racial/american bias in Stargate Atlantis?

[tielan]

It's recently come to my notice that the manner in which 'native races' are portrayed on Stargate is, if not racist, then certainly strongly jingoistic.

This is going to focus on the broader perception of races and how they get portrayed in the show - mostly Atlantis, although SG-1 will be in there, too.

Basically, it seems that the native races of Pegasus are either technologically inept (primitive) or 'the bad guys'.

We have societies like the Athosians, who are still in the 'hunter-gatherer' stage of civilisation, who are on the side of the Atlantis expedition but primitive; and at the other end of the scale, we have societies like the Gennii, who are close to the 'information revolution' stage of civilisation, but are at best wary allies, and at worst, frank enemies.

Then there are the Satedans, who must have had a pretty technologically advanced civilisation before the Wraith took them out - Ronon's weaponry speaks to that - but who don't even get a mention on the 'we could pick over their bones and see if they developed something we haven't' scale. Hell, I don't think anyone's mentioned even asking Ronon if they can take apart his weapons to see how they tick.

Granted, Ronon's likely to look at them and say flatly, 'No,' but the man came from a world that nearly fought back against the Wraith! Just because he doesn't speak much doesn't mean he's a savage. He's probably no more of a savage than any man who comes home from his work, sits down in his lounge chair and can't be prevailed on for more than a grunt or a dozen before dinner, let alone bed.

The episode that's supposed to deal with Ronon's background will be interesting: if only because it took them about 30 episodes to even revisit Teyla's background with the Athosians, and they were relegated to a side plot, a funeral, and some very lovely singing by Rachel Luttrell that had almost no relevance to the plot.

The race issue is another thing that's slowly been coming upon me.

SG1 - Teal'c is the 'native guide' - black, primitive people.
SGA - Teyla is the 'native guide' - mixed race, primitive people.
SGA - Aiden is the 'yes, man' - black
SGA - Ronon is the 'grunt and muscle' - with a polynesian background (? I think - but even if not, the point with Teal'c, Teyla and Aiden still stands)

You know, I'm waiting for the episode where they come across an Asiatic civilisation that's either run like the Japanese samurai or full of Asian crime gangs.

It's a bit worrying, not that there are characters who are relegated to the background and they're non-white(other characters are background, too: Janet, Carson, Zelenka, etc), but that the non-white characters seem to be inevitably relegated to the background in the Stargate universe.

To some degree, I'm sure it's symptomatic of TV shows: white people want to watch white people. Still, I find it disturbing that the nominated 'leaders' of the primitive peoples - and therefore their representatives - are almost always non-white. (Plus, the leaders of the 'white people with civilisation' are evil if their cultures aren't.)

Finally, I'm curious about the fact that the 'jumper driver seat is on the left. Not all civilisations drive on the right-hand side of the road. It's like the assumption that people in the Northern Hemisphere have that birds fly south for the winter, and that things get warmer the further south you go.

Atlantis does not necessarily have to be in the northern hemisphere of its planet. I mean, it very well may be - I haven't studied the shots of the planet all that well. But, coming from the other half of the planet (where Christmas is in summer and we build our houses facing north for the best sun) I think it would be cool to have all the people from up north completely turned around by the fact that the sun's path lies northwards and not south, while the people from the southern hemisphere are all "what are you guys going on about?" While secretly snickering behind their hands.

The idea of a culture that influenced Earth (instead of American-Earth influencing it) is intriguing: but it would have been nice to see some of the standards turned upside down - perceptions changed and rearranged - to make people think.

And if you can sandwich some perception adjustment in between entertainment, I don't think that's entirely a bad thing.

Comments

[meyerlemon.livejournal.com]

Randomly, are you Canadian? Because in my culture (American) "colored" tends to be perceived as a really offensive term-- I mention this only because if lots of Americans are going to read this, you may want to swap it out for "person of color".

[tielan]

Australian, actually.

Thanks for the headsup, though.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

but it would have been nice to see some of the standards turned upside down - perceptions changed and rearranged - to make people think.

Apparently, that's what fanfic is for...

Yeah, it'd be nice if there was occasional evidence that the writing crew remembered that Ronon is from a culture that was at least as advanced as Earth's, if not *more* so. Skyscrapers, body armor, and energy weapons = high-tech society.

Also, given the racial mix of the Satedans we've seen, it'd be nice if their culture was some funky blend of African/European/Polynesian.

[tielan]

Well, fanfic can change minds - assuming people are reading the stuff in the first place.

It would be nice to see something different at the source for a change. Then again, this is the Stargate PTB, they're not exactly innovators when it comes to television.

[grav-ity.livejournal.com]

Good points, all around.

When Star Trek The Original Series frist aired, it was split up as follows:
Starfleet: Americans
Klingons: Russians
Romulans: Chinese
Vulcans: Japanese

I don't think that requires much more of an explanation....

I always thought it was just Something That Happened (like how the bad guys in The Lord of the Rings come from the south and are dark haired/Asian), but then it showed up on Jeopardy, of all places as a question (The Boy said "So, what are Canadians then? and OB-Wan and I immeditately responded "The Q" together).

