musings on the finale

[tielan]

I haven't seen anything since Quarantine, due to bandwidth issues. I'm trying to avoid as much spoilerage as possible in the meantime, although a little is to be expected.

This is my musings on what little tidbits I've heard. Some spoilers, but not the major kind, a few reflections on S4 and hopes for S5. What can I say? I'm getting in ahead of tomorrow's crowd. *g*

Teyla

I don't expect Teyla will be in the finale at all. Although she hasn't ever been significant in any of the finales so that's nothing new.

It really grates that the one year when they decide they're going to do something with Teyla...Rachel gets pregnant. It's like the mother of all bad timing. And as far as Season Five goes, Joe Mallozzi hasn't answered any of my mails other than to say that Teyla is still part of the team. Which, you know, is no comfort, since she was "part of the team" all through Season Three and got jack shite by way of development, plot, or anything to do.

I know, there's a Teyla-oriented story in the works.

It could be said that the Teyla-fans "did well" this year: we had a Teyla-backstory episode in Missing, a Teyla-saves-the-day story in Spoils Of War (even through the Issues over motherhood, feminism, and patriarchy). We had Teyla as a major lynchpin in Tabula Rasa, and possibly in Kindred I. (The impression I've gathering from Kindred II is that she is once again in the "needs saving" group. Whether this is right or wrong, don't spoil me, hey?) And there've been emotionally significant scenes reiterating her importance to the team (and to John) all through the season.

So, yeah, better than Season Three. But still not approaching half what's possible. It's not approaching a quarter of what I want as a Teyla-fan, or one-tenth of what John or Rodney's had over the last four years.

Still, fate has a sadistic bastard's sense of humour. Now that Rachel's no longer pregnant, I'm hoping for more significant parts for her to play - preferably paired up working with John, with Rodney, with Zelenka, with Carson, with the new administrator of Atlantis, with Jennifer...basically with anyone except Ronon. Because, hello, "primitive-appearing aliens all stand to one side and let the good white folks who know best through" is colonialist in precisely the way Joe Mallozzi thinks it isn't!

We're Not Going There. (Really.)


Ronon/Jennifer vs. Rodney/Jennifer

The Jennifer/Rodney thing. On one hand, I'm torn between wanting it just to watch the rabid McSheps tear their hair out and scream. On the other hand, I know the "Jennifer Keller, man-stealing bitch" contingent isn't too far behind the wailing and flailing and gnashing of teeth.

And I rather liked Ronon/Jennifer myself. I mean, they were cute. And, yes, she reminds him of his ex-wife, but, hello, don't be telling me that you've never ever heard of people fixating on a type of person, or falling in love a second time with someone who resembles the first. And not just the neurotics, the psychotics, and the emotionally dependents, but the people who are perfectly happy in their second relationship in spite of the similarities with the first.

Because if you've never heard of that, then I have to introduce you to my mother, my father, and my stepdad. Trust me on this.

Anyway, back to Ronon/Jennifer...I had a whole conversation with carolyn_claire about this, too. She's on the Rodney/Jennifer bandwagon, I'm on the Ronon/Jennifer one. Either way, we decided that there should be a RONON NEEDS LOVE club. My caveat would be "not from Teyla" because "lots of screentime together" and "a common background" does not mean "love and kisses forevah" in any handbook of lurve I've ever seen. (And because, hey, Teyla's already got enough trouble with Kanaan being whacked out on one hand, and John pressuring her for an answer as to whether she's coming back to the team on the other. Let's be kind to the nice Athosian lady - she's had a lot happen to her in the last twelve months.)


The RantMobile is coming! And everybody's humming!

Let's hop on the rantmobile for a moment: the John/Teyla fans who are beating on Kanaan? Or beating on Teyla for loving/sleeping with Kanaan because of John? In fic or in words? Would you mind standing up against that sunny wall? Over there. Yes, right there. Have a cigarette? You don't take them? Fine. Oh, and put this blindfold on so you can better appreciate the sun on your skin. Stand to attention, now...

So Kanaan is the fly in your ointment of Twu Wuv between John and Teyla? Cry me a bloody river, folks. Let's just say that I am no more impressed by this behaviour than I am by the behaviour of the McSheps and Shweirs who regard Teyla as nothing more than an inconvenience in the path towards their John/ChosenOne 'Soul Mates Forevah And Evah'.

