ponderings on friends and friending memes

[tielan]

I put my name down on the SG1/SGA friending meme.

However, since my favourite SGA character is Teyla and my favourite SGA pairing is John/Teyla, I doubt I'm going to get any new friends out of it. The most-disliked character (or least-liked, anyway) and most-disliked pairing on SGA? Never let it be said that I in any way, shape, or form, run with the crowd! At any rate, I daresay that the other friending meme is going to be a bust for people like myself, who aren't McShep, Shweir, or Teynon (or whatever they're calling it).

I thought about running a friending meme for fans of Teyla: just for fans of Teyla. But I seem to be a bit of a black sheep in fandom these days. Hold the 'wrong' opinions. Say the 'wrong' things. Don't support the 'right' characters or the 'right' pairings in the 'right' ways. Hell, half my f-list avoids this LJ for one reason or another! Do I have any hope of getting total strangers involved in such an undertaking?

And even friends-of-friends would probably be a bust: the people I could count on to propagate this meme don't have large f-lists and aren't heavily involved in fandom. They might not even want to expand their f-lists.

Am I arguing myself out of doing this? Possibly. In fact, quite probably. But the fact is, a lot of Teyla's fans seem to have gone underground - and we who remain aren't exactly the cool kids. Now are we the uncool kids because we like Teyla, or is Teyla just liked by the uncool kids?

(No offence intended to any of my f-list reading this who are Teyla-fans. But you have to admit, we're not exactly a chatty, involved, super-popular bunch. Well, maybe you are! But I'm not.)

So what I'm basically asking is whether there's anyone reading this who'd pimp a Teyla-oriented friending meme, or knows of people who'd answer a Teyla-oriented friending meme run by me. (I think it's a valid question: there are at least three people I know of who are fans of Teyla but would rather slit their firstborn's throat than touch anything I'm involved in.)

It would be nice to expand the f-list with Teyla-fans (preferably productive ones) before the S4 spoilers start seeping out.

---

I was going to watch Heroes: Hiro tonight. But all I wanna do is sleep.

Comments

[tielan]

even if one is ready to bring that effort and then you can't find a partner in crime who is willing to do the same.

Yep, that's pretty much my problem. That, and my perception that the people who are enthusiastic aren't as good as I'd like, and the people who are good have their own cliques and don't really want another hanger-on.

As well as the fact that my perspective on the show and the characters isn't the standard "Soul Mates 4EVAH" attitude of shippers.

"They were born for each other, destined to be together, across a million miles and a thousand trials and tribulations..."

...doesn't tend to work for me. But it's the prevailing attitude among most shippers. "X and Y should be together! They're soul mates! It's true love! Nothing can diviiiiiiide them!"

[thelana.livejournal.com]

*snicker*

Word about the soulmate thing.

That, and my perception that the people who are enthusiastic aren't as good as I'd like, and the people who are good have their own cliques and don't really want another hanger-on.

As horrible as it sounds, my first thought was, why not try to make them better then? Talk to them, beta them, have characterisation discussions, cheer them on whenever it looks like they might make a move towards what you prefer.

I have to admit, I'm a big believer in fandom karma. I realize it *doesn't* always work, but yeah, I guess it's my illusion. So, friend if you want to be friended. Leave enthusiastic feedback if you want to receive enthusiastic feedback. Rec if you want to be recced. Get interested in other people's meta if you want people to get interested in your meta. Be openminded if you want people to be openminded to you, search for things you might have in common.

My theory (so far unproven) is that a good way is to (1) at least create the illusion of actuality (2) give people easy chances to interact with the fandom. You know, polls are nice. Even people who aren't willing t do a lot in a fandom that would require work are usually willing to vote in a poll (favorite picture of character X out of these, favorite hairstyle of character X, favorite episode out of these, favorite quote out of these...). The next step are memes (top three reasons you love character X, top three moments, top 3 quotes, top 3 favorite fics, top 3 most influential fics, top 3 fics that changed your opinion or gave you a new perspective, how do you think character X will interact when meeting character Y, who do you think does character X consider their best friend, who do you think has the most in common with character Y...). Or a frequent favorite scene picture spam. Of course... that is often a chore to keep up over a longer period of time, especially when these kind of things go through fluctuations of popularity.

