain aren't exactly the cool kids. Now are we the uncool kids because we like Teyla, or is Teyla just liked by the uncool kids?

(No offence intended to any of my f-list reading this who are Teyla-fans. But you have to admit, we're not exactly a chatty, involved, super-popular bunch. Well, maybe you are! But I'm not.)

So what I'm basically asking is whether there's anyone reading this who'd pimp a Teyla-oriented friending meme, or knows of people who'd answer a Teyla-oriented friending meme run by me. (I think it's a valid question: there are at least three people I know of who are fans of Teyla but would rather slit their firstborn's throat than touch anything I'm involved in.)

It would be nice to expand the f-list with Teyla-fans (preferably productive ones) before the S4 spoilers start seeping out.

---

I was going to watch Heroes: Hiro tonight. But all I wanna do is sleep.

Comments

[tielan]

One of the things that's been instilled in me is the idea that "one does not criticise or con-crit in feedback". So if there's nothing good to say about the story, then nothing is said. But you're right - for someone who really does love a character, people bringing out aspects of fic is a great opportunity for conversation.

However, as previously stated, I don't read much (and yes, it has to do with doing a lot of writing - if I get too many things confused in my head, no writing gets done), so I tend to leave relatively short comments on fic.

I do love it when people respond to my fic with meta/crit, though - and I usually respond with meta/crit. Unfortunately, in 99% of situations, that's as far as it goes. But I do love discussions...it's just that it feels awfully like when I engage, other people back off.

Which sounds like it's emo-whining on my part, I know. But it happens often enough that I begin to wonder if I give off the wrong vibe when laying out my thoughts.

Thanks for reminding me - I'm threading via Gmail, so their responses got lost.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

One of the things that's been instilled in me is the idea that "one does not criticise or con-crit in feedback". So if there's nothing good to say about the story, then nothing is said.

*shakes fist*

I know! Most people have that attitude. I'm actually totally against it. I think friendly concrit or at least *polite asking* should be totally appropriate. If I had issues with a fic, I strongly believe in posting a mixed response. Like first praise the things I did like and then tactfully try to ask about some things I wasn't sure on. Try to find a balance of the nice and maybe slightly unpleasant things I'm saying. And again, I think in the best cases it can lead to the best discussions. I think most people just think a lot about the characters they are writing and only a fraction of what they have laid down in their mind ends up in the story itself. And most love nothing more than to be asked for more details.

I personally love reading other people's characterization discussion. I wish there was a way to engage people to talk about what their take on different characters are and why and in what ways maybe some authors differ. It really is unfortunate that this kind of discussion can be quite tough at times and it's hard to find the balance, to make sure no author gets offended (I understand that that was sometimes a problem on the infamous cutting board thingie). In theory, if it works or worked, I think it could lead to some great stuff.

But it happens often enough that I begin to wonder if I give off the wrong vibe when laying out my thoughts.

:( I wonder about that all the time. For example, I have a tendency to try to phrase everything I say as broadly as possible (because I really think that a lot of ideas or rules can for example be applied to both slash and het, to a variety of pairings or a variety of fandoms). I also try to be really anal about always saying things like "I think", or "maybe" to show that I'm not trying to act like I'm some sort of perfect authority. But at the same time I often fear if that doesn't make me sound very annoying or whether that doesn't actually make my ramblings even harder to read because I'm always trying my best to talk about all potential angles and consider all exceptions and all sides rather than just posting some sort of snappy opiniated piece. But in the end I can only write in a way that is comfortable to me. And in the end, I just wouldn't feel uncomfortable stating my opinions like they are the end of it all and like somebody's opposing opinion can't be valid too.

Sigh. Babysteps.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Sheesh, I clearly haven't slept enough.

For example that in the end was of course supposed to mean either I wouldn't feel comfortable or I would feel uncomfortable and rather than "I wouldn''t feel uncomfortable".

*bangs head against desk*

Did I mention I really hate that you can't edit your comments in livejournal? Because I always make tons of mistakes like that that I notice right after I have hit "post".

[tielan]

I think it's a good thing for some of the comms out there - that if people switcheroo their minds, they have to stand by what they said earlier.

But, yes, when you've made a mistake, or accidentally pressed 'post' or haven't phrased things right, it can be really frustrating.

[tielan]

Heh. When I try 'gently directing notice to areas that might be improved', I get *stony silence*. Maybe it's the way I say it - I do try to be polite. I just don't seem to manage it.

And I surely don't have the time to discuss characterisation, but I do it anyway. I love getting involved in discussions of this kind. Preferably where people don't take immediate offence the moment you suggest that their depiction may not be 100% accurate from someone else's perspective.

*sigh*

Worst reaction I ever saw was a "Lizzie" fan (rabid fan of Elizabeth) who took offence to my observation that the blurbs on Elizabeth for every SGA AU community on LiveJournal were very Mary Sue-like. She got all huffy and unfriended and banninated me forthwith.

Incidentally, you wouldn't happen to be a Bats/Wondy shipper, would you? :)

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I'm actually pretty freeflowing as far as comic couples are concerned (in fact that only one I actually dislike I Superman/Wonderwoman, though I do like them as friends). But, yeah, I rather like Bats/Wondy. I was rather disappointed that they didn't do more stuff with them in the comics. I think some pretty interesting storylines could have come out of it. It would have been interesting to see her fit in with the Batfamily or to see Bat take on some of the mythological foes Diana has. :(

I don't really have good advice on how to properly interact with people. I guess I have had my share of run ins. I do believe in again, saying something nice first, so establish a certain "we *are* on the same side at least in some areas" basis. And I believe in trying to state general things. Like "I do like AUs, but I want the characters to still be recognizable. I prefer AUs that just change a minor thing" or "Sounds nice, but I generally don't like AUs too much" or "I'm in Atlantis for the SciFi, real world AUs or Fantasy AUs aren't really as interesting to me; it's too far removed from the world as we are seeing". I don't really believe on commenting on stuff that it totally opposite of my taste. For one, I most likely won't have read it and I don't feel comfortable commenting on stuff I haven't read. And I believe that generally, there's this whole idea of shipper bias that I think exists for every ship. There are just certain things that will only make sense or only be interesting if you are already a shipper of that ship. A lot of ships develop their own fanon so to speak and can occasionally be rather unreadable to fans who aren't buying into that fanon or aren't aware of it.