I don't think that Atlantis was deliberate (mostly because it can't), I think it was unavoidable. Chris Judge is ON RECORD saying that he always complains when they cast someone white people to play Jaffa or System Lords (although he made an exception for the awesomeness of Anna Louise Plowman) (this dates back to the end of season four).

We accept type casting now to the point where LL Cool J can survive "Deep Blue Sea" and make sarcastic comments about it the whole way through and when Elizabeth tortures someone it's all "Oh Noes! Eval and Dark Lizzie!!1!!!", but when John and Caldwell are all "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD TORTURE HIM" it sinks without a ripple.

I don't really pay attention, to be honest, although I am getting a little sick of the Victorian Villain thing that seems to be happening this season. What we need is....that jewel thing from "To Serve A Queen" or something. And then John can be all "I don't understand these people!" and Lizzie can get field time and Ronan can maybe hit something and Teyla can...and there we go again!

Random: the first inter-racial kiss to air on TV was between Captain Kirk and Lt. Uhura, and Gene Roddenberry had to sneek it past the network censors.

[wolfgrin]

Randomly browsing-- Canadians are absolutely, definitely The Q. *snaps fingers*

[toasteronfire.livejournal.com]

I was under the impression that the Athosians used to be more technologically advanced but they either chose or were forced to become more primitive and nomadic to flee the wraith. I don't know if that's canon or speculation though. It might have been hinted in Rising when Teyla lit the torches with that device.

One thing I've never understood is how the background characters - both scientists and military - on Atlantis are almost always Caucasian. One would think that there would be more diversity seeing as how this is more of a global team. I imagine the real life answer is that they have a limited actor pool of stand-ins over in Vancouver, but I do wish TPTB would make more of an effort.

[tielan]

Ooh, yes, the lighter thing. Don't get me started on that...

I've never heard that interpretation of 'Rising' actually - the fans and the writers seem to have mostly dismissed the Athosians as 'not worth their time' with the implication that they're 'primitive', in spite of the lighter thing (there's been no reference to any other technological advancement by the Athosians since then).

And I fully agree that it would be nice to see a few non-white faces in the expedition team, although I can see why there'd be difficulty in finding non-white actors to play them.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

FWIW, I can actually deal with colored better than "mulatto" - mixed would be more acurate to describe Teyla (and Rachel Luttrell herself). Jason Momoa (Ronon) is part Hawaiian (or Pacific Islander if we're going to get technical about it). And don't get me started about how Aiden suddenly became more interesting when he became a crackhead in space.

Anyway, I always found it annoying that of all the planets SG-1 featured, there was not one that had a majority POC population (except for the episode "Emancipation" in season 1). Because what I, as a viewer, was being asked to believe was that people who looked like me never, ever left the planet Earth or even were out there somewhere in space.

It's not just in these shows; printed science fiction was always replete with this. One of the reasons that I loved Deep Space Nine so much was that it showed that the Federation was really made up of differently colored people.

There's the part of me that tries not to engage so much in figuring out just why casting directors cast in the way that they do. I'm happy if the POC character doesn't die before the end of the flick at this point. But the whole "we've come to your galaxy and we're way smarter than you" vibe that the Atlanteans sometimes put out is annoying to the extreme, especially when those so-called "primitive" mostly dark-skinned folks are the ones who've survived the Wraith in spite of all the odds being stacked against them.

I'd like to think that the Athosians have some useful tech that they don't show the Earth people (like Teyla's lighter) because, quite frankly, would you show everything you had to the crazy people who just came through the Stargate?

For a little more information, here's the link to the memories section (http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=deadbrowalking&keyword=essential+dbw&filter=all) of deadbrowalking, which is a comm that talks about POCs in Sci-fi, fantasy, and horror. There's an article there called "The People that Writers Don't See" that talks about casting in shows like Stargate.

[tielan]

Sorry about the terminology if it offends you - it wasn't meant to do so.

To be honest, I don't know what terms to use - if we're describing by skin colour/racial type, then I just use whatever's to hand; and coming from a country where there's a different emphasis in the history of race conflict and dominance, I'm not conversant with the positives and negatives of the terms I used in the essay.

I'll check the link out later - the questions of race, colour, culture and perception are interesting to me, particularly in the current climate of racial suspicion and the issue of how nationality is determined - and what might trump it (eg. the Kings Cross bombers in London who were brought up English, but were persuaded to 'take up arms' against the country they'd surely been brought up to think of as their own).

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry if this makes very little sense. I'm still pretty damn sick right now and I wanted to comment before I forgot.