Another thing that I think helps is making lists, disussing, giving reasons for why you love something and why something is great. I think people like to be reminded every once in a while about why they love the things they love. Or at least *I* like reading that. Heck, sometimes I even like reading it on fandoms I'm not even in (hey, that's why I subscribe to ship_manifesto). [btw, did you know that they currently have a free month? Where you can post all kinds of things to show your love for your pairing? Irregular essays, picturespams, top 10 moments list or whatever comes up. *attemptingly pokes you into their direction*]

[tielan]

why not try to make them better then? Talk to them, beta them, have characterisation discussions, cheer them on whenever it looks like they might make a move towards what you prefer.

Truly told, I've attempted this a couple of times. It depends on how open the person is to a) a beta, and b) once you're beta'ing for them, your ideas.

I'm presently beta'ing for someone who has promise and who I'm hoping will fledge out into some really awesome writing. So, I'm trying to do my bit.

Also, sometimes it feels like my attempts to draw people in just...flop. There's nothing worse than someone trying to start a discussion that doesn't go anywhere and sits with a whole two comments and no conversations.

Thanks for the note on ship_manifesto, I'll give it a whirl. :)

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know from experience, you win some, you lose some. Some people just end up having very divergent interests, others just have no interest in improving, but sometimes you can still find that person that you completely gel with or that among tons of other things produces that one fic that really works for you. It's not even just an issue of betaing. Sometimes some simple encouragement can go a long way. From "I really like your meta, have you ever given fanfic a try?" to just being *there* when somebody mentions that they would love to write a certain bunny to maybe courting somebody who normally doesn't write a certain character or pairing simply through showing interest to cheering somebody on with detailed feedback when they post a fic you like or asking for a sequel.

Again, it's always a question how much time you are willing to invest (and usually you have to draw the line somewhere about how much you are willing to invest). For example, I really think that if you are willing to put in the time, you really can steer the discussion, for example in a message board thread. You know, looking where people are showing signs of having and interest in something you agree with, picking it out, quoting it, initiating dialog and discussion. Just posting certain ideas and being there to discuss back and answer when people reply.

If you want more livejournal presence, maybe more advertising might be the way to go. You know, make a poll and link it in the message board thread, inviting people to come. Write a fic and post a note along the lines of "hey, I wrote this fic, I'd be really curious to get your opinions". I know so many people who have gotten a livejournal account just so they could comment on fic. Of make a ficathon and directly contact the people on the message boards who are writers and ask them whether they would be interested. I've frequently been amazed at how great people react to being asked personally about things. Yes, you usually will be turned down by some (lack of interest, lack of time) but if you ask enough people you usually get at least some to join. Or maybe they will join the next time around. Sometimes it can also be a question of publicity, of other people seeing the invitation and getting curious.

If there are Teylafans and J/T fans, but they are just disconnected or isolated, then the big problem is connecting them. For example, I'm not deep in the fandom. I read your journal because I really like Teyla and I love how *you* love Teyla and how your talk and write about her. But just from your journal I get very little sense of what else is out there. I don't know whether you read any Teylafic by other people (or if there's even any posted) because you never talk about it ("[link] by [x]: interesting fic, but maybe not really my thing. I wish there had been more focus on [aspect y]. [link] by v: Cute little piece. Adorable! Hope the author writes more!"). I don't know if you ever are involved in any interesting discussions about here, because if you are, you don't link it in your journal ("Hmmm, there was this really interesting discussion on Gateworld today [link]. I really like the point that was brought up regarding [x], but personally, I think I'm leaning more towards [y] because [explanation]".).

Sometimes just talking about what there is and about what you like can be interesting and powerful. Because it makes people think about what their own opinion on the subject is and whether or not they agree. And again, it creates a sense of a community, or connecting different strands of the fandom.

Dammit, maybe I just need a "short guide to the Teyla fandom" with them most important hotspots (like the threads, communities or the yahoo groups), the most important authors, meta givers, icon makers, the most influential fics, the most popular working opinions. Yes, I realize that there is the John/Teyla manifesto. Maybe you could write an update to it. Or maybe it least post a tiny picture spam of the "headtouch" goodbye :D

[tielan]

One of the problems with my 'advertising' Teyla stuff is that there's not much out there to begin with and I'm not a big reader. If I find something I like, I rec it - but I'm not well-read in the fandom.