I guess I generally feel more comfortable on criticizing things that I think I have some knowledge/authority on. As a Teylafan it would bug me if somebody wrote her as a MarySue and I'd be able to talk to a fellow Teylafan about it. And if there is weak Weir characterization, then I think it's up to the fans of Weir to "clean that up".

I do think that discussion between different ships can potentially be interesting and could lead to some interesting character discussions and insights. But just like with the fic discussion it can be a very, very, very tricky thing to do and it is certainly easier if one already has a friendship or some other sort of common base with the other poster.

I think it's often that somebody else's take on a ship or character is *wrong* but rather that each character has a variety of characteristics and each shipper fraction focuses on different aspects and weighs them differently. The character aspect that a Shweir fan might consider completely essential might be something that a Jayla fan considers totally unimportant and vice versa. And that can sometimes make discussion rather complicated.

One thing that I always do wonder about (but I don't know whether it would work) would be if somebody could stand up and say directly:

- Okay, I know I have prejudices and insufficient data. These are the prejudices I have about this particular other couple: Proove me wrong.

Like:

() There are no Ronon/Teyla fans. All R/T fans either are Ronon fans or are really Shweir fans or McShep fans who are just pretending to be R/T fans or just shipping them as an unimportant side couple. [intention: Please, please, please proove me wrong, because I want to converse with a fan from a different opinion who is actually interested or serious about it]

() Most Shweir fic villainizes or "parks" Teyla. Most Shweir fic makes Weir silly and whiny. There is no good Shweir fic with a strong, yet flawed Weir that realistically addresses the power issues. [intention: Rec me a fic that proves me wrong. Of course if you call something like that out then you have to be ready to actually read the recs you are handed]

Or heck just a "I'm potentially interested in [this couple]. But I have the following issues A, B, C. I'm worried that the shippers of [this couple] don't address these issues. So, shippers of [this couple], why do you like them and what are your thoughts on A, B, C".

Of course the downside of this is that many people don't like being called out like that. And of course you must actually *want* to know what the other side thinks.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I guess to me any discussion is about trying to find that overlap. And intellectually there should be an overlap. Like, shouldn't both R/T and J/T fans agree about loving Teyla? If the R/T fans really loved Teyla, shouldn't there be parts that would also be interesting to a general Teylafan? Like I can see how maybe a smutty R/T wouldn't be interesting to you, if you are searching for something that has some sort of deeper characterization for Teyla. Or how a "sparring leads to R/T sexing" might not be satisfying to you because even if the story was good, your heart would still want it to be J/T instead. Or how a dark sexy Ronon might not work for you, because to you the playful Ronon is more essential than the hunkish Ronon. But still, I'm sure there could be angles to R/T that could be interesting. How about them as friends, as warriors, as people from an to us alien culture, as people who have lived with the Wraith all their lives, a fic that focused on that aspects might be intellectually interesting as far as characterization goes even to a general Teyla fan.

Or Teylafans and Weirfans, shouldn't there be at least agreement and common ground that both sides want more strong characterization for females? Or more focus on them rather than on McShep? Or both want more fic where the women are written as strong and capable?

Yet sadly even when there *should* be common ground it often doesn't work that way. Because often it seems issues spring up that divide people more and the things that should unite them don't click in because people are too busy disliking each other over the other things.

[tielan]

I think it's also a perception of 'limited resources'. If people are busy concentrating on Teyla, they can't concentrate on Weir. Particularly in the Stargates, "women" have a very limited allotted screentime. So if one is getting 'more attention' then it must be being drawn 'from attention that should rightfully be the other's'. Possibly this is also a function of "There Are No Strong Women Characters In Stargate So I'll Just Focus On The Men" syndrome. laceylaces mentioned it below (or in the previous post): the women on Stargate always face much more demanding scrutiny from fans (mostly female) than their male counterparts.

How about them as friends, as warriors, as people from an to us alien culture, as people who have lived with the Wraith all their lives, a fic that focused on that aspects might be intellectually interesting as far as characterization goes even to a general Teyla fan.

Believe me, this is something I want to write and haven't yet seen. (Possibly because I'm not looking for it.) Teyla and Ronon as 'just friends', working together and having to get out of a situation (or having to get others out of a situation) without the Earthers.

Too many stories to write! Not enough time to focus on them! ARGH!

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that whole "women get more scrutiny" thing is kind of universal. You can see traces of it on a lot of shows (Buffy, Veronica Mars, CSI...). I don't really blame people who are more into the male characters. I can see how having a sexual attraction to a male character can be a powerful motivator. But there's a difference between just being less interested in the female characters and being actually mean to them.

Then again, the fans or female characters are actually often more likely to be mean to each other and put the other female character down to pull the one they prefer up. It kinda goes back to every big soap opera pairing war.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

BTW, what I'm describing is a situation that is totally particular to me personally. Since I don't write or create fanart of produce in other ways, feedback is my main way of contributing to the fandom and therefore I probably put a lot of additional thought in it and can potentially spare the time for more in depth feedback and discussion.