Sure, Teyla went for the safe option, but John wasn't exactly making his emotional position clear. And while people might like to think that John/Teyla is obvious as all hells, I would say that there was always the possibility of more, but they never codified it between themselves, and so it was at a standstill when Kanaan made his move. You gotta be in it to win it. Kanaan was in it. John never was.

And John and Teyla didn't codify anything. Because if they had, Teyla wouldn't have slept with Kanaan. Let's not play the "Evil Woman Who Used John's Feelings" card here, thank you. Anyone with half a brain cell and no axe to grind knows that Teyla plays down the line. She's not a cheater. If she and John had an explicit understanding, or even half of an explicit understanding, she would have made her position clear to Kanaan when he put the moves on her. (And, yes, it was Kanaan who put the moves on her. How do I know this? Go watch the opening conversation in Sunday.)

Kanaan moved and Teyla didn't rebuff. Ergo, she and John had no explicit understanding.

If there was an implicit one, then John might have thought they had something, but, again, Teyla wouldn't have gone into a relationship with Kanaan unless she believed she was a free agent. Basic character comprehension. Capische?

We're Not Going Into This, Either. (Really!)


So, I think I've gotten the most pressing of my Stargate Atlantis fandom issues out in there. There's a backlog of issue-ness, but it can wait. :)

Comments

[amathela.livejournal.com]

I would say that there was always the possibility of more, but they never codified it between themselves, and so it was at a standstill when Kanaan made his move.

That's exactly the way I see it. Depending on how you read the conversation in Sunday, Teyla may or may not have explicitly acknowledged feelings for John (though not to John himself); John, on the other hand, while he may have feelings for Teyla, certainly isn't acknowledging them to anyone else, and maybe not even to himself. And even if they're both aware of the other's feelings ... I can see John believing they have some sort of understanding, because he's all repression-don't-talk-about-it guy, but I can't see Teyla believing herself to be in a relationship (or pre-relationship, or having an "understanding") with someone unless they'd, y'know, actually talked about it. John never made his move, and even if she did have feelings for him and/or believed that he had feelings for her, I'm hardly going to fault a girl for not sitting around pining after someone emotionally unavailable instead of actually going out and trying to be happy.

[tielan]

BINGO!

I'm hardly going to fault a girl for not sitting around pining after someone emotionally unavailable instead of actually going out and trying to be happy.

And that's the big issue for a lot of people complaining about the Teyla/Kanaan thing: that she should have waited for John, however long it took him to pull his game up.

I encountered this in earlier seasons, too: "Teyla's just waiting for John to stop chasing those alien women and notice her!" It is, in my opinion, the worst kind of label to put on a woman - the faithful little woman just waiting for her beloved man to look her way and notice her!

UGH.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

we decided that there should be a RONON NEEDS LOVE club.

And Jason agrees! Or, that he needs to get some, anyway (Ronon, I mean. *g*) I just recently saw the interview (done early in the season) where he talks about how it's been more than long enough since the death of his woobie for Ronon to be seeing some action, but, sadly, he isn't. There you go! Bring it on! :)

I had forgotten the convo in Sunday, but it certainly does point to Kanaan being the man she meant. The other women says, well, you know him better than I do, and Teyla responds, I should think so! Sort of a "well, duh," on Teyla's part, which would certainly be apt if the man she meant were Athosian. And she also says that her people do things differently when it's suggested to her that she just approach the guy; if she had meant John, she wouldn't have been as invested in how her people conduct courtship, IMO. She wasn't saying "As a woman, I should not approach John because that is not what my people do," she was saying, "I should not approach Kanaan because that's not what he would expect me to do." Because Teyla, living apart from her people and immersed in the culture of the new Atlanteas, wouldn't worry about John following (or even being aware of) the precepts of her people in courtship, and wouldn't be so hidebound that she felt she had to follow them with this alien man, either. She's already demonstrated her adaptability, and, even though she does care about and follow many of her people's ways, she'd also be canny enough to realize that any woman who waits for John Sheppard to see it coming probably has a long wait ahead of her. *g* So, yes, I see that convo the same way--good catch.