I have considered making a 'Fandom's Best Of Teyla' post - for everything from fics to icons to meta to...whatever. But then, there's always the fear that people won't play - particularly people from outside my LJ-space.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I have considered making a 'Fandom's Best Of Teyla' post - for everything from fics to icons to meta to...whatever.

I think that would be very cool. And of course (at least to me) the best case scenario would be people chiming in and giving their own ideas about which fics they would suggest that you might have overlooked. Personally, I always find it intensely interesting when people explain *why* they like a certain fic. I for one find that always very interesting to read about. Then again, *I* think that people like reading about love and about people saying why they love something. It's just nice to read and warm and fuzzy feeling inducing.

You could make your guide and add an "open call" at the end if people have their own recommendations to list them in the replies.

If I find something I like, I rec it - but I'm not well-read in the fandom.

*nods*

I know the situation. I have theoretized on it before. If people mostly look for fic in the beginning as they are still getting to know the fandom or as you define yourself and then interests peters out. I also have often wondered if people stop reading as much as they write more. I still think that fanfiction feedback can be a powerful tool. Not just as motivating the author, but as in creating discussion (for example when canon is rare). If you sit down and *define* what you like about certain Teylafic and also what tendencies you maybe don't like, maybe people will read that, agree, disagree (creates discussion) or maybe feel tempted to write fic that addresses those kind of points.

If you read a fic and post "It was nice, but I thought it was strange that Teyla reacted in this particular way. I think she would be more likely to react that way" maybe you can invite discussion where people give their arguments of why they thought the reaction made sense (of course those kind of discussions have to be done with the utmost care; since people can be sensitive about their fic; but when they work I think they can be intensely interesting and even be considered a big case of flattery by the author). Fic is actually a good place to start discussions with somebody. People write fic because they care. They usually love their fic and like talking about it. So if you ask them characterization related question, it's been my experience that people usually love answering your questions about it.

And if you have already had an interesting discussion with somebody, that means that they might feel like they know you better, might be more ready to stop by your journal and join into a discussion you start.

Again, there is this idea of fandom karma again. There has actually been a lot of meta of why it doesn't work and why it shouldn't be a law (if you comment on somebody's fic that doesn't mean that they are suddenly required to read your fic too), but I think it still works to some extent in the "getting to know you" way. You talk to somebody, you discuss in the comments, you realize that you have many similar ideas about characters and you get more curious about them as a person and as a fic writer. But yeah, if you don't feel very tempted to read Teyla fic out there, how should I, an even more casual fan, be tempted? It's all about making the prospect sound appealing.

[speaking of talking... any chance you might consider posting a simple "Thank You" to marag and ubi_girl (neither of whom I know) for showing interest in your meme? I noticed that you posted in depth replies to most other comments, but didn't react to theirs. I'm just mentioning because I know it can sometimes be odd to see that everybody gets a reply and only you don't. Or posting in somebody's journal and never getting a reply. Sometimes it makes one feel unsure if the person in question even saw it.]

[tielan]

One of the things that's been instilled in me is the idea that "one does not criticise or con-crit in feedback". So if there's nothing good to say about the story, then nothing is said. But you're right - for someone who really does love a character, people bringing out aspects of fic is a great opportunity for conversation.

However, as previously stated, I don't read much (and yes, it has to do with doing a lot of writing - if I get too many things confused in my head, no writing gets done), so I tend to leave relatively short comments on fic.

I do love it when people respond to my fic with meta/crit, though - and I usually respond with meta/crit. Unfortunately, in 99% of situations, that's as far as it goes. But I do love discussions...it's just that it feels awfully like when I engage, other people back off.

Which sounds like it's emo-whining on my part, I know. But it happens often enough that I begin to wonder if I give off the wrong vibe when laying out my thoughts.

Thanks for reminding me - I'm threading via Gmail, so their responses got lost.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

One of the things that's been instilled in me is the idea that "one does not criticise or con-crit in feedback". So if there's nothing good to say about the story, then nothing is said.