I was actually under the impression that the majority of the Pegaus galaxy had some degree of technological advancement. Most of the society's we see (dead or living) have tech. The two big exceptions I can think of are the Athosians (and don't the cave drawings in The Rising point to them having tech along the way that the cullings destroyed?) and the planet of kids with the shield, also unsurprising since the population shifts so often.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

While I can't say anything to just why all the main Earthlings are white, with the exception of Ford, it makes sense that the other world humans like Teyla and Ronon are mixed. Since the Wraith cull them, it leaves very few people to make more babies and thus everyone eventually is mixed. Or as Stephen Colbert likes to point out, eventually, we'll all look like Soledad O'Brian.

While I fully supported getting rid of Ford (his character was boring, imho), it does make their cast of Earthlings completely skewed racially.

I think they have the same problem with women as main characters. Especially since the Wraith have Queens.

[saeva.livejournal.com]

Except that all the Genii are white. Perna's people from Poisoning the Well are all white that we see. It would make sense -- but it's not consistent and where it's not consistent the more technology advancement there clearly is the more likely the people are going to be represented as white.

- Andrea.

right or left seat

[laceymcbain.livejournal.com]

Finally, I'm curious about the fact that the 'jumper driver seat is on the left. Not all civilisations drive on the right-hand side of the road.

Actually, I assumed it had nothing to do with that, but only that aircraft of any type are typically flown from the left. (Hubby's a flight instructor.) That's an international thing as far as I know - Brits don't fly from the right seat (although many airplanes have dual controls). Actually, the only thing that surprises me about the puddlejumpers is that they DON'T have dual controls, which would make training someone to fly much easier.

As for the rest of the ideas about race, etc., I think that some of it is simply our North American default (I'm Canadian) to seeing caucasians fill primary roles, but I suspect it also has to do with having a limited casting pool. I actually think they've done pretty well in terms of incorporating diverse-looking and sounding people (at least in the regular cast) without making it seem token.

Re: right or left seat

[laceymcbain.livejournal.com]

Although while I'm thinking about it, they really haven't provided much for visible minorities from earth as Teyla and Ronon are from Pegasus. Hm. There's room for improvement, obviously.

As for the tech advancements (or lack thereof), I can believe that development has been slower or limited because of the cullings. It would be hard to advance because your people kept getting wiped out.

[lemonbella.livejournal.com]

It's interesting to note that the original Dr Ingram (before he was replaced with McKay) - was designed to be an African American. They apparently had trouble finding an actor to suit the role.

That's not to say there aren't good non-white actors out there, (the rest of the cast shows that) but I expect it's a smaller pool, perhaps less experienced (because of wider racism in society making it harder to gain experience and get to the top - as with many careers) , and that may explain some of the casting bias, if nothing else.

TV programmes do tend to mimic the society in which they function, not because 'white people want to watch white people' (although I suspect there are many TV execs who believe that) but because society creates a biased framework and context in which they can function.

For instance, if you want to portray a realistic representation of an elite military/civilian unit - the colour (and gender)of that is going to reflect the real-life bias. Moreover the colour (and gender) of the actors you have to choose from is going to be a biased one too, because it comes from that society with so much in-built bias. That doesn't mean it's right not to counteract that 'real-life' bias, just that it's another explanation rather than direct racism or sexism.


The 'native' aspect of this has always sat quite uncomfortably with me. For the first few seasons of stargate, the Jaffa nation was almost exclusively black and the Tokra race almost exclusively white. The slavery vrs freedom fighter aspect of that has always made me squirm.

I often think it has less to do with direct racism and more to do with deeply seated 'norms' which facilitate storytelling. (Whether those are any more defensible is open to question) For example, is it that to the vast majority of people a black face is shorthand for supression? and therefore it becomes a way to tell the story in a simple way? I could say the same about the shorthand of English=Evil in much of Stargate (and an awful lot of North American television/film) although I don't think that norm is as worrying.

In terms of your natives = technologically backward, line of thinking. What's interesting is that for much of SG1 it was actually the other way around. It was Earth who are the technologically backward people, and the 'aliens' were all better equipped and more experienced. The premise of Atlantis I think has turned that on it's head, rather than a deliberate intention.

okay, that was all fairly incoherent. I apologise.

[rydra_wong]

I often think it has less to do with direct racism and more to do with deeply seated 'norms' which facilitate storytelling.

I'd guess that none of it is "direct racism", in the sense that the PTB involved would undoubtedly be appalled if anyone accused them of consciously thinking that non-white people are alien or primitive.

But that doesn't rule out a vast body of entirely unconscious assumptions, which may co-exist with the best conscious intentions.

And it's not, I think, that the Stargate PTB are somehow especially bad in this respect: these are assumptions and images which are part of the culture, which tend to soak into everyone unless they're consciously questioned.

But the first time I saw "Children of the Gods", the SG-1 opener, I was just ... *flails hands around* ...

OK, you have a set-up where the brown-skinned quasi-Egyptian guy sends the huge black warrior guy out to kidnap women (including a white blonde American woman and the "native" wife of one of Our Heroes), who then get kept in a room where they are apparently forced to wear flimsy clothing and lounge on cushions, before being selected, brought before him, stripped naked and laid out on an altar-type table (and that's before we even get to the phallic snake-thing) ....