Though, you know, anyone who wants to write yer-cheatin'-heart fic about Teyla/Kanaan/John can go right ahead with my blessing, for all I care. I can get behind the kind of relationship angst that comes from a love triangle, relationship angst being my bulletproof emotional kink. (Not when the couple is married, though; I'm very anti-marital-cheating.) What I hate is character bashing, choosing to accuse a character of being a dirty, cheating whore on little to no evidence of wrongdoing and screeching about it all over fandom. Woman-bashing, especially, I can't get in line for, and though I was a little taken aback for Ronon's sake by Jennifer flirting with Rodney, at first, I get now that there wasn't meant to be anything serious implied between her and Ronon, so I'm over that. So any big-whore-Jennifer stuff bugs the hell out of me, and now we're also going to get Jen-bashing for coming between the OTP slash ship, aren't we? *sigh* I've hated the way some slashers have treated women who might potentially be in the way of their woobie pairing since forever, and now I imagine we'll get it in spades. Thanks for reminding me. *sigh* Again, a little triangular angst isn't a problem for me; I like it. Bashing, though, makes me want to pinch heads. I really wish bash warnings on stories were, like, the law, or something. Since they're not, I'm going to have to keep relying on the kindness of reccers.

[tielan]

I had forgotten the convo in Sunday, but it certainly does point to Kanaan being the man she meant.

*g* Actually, I think the conversation in 'Sunday' points entirely to John being the one that Teyla has the crush on.

"I should hope so" could ring for John as much as one of her own people. The fact is that Teyla should know John better (as his team-mate and friend) than a random scientist in the city does. Dr. Hewston probably knew 'Colonel Sheppard' by reputation more than anything else.

The fact that she mentions the customs of her people also works against Kanaan. If it was Kanaan she was interested in, she wouldn't bother bringing up the customs of her people. Kanaan would know he'd have to make the first move, and she wouldn't feel the need to emphasise it. If she's interested in him and he's not making the first move, then obviously he's not interested. End of story.

As to Teyla being flexible and adaptive... We all have our flexible areas, where we can adapt, and our areas where we like to follow tradition. Sometimes we're not even aware of how strongly we need them.

I have a friend who got married nearly a year ago. Neither she or her husband are even faintly religious, but when they were talking marriage, he asked her, "Do you want the wedding in a church?" Her first instinct was to ask, "Why would we want it in a church?" And then she paused, thought about it and realised that something in her wanted to have the marriage acknowledged by a higher power.

Tradition. We don't always flip our own switches. I believe that Teyla didn't know how firmly this switch was flipped until she realised John wasn't going to make a move, and she couldn't bring herself to make the first approach.

Think about what we've seen of Teyla in the show. She's never encouraged anyone. Never flirted with anyone. Her manners are straight down the line, friendship, friendly, caring, but never flirty. She shoots straight - it's instinctive in her.

Maybe Teyla wasn't willing to rock the boat for the "usual reasons": they're friends, it's a good friendship, they work together, it's not traditionally allowed in John's organisation. Add to that any of her personal estimations of John's emotional state, and then layer on top of that her people's custom that the man makes the first move.

It's not any one single thing, it's the whole picture, synergistically connected.

Even retrospectively, a crush on Kanaan doesn't gel. In 'Missing' she tells Jennifer that they've been friends for a long time, but this development is recent and new. She doesn't say she's been hoping for it for a long time, or that she's cared about him a long time; she says they're friends and this development is new.

There's also a shyness in her, a hesitation that I read as a kind of embarrassment, which I take to mean she never saw this one coming - it blindsided her.

No, I'm still completely convinced that the conversation in 'Sunday' is about liking John.

My reference to 'Sunday' was entirely about "the man making the first move" which is clearly important to Teyla in this situation. And ties in with Kanaan making the first move and John not making the first move.

So, um, you got the right scene, but we're at 180degree interpretations of it.

*g*

What I hate is character bashing, choosing to accuse a character of being a dirty, cheating whore on little to no evidence of wrongdoing and screeching about it all over fandom.

Angst triangles? I got no problem with. Your bulletproof kink? It's actually mine, too. *g* (But, again, no marital cheating. Big no-no.)

Bitching on a woman for choosing between two men...that's another issue. We're talking about fics where John takes it out on Teyla that she slept with Kanaan, in spite of the fact that they had no explicit agreement between them. We're talking about fics where Teyla's tearful and apologetic that she 'betrayed' John by sleeping with Kanaan and bearing his child.