*shakes fist*

I know! Most people have that attitude. I'm actually totally against it. I think friendly concrit or at least *polite asking* should be totally appropriate. If I had issues with a fic, I strongly believe in posting a mixed response. Like first praise the things I did like and then tactfully try to ask about some things I wasn't sure on. Try to find a balance of the nice and maybe slightly unpleasant things I'm saying. And again, I think in the best cases it can lead to the best discussions. I think most people just think a lot about the characters they are writing and only a fraction of what they have laid down in their mind ends up in the story itself. And most love nothing more than to be asked for more details.

I personally love reading other people's characterization discussion. I wish there was a way to engage people to talk about what their take on different characters are and why and in what ways maybe some authors differ. It really is unfortunate that this kind of discussion can be quite tough at times and it's hard to find the balance, to make sure no author gets offended (I understand that that was sometimes a problem on the infamous cutting board thingie). In theory, if it works or worked, I think it could lead to some great stuff.

But it happens often enough that I begin to wonder if I give off the wrong vibe when laying out my thoughts.

:( I wonder about that all the time. For example, I have a tendency to try to phrase everything I say as broadly as possible (because I really think that a lot of ideas or rules can for example be applied to both slash and het, to a variety of pairings or a variety of fandoms). I also try to be really anal about always saying things like "I think", or "maybe" to show that I'm not trying to act like I'm some sort of perfect authority. But at the same time I often fear if that doesn't make me sound very annoying or whether that doesn't actually make my ramblings even harder to read because I'm always trying my best to talk about all potential angles and consider all exceptions and all sides rather than just posting some sort of snappy opiniated piece. But in the end I can only write in a way that is comfortable to me. And in the end, I just wouldn't feel uncomfortable stating my opinions like they are the end of it all and like somebody's opposing opinion can't be valid too.

Sigh. Babysteps.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Sheesh, I clearly haven't slept enough.

For example that in the end was of course supposed to mean either I wouldn't feel comfortable or I would feel uncomfortable and rather than "I wouldn''t feel uncomfortable".

*bangs head against desk*

Did I mention I really hate that you can't edit your comments in livejournal? Because I always make tons of mistakes like that that I notice right after I have hit "post".

[tielan]

I think it's a good thing for some of the comms out there - that if people switcheroo their minds, they have to stand by what they said earlier.

But, yes, when you've made a mistake, or accidentally pressed 'post' or haven't phrased things right, it can be really frustrating.

[tielan]

Heh. When I try 'gently directing notice to areas that might be improved', I get *stony silence*. Maybe it's the way I say it - I do try to be polite. I just don't seem to manage it.

And I surely don't have the time to discuss characterisation, but I do it anyway. I love getting involved in discussions of this kind. Preferably where people don't take immediate offence the moment you suggest that their depiction may not be 100% accurate from someone else's perspective.

*sigh*

Worst reaction I ever saw was a "Lizzie" fan (rabid fan of Elizabeth) who took offence to my observation that the blurbs on Elizabeth for every SGA AU community on LiveJournal were very Mary Sue-like. She got all huffy and unfriended and banninated me forthwith.

Incidentally, you wouldn't happen to be a Bats/Wondy shipper, would you? :)

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I'm actually pretty freeflowing as far as comic couples are concerned (in fact that only one I actually dislike I Superman/Wonderwoman, though I do like them as friends). But, yeah, I rather like Bats/Wondy. I was rather disappointed that they didn't do more stuff with them in the comics. I think some pretty interesting storylines could have come out of it. It would have been interesting to see her fit in with the Batfamily or to see Bat take on some of the mythological foes Diana has. :(

I don't really have good advice on how to properly interact with people. I guess I have had my share of run ins. I do believe in again, saying something nice first, so establish a certain "we *are* on the same side at least in some areas" basis. And I believe in trying to state general things. Like "I do like AUs, but I want the characters to still be recognizable. I prefer AUs that just change a minor thing" or "Sounds nice, but I generally don't like AUs too much" or "I'm in Atlantis for the SciFi, real world AUs or Fantasy AUs aren't really as interesting to me; it's too far removed from the world as we are seeing". I don't really believe on commenting on stuff that it totally opposite of my taste. For one, I most likely won't have read it and I don't feel comfortable commenting on stuff I haven't read. And I believe that generally, there's this whole idea of shipper bias that I think exists for every ship. There are just certain things that will only make sense or only be interesting if you are already a shipper of that ship. A lot of ships develop their own fanon so to speak and can occasionally be rather unreadable to fans who aren't buying into that fanon or aren't aware of it.