And it didn't occur to anyone at any point that this scenario might bear, oh, a passing resemblance to a zillion Orientalist harem/rape fantasies? Which might, just might, involve some assumptions about race and gender which are not entirely in keeping with modern thinking?

*flails hands around even more, having been failed by words*

I don't think you have to say, "OMG THEY ARE ALL RACIST BASTARDS!!!", because really, I doubt that they are. They are probably lovely liberal-minded well-meaning people. But that doesn't mean the shows don't have some significant racial issues.

[saeva.livejournal.com]

There's two things you missed, I think, that so entirely make your point:

1) This is a convention of science fiction in general. The Star Treks, Andromeda, even BSG. The warrior culture will almost always be dark-skinned with a few light-skinned exceptions. Even if they're technologically advanced they're primarily warriors.

(In BSG you see this in the fact that the POC we tend to see -- and there's very few to begin with -- are 'yes, people' like D and Gaeta, Grace Park -- Asian descent and plays a cyclon, and crime lords like the large, rapper-esque guy in the second half of S2. It's not that only POC are villianized but that when they do show up -- Yeah.)

Atlantis isn't alone and it's very much a product of its surroundings like that.

2) When we do see technologically -- relatively -- advanced cultures in SGA and SG1? They're white. Genii? White. Perna's people from Poisoning the Well? White. The people of "Icon"? White. Jonas's people? White. Tollans? White. Abydonians? Not white. Jaffa? Not white. Athosians? Primarily not white.

I mean, it's a little strange that all the Genii are white. They even speak more like "us" when "us" is the US American audience.

All of it's just -- I try not to pay too much attention to it because it makes my head hurt. But I am writing a SG1 fic right now with a population that has technology which can blow Earth out of the water (proverbially) that isn't white except a very same portion of their overall people (all located in about the same coldish area). Because. Yeah. It makes sense that most populations aren't going to *be* white.

- Andrea.

[lemonbella.livejournal.com]

Whilst you're definitely right in it being a science fiction convention, I think perhaps it has more to do with the desire for science fiction to be 'realistic' in terms of it's real world comparison. If you were to look at the galactica, enterprise or SGC equivilents in the real world - the real-world parallels Sci fi tries to mimic - they would be grossly under-representative of non-white people, because society is inherently racist in many ways.

That doesn't mean fiction shouldn't try to buck those real world trends, (what's the point in fiction if you can't change things that matter?) but it might be an alternative explanation than simple direct/indirect racism.

[unnua.livejournal.com]

There isn't much I can add to this discussion, except to note that yes, the portrayal of race in SG-1 and especially SGA is so blatantly, blatantly offensive that it boggles my mind that the show runners seem to be unaware, or at least unashamed. And yet in a way it is totally understandable, because Western society conditions people, you and me and all of us, not to see these things even when they are so painfully obvious. To get yourself free of societal conditioning is a lifelong struggle, so let's get down to work. Maybe by the time I die I will have gained some measure of psychological freedom, some small grasp of reality.

[tielan]

I understand why it's so easy to develop 'universes' like this - our mindsets are hard to change, let alone dissolve.

Granted, there are considerations of actor pool and what people will watch (and therefore will pay for) but, as I noted in the initial essay, it wouldn't be that hard to sandwich a little counter-conditioning in between the layers of average expectation.

I guess I am, like you, somewhat surprised at the lack of awareness of the portrayal - and the lack of willingness to try something new.

Then again, TPTB of Stargate have occasionally 'somewhat surprised' me - and not in a good way.

[indian-skimmer.livejournal.com]

There's a certain canon-historical force that you haven't counted for. The Jaffa we see certainly in the first few seasons are all soldiers of the Egyptian/African gods (Ra, Horus, Apophis) so it would make complete sense for them to be of African extraction.

The samelogic would apply to "an Asiatic civilisation that's either run like the Japanese samurai", since it would have had a similar cultural genesis to Earth Japan, it's quite plausible it would have developed in the same way.

As the Goa'uld we've met have become more diverse, so have the jaffa

Both the Ethosians and the Satedans we've met have been of all races/colours/extractions, so I'd be inclined to say the casting of coloured actors in those roles was simply due to finding the best person for the job rather than having a pre-determined racial agenda.

"...but who don't even get a mention on the 'we could pick over their bones and see if they developed something we haven't' scale."

As you mention, they're getting to that. I think it's an ep they just didn't have time to do this year.

And while we're on the subject of pre-concieved ideas about groups of people...

"...all the people from up north completely turned around by the fact that the sun's path lies northwards and not south, while the people from the southern hemisphere are all "what are you guys going on about?" While secretly snickering behind their hands"

Just how dumb do you think people who live above the equator are? The sun moving in a contrary manner in the Southern hemisphere isn't that difficult a concept to grasp, or one that's going to leave us reeling if we're shown it on TV.

[saeva.livejournal.com]

To your last point -- most of the people I went to undergrad with were *blown away* by a) the fact that Australians still celebrate Christmas in December if they knew December was summer there or b) that December is summer there. I think it's a valid point.