That's the kind of attitude I'm seeing - in fic and in post. And to tell you the truth, I'm feeling seriously pissed off about it.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

Oops! *g* Way to misinterpret what you meant, there. I still hold to my reading of it, of course (when do I not? ;), influenced in part by my belief that this was probably meant by the writers to foreshadow the Teyla/Kanaan relationship, but, even if it weren't, and taken entirely on its own merits? Yeah, Kanaan. An argument can be made for it being John, of course--which you just did--but that's more of a stretch, IMO. We have no reason to believe the friend doesn't know John, at least a little--it's a small community, and just because it's never been showcased--well, Rodney was on the brink of proposal to a woman we've seen him with, maybe, three times? And I think what she told Jen jibes with it, too, as a thing that's been brewing for a while, and her shyness is about her being a private person--no one really knew this was going on because she's kept it that way. So, no, I'm going with the foreshadowing and Kanaan, not John. But there's no reason it can't be spun either way. I'm all about the happy spin.

If I were seeing stories that treated Teyla that way, I'd be spitting mad, too. I'm still scarred from how Sam was treated back in SG1 over her relationship with Pete. *shudders* Some of my trepidation about attempting unrecced het fic comes from there. (Well, and those stories where she realizes all she ever really wanted to do was be a happy homemaker and have Jack's babies. *headdesk*) We could start a bash-warning alert list, maybe--you take the het side, I'll take the slash. *g*

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

JM said in his blog once (and I mean circa S4, not at the time) that it wasn't Kanaan Teyla was referring to. You can take that for what it's worth--since it was never established canonically, they could decide at any point that it was, and JM not only isn't good at continuity himself, he thinks it's a contemptible quality to remember lines from one episode to the next! But still.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

It's hard to know how to take what JM says, sometimes, because he's an asshat *g* but if he says they weren't thinking of her eventual baby-daddy when they had her say that, then I'll believe him. I think he'd remember if it were intended. It's the sort of deliberate, intentional foreshadowing that would have been discussed if it were done, and he'd have remembered that, so, no. Did he say if there were anyone intended, at all? Or was it an open-ended thing (that they could retcon later, if they chose?) I'm still leaning toward an Athosian and not John, whether it was Kanaan or not. The thing she has (or not-has) with John is vague and fraught enough that I don't see her discussing it with what's-her-name.

[tielan]

Did he say if there were anyone intended, at all?

In the S3 DVD commentary, Martin Wood, writer of the episode, said that it was supposed to be foreshadowing for John.

So, yeah, they had someone in mind for it.

I think that in S4, they were planning to develop a John/Teyla relationship just that little bit further (kind of Sam/Jack in S4)...until Rachel got pregnant and they realised they either had to go all the way in the relationship (big SG no-no) or ditch it for the season.

Okay, well, they angst-bunnied John out. WOE IS JOHN. *pets the hair*

I'm convinced that Kanaan was a writing ret-con. "Oh, crap, Rachel's preggers and so's Teyla. She needs to have slept with someone or else been artificially impregnated by Michael - but the timing's awful for that... Okay, random Athosian that we won't meet for a while because, hey, they're all missing as per original S4 plan..."

It's the kind of jigsaw-puzzle plan that TPTB tend to put together to fill a hole without really thinking about the far-reaching consequences of what they're doing.

*smacks them over the head*

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

Well, dude, then you should say! *g* Authorial intent is what canon's all about; there's playing with the text, but then there's what was intended by the writers, which isn't important to everyone, I know, but it's the last word in canon, as far as I'm concerned. So, yes, if they've said it was John, it was John. I've been giving them more credit for having a plan and following it to where we are now than they've deserved. Wouldn't be the first time, though. *g*

[tielan]

Authorial intent is what canon's all about;

LOL. I've been hearing the exact opposite from most of fandom. "If they haven't made it clear in the canon, then it's not definite." Etcetera, so on, and so forth. :)

Hence why I didn't reveal it.

I've been giving them more credit for having a plan and following it to where we are now than they've deserved.