I guess I generally feel more comfortable on criticizing things that I think I have some knowledge/authority on. As a Teylafan it would bug me if somebody wrote her as a MarySue and I'd be able to talk to a fellow Teylafan about it. And if there is weak Weir characterization, then I think it's up to the fans of Weir to "clean that up".

I do think that discussion between different ships can potentially be interesting and could lead to some interesting character discussions and insights. But just like with the fic discussion it can be a very, very, very tricky thing to do and it is certainly easier if one already has a friendship or some other sort of common base with the other poster.

I think it's often that somebody else's take on a ship or character is *wrong* but rather that each character has a variety of characteristics and each shipper fraction focuses on different aspects and weighs them differently. The character aspect that a Shweir fan might consider completely essential might be something that a Jayla fan considers totally unimportant and vice versa. And that can sometimes make discussion rather complicated.

One thing that I always do wonder about (but I don't know whether it would work) would be if somebody could stand up and say directly:

- Okay, I know I have prejudices and insufficient data. These are the prejudices I have about this particular other couple: Proove me wrong.

Like:

() There are no Ronon/Teyla fans. All R/T fans either are Ronon fans or are really Shweir fans or McShep fans who are just pretending to be R/T fans or just shipping them as an unimportant side couple. [intention: Please, please, please proove me wrong, because I want to converse with a fan from a different opinion who is actually interested or serious about it]

() Most Shweir fic villainizes or "parks" Teyla. Most Shweir fic makes Weir silly and whiny. There is no good Shweir fic with a strong, yet flawed Weir that realistically addresses the power issues. [intention: Rec me a fic that proves me wrong. Of course if you call something like that out then you have to be ready to actually read the recs you are handed]

Or heck just a "I'm potentially interested in [this couple]. But I have the following issues A, B, C. I'm worried that the shippers of [this couple] don't address these issues. So, shippers of [this couple], why do you like them and what are your thoughts on A, B, C".

Of course the downside of this is that many people don't like being called out like that. And of course you must actually *want* to know what the other side thinks.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I guess to me any discussion is about trying to find that overlap. And intellectually there should be an overlap. Like, shouldn't both R/T and J/T fans agree about loving Teyla? If the R/T fans really loved Teyla, shouldn't there be parts that would also be interesting to a general Teylafan? Like I can see how maybe a smutty R/T wouldn't be interesting to you, if you are searching for something that has some sort of deeper characterization for Teyla. Or how a "sparring leads to R/T sexing" might not be satisfying to you because even if the story was good, your heart would still want it to be J/T instead. Or how a dark sexy Ronon might not work for you, because to you the playful Ronon is more essential than the hunkish Ronon. But still, I'm sure there could be angles to R/T that could be interesting. How about them as friends, as warriors, as people from an to us alien culture, as people who have lived with the Wraith all their lives, a fic that focused on that aspects might be intellectually interesting as far as characterization goes even to a general Teyla fan.

Or Teylafans and Weirfans, shouldn't there be at least agreement and common ground that both sides want more strong characterization for females? Or more focus on them rather than on McShep? Or both want more fic where the women are written as strong and capable?

Yet sadly even when there *should* be common ground it often doesn't work that way. Because often it seems issues spring up that divide people more and the things that should unite them don't click in because people are too busy disliking each other over the other things.

[tielan]

I think it's also a perception of 'limited resources'. If people are busy concentrating on Teyla, they can't concentrate on Weir. Particularly in the Stargates, "women" have a very limited allotted screentime. So if one is getting 'more attention' then it must be being drawn 'from attention that should rightfully be the other's'. Possibly this is also a function of "There Are No Strong Women Characters In Stargate So I'll Just Focus On The Men" syndrome. laceylaces mentioned it below (or in the previous post): the women on Stargate always face much more demanding scrutiny from fans (mostly female) than their male counterparts.