"I'd be inclined to say the casting of coloured actors in those roles was simply due to finding the best person for the job rather than having a pre-determined racial agenda."

But WHY would these people be the "best" people for the role? That's the question. In Christopher Judge's case it isn't a matter of acting -- the man can pull off almost anything -- and in all her interviews Rachel Luttrell is nothing like Teyla Emmagan so it seems reasonable she could have played nearly any role.

The question is why is very important. And the why, frankly, leads back to a pre-determined (if unconscious) agenda.

- Andrea.

[ladyjax.livejournal.com]

Since I brought up the LeGuin/Earthsea kerfluffle (and since it dovetails a lot of this discussion), I'm giving y'all a link to this essay:

Shame (http://www.infinitematrix.net/faq/essays/noles.html) by Pam Noles

If you haven't heard of it or read it yet, give it a go. Noles breaks down what it was like for her to be Black and love sci-fi and fantasy and have to wrestle with how limiting it can actually be:

If I haven't "left these people after all this time," my Mom said, then what I need to do is accept that I'm stuck with the way things are. I can look at this current world of genre and keep whining, or I can take note of the positive changes that have come down over the years and hope that more will come in the future. And if it matters that much to me, I've got to figure out what I need to do to bring that future into being rather than just waiting for it to magically appear.

Apparently some people were not happy with her essay and she made a follow-up post in her blog: The Shame of Earthsea: A Public Response To What Some Folks Are Saying About That Essay (http://andweshallmarch.typepad.com/and_we_shall_march/2006/01/the_shame_of_ea.html)

[rydra_wong]

Just to add to that, Ursula LeGuin's website has a handy mini-index of her essays and public statements about the Earthsea miniseries (and she links to the Noles essays as well):

http://www.ursulakleguin.com/Index-EarthseaMiniseries.html

[shusu.livejournal.com]

Racially: I think it's the acting pool. As mentioned, McKay was originally Ingram, of Black descent. If casting directors need muscle, they will hire *muscle* and it may just be statistics or chance that the Caucasians with stunt/dance/martial training are working as stunt doubles and not throwing their hat in the SG auditions. A counterexample is Adrian Paul in Highlander the Series -- he's disgustingly fit and slipped in easily as the leading man. Purely for argument's sake: if they could find the white guys, they'd cast them in those secondary roles. Maybe they just can't.

The CVs of these actors also emphasizes quality -- half the cast has British and/or stage experience. Hooray for Canadian casting -- it's incestuous but not in the same way as L.A. casting. Having fan-survived through the X-Files switch from Vancouver to L.A., I can attest to that difference.

I'm also wondering if the Black actors were pursuing other acting opportunities, since TPTB have mentioned that it was partly RSF's decision re: Ford. Plus Bates might come back.

That said, the "face" of SGA is still one military guy, one science guy, and two indigenous people who happen to be non-white. That does a lot better than Friends, doesn't it? Because hey, there are no Black people in New York City.

Ethnically: Someone pointed out some weeks ago that given the legend=fact bent of Stargate, many of the great civilizations of Earth were made up of people of color. In Inferno, there was an Asian leader of a mostly-Caucasian alien race. That some planets are culturally homogenous makes sense plotwise. SG personnel-wise, since I am paying attention to those country patches, it makes *political sense* to have core nation-states heavily represented, because those are the states that can afford to classify a Stargate program.

However! What is suspect to me is the casting of Ancients. [Note: I've not yet seen those particular episodes.] And particulary the lead role. Weir and McKay at least were recurring roles. The *Wraith* have more genetic variation (blue, blue-green, orange...)

The other thing is putting more than one Scottish surname in the central cast, because that's not only overdoing a stereotype, it's overdoing a Star Trek stereotype. Intramural racism? Of course, retaining McKay's role was a last minute thing, so maybe they didn't anticipate overlap.

Culturally: Geez, people, it's a North American show. Sheppard is depressingly apple pie. He's *written* that way. And I think it's really the writing more than the casting that's telling. Stargate, and *particularly* Atlantis, is about applying American doctrines to *other galaxies*. If it seems racist/condescending/practical, then one might want to look at the last 125 years of American foreign policy. The writers are only reflecting the attitudes; they're schooled in Roddenberry's vision but they are most definitely not creating a paradigm of parables. They're setting an SF show in the present, which means more X-Files rules than Star Trek.

That said. I really, really think Stargate: Atlantis is subversive in exactly the right way. I laugh, I really do, when I read people's rants about how stupid they are about common-sense policy towards securing the city and dealing with other cultures because real life policy is so much more screwed up than that. It makes people uncomfortable to watch things like "Michael" when hi, Tuskegee Airmen experiments. Or trading arms for resources, when hi, every single proxy war in the Cold War era. Or the four-man teams traipsing in on their high horses, armed to the teeth, when hi, American imperialism in Korea, Japan, the Philippines, and shall I keep going across the Pacific rim?

People -should- be uncomfortable.