Generally, with these PTB, they do what they do, and you pick "the plan" out of the wreckage afterwards. :) I mean, they do an okay job for what the show is and within their writing skills. But in the hands of some really good, tight, continuity-based writers? Stargate Atlantis could knock sox off.

(Then again, I guess most people aren't in SGA for the knocking off of sox!)

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

I've been hearing the exact opposite from most of fandom.

Yeah, I know, and I'm usually all about the death of the author and text standing on its own, unless it's source text, a show or a movie or a book that derivative text spins off from. I guess that's because I feel that, when text is used in this way, it needs a center, a sort of core of "truth" that's like the laws of nature. It's less text and more a world, and that world has boundaries and realities that we can work with or manipulate, as we chose, but with an understanding of what those realities are--and those come from the mind of the creators. Otherwise, one can easily stray into "What show are you watching, exactly?" territory. *g* Not that I begrudge anyone their own creative interpretations of what they see, even if they contradict the intent of the creators--it's all about having fun, after all. I will argue pretty vigorously about canon being created by the creators, though, if one is intending to work from a "this is what this show is all about" standpoint, rather than a "this is what I want this show to be about" position. If it's all open to interpretation, then there is no canon. If there is a canon, it's not created through individual interpretation, or even consumer consensus; if you want canon, you go to the source. My approach to canonicity in a nutshell. *g* But I know not everyone feels that way about it, and that's okay. As long as they don't try to argue it with me. *eg*

Then again, I guess most people aren't in SGA for the knocking off of sox!

Er, not that kind, anyway. ;)

[cherryblosomjen.livejournal.com]

In the S3 DVD commentary, Martin Wood, writer of the episode, said that it was supposed to be foreshadowing for John.

*gasp* That's shocking to me. And very sad. I've started to accept that my favorite 'ships will probably never get much from canon, so the news that John/Teyla might actually have been developed is bittersweet. It makes me happy on one note, but disappoints me on the other since it now looks even more impossible for the future.

I can't wait 'til you actually get to see the last few episodes, Tielan. 1) I want to see what you think of them and 2) I'm utterly depressed about certain aspects of the finale and figure your insight might put me in a better mood.

[tielan]

I'm afraid it's going to be at least a week before I get around to watching the finale - or all the other SGA eps that I haven't yet seen...

Look at it this way: it's all an AU. Like the SG1 episode 2010.

[cherryblosomjen.livejournal.com]

That's a good point. It does make me feel better. And a week or so isn't too long to wait for your reviews (if you decide you're in the mood to write some, that is) so I'll just be patient until then.

I hope you enjoy watching them. I certainly found them interesting on a lot of levels, even if everything wasn't as I might have wanted.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

I'm very happy that RL got to have a baby, really, but I kind of want to live in the AU where she didn't get pregnant for another couple of years. To know that the writers were actually trying to make S4 better, only to prove utterly unable to cope with the pregnancy, is actually a little more painful than if they had carried on in S3 teyla-is-wallpaper fashion.

[tielan]

I kind of want to live in the AU where she didn't get pregnant for another couple of years

Yeah, I know the feeling. I'm happy for Rachel, but the situation sucks for Teyla as a character. Particularly since the attitude I'm getting from TPTB is now "well, we've done our bit for Teyla, time to get back to the white geekboys that we identify with."

*sigh*

[greenconverses.livejournal.com]

Since we've talked several times about my issues with the Kanaan-hatas and author's punishing Teyla for having a romantic relationship other than John, I don't feel like I can add anything more to that discussion other than a healthy amount of word.

As for your season five worries, I hope that the PTB actually pull something off and let Teyla actually participate in stuff this year. Ronon got increased screen time this season - not anywhere near Rodney and John's, of course, but we saw him and got to know him better than we did in S3 IMO.

Part of the problem with the back half of this season was that Rachel went on maternity leave and she was missing from three episodes - which I completely understand on Rachel's behalf, but I can't let PTB get away with. Not even mentioning her or what she was doing during those episodes? Lazy writing. And it's not like they couldn't have picked up a few shots for those episodes while Rachel was still around.

And my hopes for the Teyla episode aren't too high this year. The episode title is The Queen so, unless the PTB do something completely unexpected (ha!), you can guess where that's leading to.

Eep! I'm letting my frustrations with TPTB show! *runs off*

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

I always see the freaking out of shippers about a pairing getting in the way of their one twu luv to be uncreative writers. But then, I'm a bitch.