How about them as friends, as warriors, as people from an to us alien culture, as people who have lived with the Wraith all their lives, a fic that focused on that aspects might be intellectually interesting as far as characterization goes even to a general Teyla fan.

Believe me, this is something I want to write and haven't yet seen. (Possibly because I'm not looking for it.) Teyla and Ronon as 'just friends', working together and having to get out of a situation (or having to get others out of a situation) without the Earthers.

Too many stories to write! Not enough time to focus on them! ARGH!

[thelana.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that whole "women get more scrutiny" thing is kind of universal. You can see traces of it on a lot of shows (Buffy, Veronica Mars, CSI...). I don't really blame people who are more into the male characters. I can see how having a sexual attraction to a male character can be a powerful motivator. But there's a difference between just being less interested in the female characters and being actually mean to them.

Then again, the fans or female characters are actually often more likely to be mean to each other and put the other female character down to pull the one they prefer up. It kinda goes back to every big soap opera pairing war.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

BTW, what I'm describing is a situation that is totally particular to me personally. Since I don't write or create fanart of produce in other ways, feedback is my main way of contributing to the fandom and therefore I probably put a lot of additional thought in it and can potentially spare the time for more in depth feedback and discussion.

[loveconquers14.livejournal.com]

Ah, very true. *sigh*

[missyvortexdv.livejournal.com]

*snorts at your description of the average shippers fair* So true. I'm not one to go for that either. I like it dark, complicated, twisted most of the time, though I can do fluffy on occasion. But yeah, I lose patience a bit with the overzealous one ship forever and ever mindset which is why I never got going with S/T even though I do like it. After my experiences on the GW thread I can't abide with a lot of the S/T people and simply avoid going near them, with you and a few others being exceptions. The sockpuppet thing over there made me wary, too.

Similarly, I didn't get into Ronon/Teyla, a ship I had a passing interest in that could have gone further, because most of the people are also squeeful OMG they're so doing S/Wers and I didn't see it likely I'd find enough people tolerant of the fact I don't do S/W - plus I can't get into R/T fic when 90% of the time S/W accompanies it.

Hence, I'm rather happy with how nice people are in M/W section of SGA fandom, and on the forums I run for M/W, because rarely is anyone much like that and it's really easy going shipping with variety/multishipping, that's nice to experience and feels sort of rare to me.

[tielan]

I'm afraid I haven't had much McKay/Weir in me in the last couple of years - I can't quite see Elizabeth really putting up with Rodney at all anymore - the same way I can't see her putting up with Sheppard (if Sheppard was even interested). Still, I can see McKay/Weir working better than I can Shep/Weir.

These days, I can see Rodney with Teyla, Ronon, or Carson. Elizabeth would take a lot of work, and Shep/McKay... *wince* I'm not sure if it's the fanon that's turned me off it, or the fact that I get the buddy-buddy vibe shoved in my face in canon all the time.

And, yeah, the Teyla/Ronon fandom angle annoyed me as well. It's like convenience 'shipping - get the whore other woman out of the way and our OTP can reign! (And since TPTB, Joe Flanigan, and Torri have nixed Shep/Weir repeatedly in interviews and comments, and the show isn't about 'shipping anyway, TH's recurring status is not "getting the other woman out of the way" - contrary to certain opinions.)

I like Teyla and Ronon as friends - I get a better friendship vibe from them.

[missyvortexdv.livejournal.com]

I must say I have had a hard time reconciling show events with M/W in S2 in particular, though S3 it's been better. Though somehow, whatever happens I know I'll alwayd have M/W plot bunnies in my head, I simly can't get them out - just how it is.

I can see Rodney with others but I rarely find a fic I enjoy for another McKay pairing. I'm not in any way against McShep for example but I'm so picky about what fic I read for it and sometimes get a more than a little put off by some slash fans being so adamant about it's existence in a "OMG how can you not see their snarky love!" way and practically discounting all het as inferior. Hence, I'd be more into the main slash but I can't find the true love for it that a lot of people in the fandom harbour.

So, yeah my my fandom love as of late has been for secondary pairings (Kav/Simpson get out of my brain XP) or Teyla ones of many kinds as I seem to multiship her far too much, plus increasingly wishing for good just character fic, which you know seems quite rare still sadly. Even just good friends fic is hard to find which dissapoints me.