It is desperately important to put that out there -- to put real consequences in front of art-imitating-life policy -- because Americans as a whole just don't get what their effect on the world is. They are never -there- for first contact. For a vast segment of the population, leaving their home state might as well be stepping through a Stargate.

[lemonbella.livejournal.com]

I really, really think Stargate: Atlantis is subversive in exactly the right way. I laugh, I really do, when I read people's rants about how stupid they are about common-sense policy towards securing the city and dealing with other cultures because real life policy is so much more screwed up than that. It makes people uncomfortable to watch things like "Michael" when hi, Tuskegee Airmen experiments.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about that. (I'm exhausted debating the other points! - see above)It's one of the things I love about Atlantis. It's actually far more real life than we've seen in SG1. It uses a sci fi scenario to highlight something that exists in RL, but a lot of people would rather deny. The scene in "seige" when Sheppard shot the Wraith with Ford and teyla not knowing whetehr to stop him or not? can anyone say Abu Grahib?

[wychwood]

Not to get into your main argument (though I agree that the treatment of race and, indeed any kind of non-white-male "Other" is basically underwhelming)...

Finally, I'm curious about the fact that the 'jumper driver seat is on the left. Not all civilisations drive on the right-hand side of the road.

I'm not at all sure about this, but I'd basically assumed that the two front seats were interchangeable; the Lanteans "drive" on the left because that's what they expect, but the 'jumpers aren't necessarily left-hand-drive only. I could be totally wrong, though!

PS While I take your point about the "primitive" leaders being non-white, I'd argue that that might still be a step up from all leaders ever, anywhere being white. Also, the Hoffan people from "Poisoning the Well" were reasonable tech and not bad-evil, although they didn't exactly get on with the Lanteans. The people from "Inferno", too, had a tech level going on there.

bias in SGA? Inevitable, its a scifi programme

[yinkawills.livejournal.com]

Interesting discussion.

Actually, Ive been pleasantly surprised at the number of people of colour and black people in Atlantis with signifigant speaking parts. One of the things that used to make me feel sorry for Chris Judge in SG1 was how little dialogue he had, and indeed how little camera time and the way it would cut away from him...I think over the years he has stuck in there and forced them to gradually enlarge his role so that by season 9 he gets all that great Jaffa-politics storyline. His being, um sidelined was even satirised in 'Wormhole Extreme'- the Teal'c like character got interrupted every time he tried to say anything!
Teyla, Ford, had much more substantial roles from early on in SGA. Its encouraging. Though Luttrell could have played Dr Weir. The suggestion that her presence/dancer training (or for that matter Judge's 'presence') is what makes her best for the warrior role, well...its stereotyping. I saw her in Charmed and she was as wimpy as anything. When actors get physical roles, they go into training, and if necessary, bulk up. Its not automatic that a black actor/actress will be more physically imposing! As for fighting and butt-kicking, the best women I've seen on tv doing that were Lucy Lawless (Xena) and Sarah Michelle Gellar (Buffy) both white, and one absolutely tiny.

As for the arguement about a limited pool to draw on etc...really? They got the actor who played Grodin, a south Asian actor, from Britain by his accent.A production like that doesn't just cast from whoever happens to be in Vancouver.
Even if they did, there's quite a pool in the US and Canada of actors from the various non-white communities with substantial stage and tv experience.

That 'its not race....its down to experience etc' arguement is popular where I come from-Britain- when it comes to black actors and film. (Not stage,funnily enough). Luckily, lots of black Brits are getting around it by jetting off and appearing in US film + tv. Oz, The Wire, Lost,are just a few that immediately spring to mind. Agents will send clients to other countries for the right tv or film part :)

q>Is it that hard to believe that there are people in this day and age can make decisions which aren't racially motivated? Because that's a very sad belief to have to live with.

Hmm. Unfortuately, we black people living in the West, dont have the luxury of assuming decisions such as the casting of a major television series which is likely to be syndicated, will not involve considerations of race. Its not hypersensitivity. Its how it is. (I periodically write about film and tv for magazines- have done for 8 years) Not only are there considerations of race, but the shade (colouring)/features of the actors of African ancestry cast (particularly women) can unfortunately be a factor. Its doesn't mean that there arent some enlightened tvPTB, or that black actors/actresses cant rise above it. But it is an extra obstacle to get over, in a profession that has a high unemployment rate anyway.

As for the 'whiteness' of the Pegasus galaxy-lets see how imaginative TPTB are in season 3. I think they are way more progressive than most in the scifi arena. Black character doesnt automatically mean 'that guy'll be dead by the end of the episode'. And btw,the Jaffa are not primitive, they had space ships and weapons way more advanced than Earth for much of the SG1 story arc.

Re: bias in SGA? Inevitable, its a scifi programme

[ken-more.livejournal.com]

They got the actor who played Grodin, a south Asian actor, from Britain by his accent.A production like that doesn't just cast from whoever happens to be in Vancouver.