[amathela.livejournal.com]

I would say that there was always the possibility of more, but they never codified it between themselves, and so it was at a standstill when Kanaan made his move.

That's exactly the way I see it. Depending on how you read the conversation in Sunday, Teyla may or may not have explicitly acknowledged feelings for John (though not to John himself); John, on the other hand, while he may have feelings for Teyla, certainly isn't acknowledging them to anyone else, and maybe not even to himself. And even if they're both aware of the other's feelings ... I can see John believing they have some sort of understanding, because he's all repression-don't-talk-about-it guy, but I can't see Teyla believing herself to be in a relationship (or pre-relationship, or having an "understanding") with someone unless they'd, y'know, actually talked about it. John never made his move, and even if she did have feelings for him and/or believed that he had feelings for her, I'm hardly going to fault a girl for not sitting around pining after someone emotionally unavailable instead of actually going out and trying to be happy.

[tielan]

BINGO!

I'm hardly going to fault a girl for not sitting around pining after someone emotionally unavailable instead of actually going out and trying to be happy.

And that's the big issue for a lot of people complaining about the Teyla/Kanaan thing: that she should have waited for John, however long it took him to pull his game up.

I encountered this in earlier seasons, too: "Teyla's just waiting for John to stop chasing those alien women and notice her!" It is, in my opinion, the worst kind of label to put on a woman - the faithful little woman just waiting for her beloved man to look her way and notice her!

UGH.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

we decided that there should be a RONON NEEDS LOVE club.

And Jason agrees! Or, that he needs to get some, anyway (Ronon, I mean. *g*) I just recently saw the interview (done early in the season) where he talks about how it's been more than long enough since the death of his woobie for Ronon to be seeing some action, but, sadly, he isn't. There you go! Bring it on! :)

I had forgotten the convo in Sunday, but it certainly does point to Kanaan being the man she meant. The other women says, well, you know him better than I do, and Teyla responds, I should think so! Sort of a "well, duh," on Teyla's part, which would certainly be apt if the man she meant were Athosian. And she also says that her people do things differently when it's suggested to her that she just approach the guy; if she had meant John, she wouldn't have been as invested in how her people conduct courtship, IMO. She wasn't saying "As a woman, I should not approach John because that is not what my people do," she was saying, "I should not approach Kanaan because that's not what he would expect me to do." Because Teyla, living apart from her people and immersed in the culture of the new Atlanteas, wouldn't worry about John following (or even being aware of) the precepts of her people in courtship, and wouldn't be so hidebound that she felt she had to follow them with this alien man, either. She's already demonstrated her adaptability, and, even though she does care about and follow many of her people's ways, she'd also be canny enough to realize that any woman who waits for John Sheppard to see it coming probably has a long wait ahead of her. *g* So, yes, I see that convo the same way--good catch.

Though, you know, anyone who wants to write yer-cheatin'-heart fic about Teyla/Kanaan/John can go right ahead with my blessing, for all I care. I can get behind the kind of relationship angst that comes from a love triangle, relationship angst being my bulletproof emotional kink. (Not when the couple is married, though; I'm very anti-marital-cheating.) What I hate is character bashing, choosing to accuse a character of being a dirty, cheating whore on little to no evidence of wrongdoing and screeching about it all over fandom. Woman-bashing, especially, I can't get in line for, and though I was a little taken aback for Ronon's sake by Jennifer flirting with Rodney, at first, I get now that there wasn't meant to be anything serious implied between her and Ronon, so I'm over that. So any big-whore-Jennifer stuff bugs the hell out of me, and now we're also going to get Jen-bashing for coming between the OTP slash ship, aren't we? *sigh* I've hated the way some slashers have treated women who might potentially be in the way of their woobie pairing since forever, and now I imagine we'll get it in spades. Thanks for reminding me. *sigh* Again, a little triangular angst isn't a problem for me; I like it. Bashing, though, makes me want to pinch heads. I really wish bash warnings on stories were, like, the law, or something. Since they're not, I'm going to have to keep relying on the kindness of reccers.

[tielan]

I had forgotten the convo in Sunday, but it certainly does point to Kanaan being the man she meant.