Actually, Craig Veroni is from Vancouver (his IMDB profile is here (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0998268/)). It's incredibly rare for a Vancouver-based production to have non-locals in supporting/extra roles.

[doxymom.livejournal.com]

Shoot, I'd be happy if they showed aliens who looked alien and not human. Or even mentioned animals that aren't from Earth. I think they did in SG1, a little. But you'd think with an entirely new galaxy there'd be "alien" life everywhere. Sure, the Wraith don't look completely human, but since they're half human, I wasn't really counting them as alien, just mutations.

Guess that's what fanfic is for too.

[darkhavens.livejournal.com]

In Rising, there's a huge animal head visible on the 'dining table' on the Wraith ship, presumably there as part of the meal the Wraith were offering selected captives. It made me hope that we were going to see more strange beasties (like the huge domesticated cow thingie in the original Stargate movie), but no such luck.

howdy.

[ayodele.livejournal.com]

ooh. you know there is so much about stargate atlantis that just works my nerves, but its so much better than sg1 was in so many ways. which is scary.

You know, I'm waiting for the episode where they come across an Asiatic civilisation that's either run like the Japanese samurai or full of Asian crime gangs.

i vote for crime gangs. oh, and lots of stir fry, too. :-)

Hmmmm...

[vaberella.livejournal.com]

I will first touch lightly on the race issue and the labeling. I was born in Haiti, raised in America and lived 4 years of my life in London. I am a descedent of many cultures and ethnicities. By American racist mentality I am labeled as either 'black', 'woman of color', or 'person of color' and by others 'colored' point blank.

I consider myself none of the above. I do on other hand consider myself of 'mixed carribean descent'. To shorten, I usually say I'm either of 'african descent' since I am beyond proud of my african slave lineage, or 'carribean descent'....they are my people and we have survived all persecution to still be a prevalent ethnicity today. The word color annoys me to no end...and the word black is nothing but a damn color..and I'm far more than a color!

As for the issue of ethnicity on SGA as I can't comment on SG1, it has annoyed me. I mean I have to say based on many other shows, I do see Teyla and Ronon as more than just 'token' their prevasive figures in the show. Not as in your face as Rodney and John, but very important. And I' thankful for that. For too damn long I've had to deal with poor representation of my people or the damn 'bo jangles' syndrome. Not only that I've had to also deal with the alienation of people like me from key important shows. We have FRIENDS---to me the most racist show in damn near existence. It was so blatantly racist I was appalled, and what's funny is that they had the Jewish guy date the East Asian girl and the girl of African descent. What the hell is that keeping in mind that they live in New York CITY---not the state....the city, and yet, there was no people of African descent as a roomy..what the hell is that? Not even those who consider themselves 'Hispanic' it's offensive. For that reason I liked SGA that there were no tokens...and they weren't used for filler.

But as for their representation on the show as a species..yeah I got a problem. I did notice that the Genii are far more advanced and most of the othe predominantly anglo tribes were....excluding the one in Inferno they had multitude of cultures and ethnicity, and very advanced for their kind. I also felt in season 1 they had definitely a far more open mind to those people of african descent, but I put that down because the show was filmed in Canada.....I always feel that Canada tries real hard to be very PC, all the tv shows like Degrassi, even Instant Star, and a variety of children shows seem very pro ethnic mixing...which was interesting to me. You definitely don't get that in America...and several movies have even brought that to the forefront.

Still, I find it disturbing that the nominated 'leaders' of the primitive peoples - and therefore their representatives - are almost always non-white. (Plus, the leaders of the 'white people with civilisation' are evil if their cultures aren't.)Still, I find it disturbing that the nominated 'leaders' of the primitive peoples - and therefore their representatives - are almost always non-white. (Plus, the leaders of the 'white people with civilisation' are evil if their cultures aren't.)

I will first touch lightly on the race issue and the labeling. I was born in Haiti, raised in America and lived 4 years of my life in London. I though am a descedent of many cultures. By American racist mentality I am labeled as either 'black', 'woman of color', or 'person of color'. I consider myself none of the above. I do on other hand consider myself of 'mixed carribean descent'. Which I am...I had an anglo granddad with native haitian blood(before slaves were brought in) and my grandmaman on both ends were mixed. To shorten, I usually say I'm either of 'african descent' since I am beyond proud of my african slave lineage, or 'carribean descent'....they are my people and we have survived all persecution to still be a prevalent ethnicity today. The word color annoys me to no end...and the word black is nothing but a damn color..and I'm far more than a color!

Re: Hmmmm...pt.2

[vaberella.livejournal.com]

As for the issue of ethnicity on SGA as I can't comment on SG1, it has annoyed me. I mean I have to say based on many other shows, I do see Teyla and Ronon as more than just 'token' their prevasive figures in the show. Not as in your face as Rodney and John, but very important. And I' thankful for that. For too damn long I've had to deal with poor representation of my people or the damn 'bo jangles' syndrome. Not only that I've had to also deal with the alienation of people like me from key important shows. We have FRIENDS---to me the most racist show in damn near existence. It was so blatantly racist I was appalled, and what's funny is that they had the Jewish guy date the East Asian girl and the girl of African descent. What the hell is that keeping in mind that they live in New York CITY---not the state....the city, and yet, there was no people of African descent as a roomy..what the hell is that? Not even those who consider themselves 'Hispanic' it's offensive. For that reason I liked SGA that there were no tokens...and they weren't used for filler.

But as for their representation on the show as a species..yeah I got a problem. I did notice that the Genii are far more advanced and most of the othe predominantly anglo tribes were....excluding the one in Inferno they had multitude of cultures and ethnicity, and very advanced for their kind. I also felt in season 1 they had definitely a far more open mind to those people of african descent, but I put that down because the show was filmed in Canada.....I always feel that Canada tries real hard to be very PC, all the tv shows like Degrassi, even Instant Star, and a variety of children shows seem very pro ethnic mixing...which was interesting to me. You definitely don't get that in America...and several movies have even brought that to the forefront.

Still, I find it disturbing that the nominated 'leaders' of the primitive peoples - and therefore their representatives - are almost always non-white. (Plus, the leaders of the 'white people with civilisation' are evil if their cultures aren't.)Still, I find it disturbing that the nominated 'leaders' of the primitive peoples - and therefore their representatives - are almost always non-white. (Plus, the leaders of the 'white people with civilisation' are evil if their cultures aren't.)

Well remember even in America to this day those of african descent are second class citizens for all intents and services. I need to prepare myself with a deep breath because I'm bound to hear something stupid, and have to deal with that. I have come to see that we will always be seen as primitive....if your not anglo or pretty much fitting in the WASP mold you are foreign and primitive and our portrayal tends to be like that...or we're damn aggressive and good fighters. There's never really a dynamic portrayal of us. And I find that the characers on SGA especially Ronon and Teyla are looked upon as primitive especially and specifically by those in charge. When in fact they should be seen as Royalty really....since the SGA crew is really the foreign aliens....and are far out of their league.

All in all I like ethinic portrayals or specie protrayals on this show than most other's I've seen.

VB

[mimesere.livejournal.com]

One of the things that no one has brought up which does, I think, impact casting a lot, is the traditional Hollywood hierarchy of audience/demographics which went/still goes along the lines of gender but which I think also applies to race.

Younger people (adolescent) will see what older people see (20-30s) but not (voluntarily) the reverse. Girls will see what boys will see but not the reverse. So that skews the demographic toward young adult males.

But okay, so people of color (also my preferred term since I do think it's inclusive) will go see the movies/consume the media that white people will see but not necessarily or voluntarily the reverse.

If you make, as for example, Sheppard black, you're *automatically* going to have less of a willing audience because the white fans (who aren't watching *anyway*) aren't going to accept a black man as their hero (for whatever reason, discomfort being the one I think most likely) whereas fans of color are more likely to accept a white hero because there isn't any other option.

And it is a question of audience for me as much as anything else, because lord knows I want more a) media and b) fic featuring characters of color, but there doesn't seem to be as big an audience for it. Which doesn't stop me (or anyone else) from writing their preferred characters but which makes it less likely to be noticed, feedbacked, commented on, or whatever.

[jessikast]

After much gushing, I finally got my girlfriend to watch SGA with me - we're currently about five or six eps into season 1.

Even with having seen so little, she's already pointed out the way that all the 'primative' races are portrayed as Noble Savages - their speech patterns are all unnatural, with highly formal speech (even between two NS characters, not in hearing of the Atalanteans, with whom they might be formal), lack of contractions etc.

She also got very riled up about "Poisioning the Well" - and although she's a socialist who's anti-imperialistic-american-view-being-imposed-on-everying, I totally saw her point in that episode. I still can't figure out why - or by what right - John got so pissed off....and pissy. Carson, I could understand. The other Atlanteans, not so much.

[violetvision78.livejournal.com]

I think they have the main characters being white because around 70% (according to the Census) of Americans are white and make up more of the viewing audiance. The people they come across in the other galaxy are in a Neolithic type period of living or a little later or earlier because the Wraith keep killing them off, so they are not able to establish themselves.

[bell]

I've recently started to watch SGA, and I've got to tell you, the race/culture issues you raised in this post? Would have made me stop watching the show altogether; they only reason I'm sticking through with it is because I promised a friend I'd wach it.

Thank you for putting into words some of the problems that were bothering me. It frustrates me because while I do love the SGA fandom (so creative! so talented! so crazy!), I've noticed that a lot of people are either blind to the offensive elements or refuse to acknowledge them.

[bell]

I've recently started to watch SGA, and I've got to tell you, the race/culture issues you raised in this post? Would have made me stop watching the show altogether; they only reason I'm sticking through with it is because I promised a friend I'd wach it.

Thank you for putting into words some of the problems that were bothering me. It frustrates me because while I do love the SGA fandom (so creative! so talented! so crazy!), I've noticed that a lot of people are either blind to the offensive elements or refuse to acknowledge them.