*g* Actually, I think the conversation in 'Sunday' points entirely to John being the one that Teyla has the crush on.

"I should hope so" could ring for John as much as one of her own people. The fact is that Teyla should know John better (as his team-mate and friend) than a random scientist in the city does. Dr. Hewston probably knew 'Colonel Sheppard' by reputation more than anything else.

The fact that she mentions the customs of her people also works against Kanaan. If it was Kanaan she was interested in, she wouldn't bother bringing up the customs of her people. Kanaan would know he'd have to make the first move, and she wouldn't feel the need to emphasise it. If she's interested in him and he's not making the first move, then obviously he's not interested. End of story.

As to Teyla being flexible and adaptive... We all have our flexible areas, where we can adapt, and our areas where we like to follow tradition. Sometimes we're not even aware of how strongly we need them.

I have a friend who got married nearly a year ago. Neither she or her husband are even faintly religious, but when they were talking marriage, he asked her, "Do you want the wedding in a church?" Her first instinct was to ask, "Why would we want it in a church?" And then she paused, thought about it and realised that something in her wanted to have the marriage acknowledged by a higher power.

Tradition. We don't always flip our own switches. I believe that Teyla didn't know how firmly this switch was flipped until she realised John wasn't going to make a move, and she couldn't bring herself to make the first approach.

Think about what we've seen of Teyla in the show. She's never encouraged anyone. Never flirted with anyone. Her manners are straight down the line, friendship, friendly, caring, but never flirty. She shoots straight - it's instinctive in her.

Maybe Teyla wasn't willing to rock the boat for the "usual reasons": they're friends, it's a good friendship, they work together, it's not traditionally allowed in John's organisation. Add to that any of her personal estimations of John's emotional state, and then layer on top of that her people's custom that the man makes the first move.

It's not any one single thing, it's the whole picture, synergistically connected.

Even retrospectively, a crush on Kanaan doesn't gel. In 'Missing' she tells Jennifer that they've been friends for a long time, but this development is recent and new. She doesn't say she's been hoping for it for a long time, or that she's cared about him a long time; she says they're friends and this development is new.

There's also a shyness in her, a hesitation that I read as a kind of embarrassment, which I take to mean she never saw this one coming - it blindsided her.

No, I'm still completely convinced that the conversation in 'Sunday' is about liking John.

My reference to 'Sunday' was entirely about "the man making the first move" which is clearly important to Teyla in this situation. And ties in with Kanaan making the first move and John not making the first move.

So, um, you got the right scene, but we're at 180degree interpretations of it.

*g*

What I hate is character bashing, choosing to accuse a character of being a dirty, cheating whore on little to no evidence of wrongdoing and screeching about it all over fandom.

Angst triangles? I got no problem with. Your bulletproof kink? It's actually mine, too. *g* (But, again, no marital cheating. Big no-no.)

Bitching on a woman for choosing between two men...that's another issue. We're talking about fics where John takes it out on Teyla that she slept with Kanaan, in spite of the fact that they had no explicit agreement between them. We're talking about fics where Teyla's tearful and apologetic that she 'betrayed' John by sleeping with Kanaan and bearing his child.

That's the kind of attitude I'm seeing - in fic and in post. And to tell you the truth, I'm feeling seriously pissed off about it.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

Oops! *g* Way to misinterpret what you meant, there. I still hold to my reading of it, of course (when do I not? ;), influenced in part by my belief that this was probably meant by the writers to foreshadow the Teyla/Kanaan relationship, but, even if it weren't, and taken entirely on its own merits? Yeah, Kanaan. An argument can be made for it being John, of course--which you just did--but that's more of a stretch, IMO. We have no reason to believe the friend doesn't know John, at least a little--it's a small community, and just because it's never been showcased--well, Rodney was on the brink of proposal to a woman we've seen him with, maybe, three times? And I think what she told Jen jibes with it, too, as a thing that's been brewing for a while, and her shyness is about her being a private person--no one really knew this was going on because she's kept it that way. So, no, I'm going with the foreshadowing and Kanaan, not John. But there's no reason it can't be spun either way. I'm all about the happy spin.

If I were seeing stories that treated Teyla that way, I'd be spitting mad, too. I'm still scarred from how Sam was treated back in SG1 over her relationship with Pete. *shudders* Some of my trepidation about attempting unrecced het fic comes from there. (Well, and those stories where she realizes all she ever really wanted to do was be a happy homemaker and have Jack's babies. *headdesk*) We could start a bash-warning alert list, maybe--you take the het side, I'll take the slash. *g*

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

JM said in his blog once (and I mean circa S4, not at the time) that it wasn't Kanaan Teyla was referring to. You can take that for what it's worth--since it was never established canonically, they could decide at any point that it was, and JM not only isn't good at continuity himself, he thinks it's a contemptible quality to remember lines from one episode to the next! But still.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

It's hard to know how to take what JM says, sometimes, because he's an asshat *g* but if he says they weren't thinking of her eventual baby-daddy when they had her say that, then I'll believe him. I think he'd remember if it were intended. It's the sort of deliberate, intentional foreshadowing that would have been discussed if it were done, and he'd have remembered that, so, no. Did he say if there were anyone intended, at all? Or was it an open-ended thing (that they could retcon later, if they chose?) I'm still leaning toward an Athosian and not John, whether it was Kanaan or not. The thing she has (or not-has) with John is vague and fraught enough that I don't see her discussing it with what's-her-name.

[tielan]

Did he say if there were anyone intended, at all?

In the S3 DVD commentary, Martin Wood, writer of the episode, said that it was supposed to be foreshadowing for John.

So, yeah, they had someone in mind for it.

I think that in S4, they were planning to develop a John/Teyla relationship just that little bit further (kind of Sam/Jack in S4)...until Rachel got pregnant and they realised they either had to go all the way in the relationship (big SG no-no) or ditch it for the season.

Okay, well, they angst-bunnied John out. WOE IS JOHN. *pets the hair*

I'm convinced that Kanaan was a writing ret-con. "Oh, crap, Rachel's preggers and so's Teyla. She needs to have slept with someone or else been artificially impregnated by Michael - but the timing's awful for that... Okay, random Athosian that we won't meet for a while because, hey, they're all missing as per original S4 plan..."

It's the kind of jigsaw-puzzle plan that TPTB tend to put together to fill a hole without really thinking about the far-reaching consequences of what they're doing.

*smacks them over the head*

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

Well, dude, then you should say! *g* Authorial intent is what canon's all about; there's playing with the text, but then there's what was intended by the writers, which isn't important to everyone, I know, but it's the last word in canon, as far as I'm concerned. So, yes, if they've said it was John, it was John. I've been giving them more credit for having a plan and following it to where we are now than they've deserved. Wouldn't be the first time, though. *g*

[tielan]

Authorial intent is what canon's all about;

LOL. I've been hearing the exact opposite from most of fandom. "If they haven't made it clear in the canon, then it's not definite." Etcetera, so on, and so forth. :)

Hence why I didn't reveal it.

I've been giving them more credit for having a plan and following it to where we are now than they've deserved.

Generally, with these PTB, they do what they do, and you pick "the plan" out of the wreckage afterwards. :) I mean, they do an okay job for what the show is and within their writing skills. But in the hands of some really good, tight, continuity-based writers? Stargate Atlantis could knock sox off.

(Then again, I guess most people aren't in SGA for the knocking off of sox!)

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

I've been hearing the exact opposite from most of fandom.

Yeah, I know, and I'm usually all about the death of the author and text standing on its own, unless it's source text, a show or a movie or a book that derivative text spins off from. I guess that's because I feel that, when text is used in this way, it needs a center, a sort of core of "truth" that's like the laws of nature. It's less text and more a world, and that world has boundaries and realities that we can work with or manipulate, as we chose, but with an understanding of what those realities are--and those come from the mind of the creators. Otherwise, one can easily stray into "What show are you watching, exactly?" territory. *g* Not that I begrudge anyone their own creative interpretations of what they see, even if they contradict the intent of the creators--it's all about having fun, after all. I will argue pretty vigorously about canon being created by the creators, though, if one is intending to work from a "this is what this show is all about" standpoint, rather than a "this is what I want this show to be about" position. If it's all open to interpretation, then there is no canon. If there is a canon, it's not created through individual interpretation, or even consumer consensus; if you want canon, you go to the source. My approach to canonicity in a nutshell. *g* But I know not everyone feels that way about it, and that's okay. As long as they don't try to argue it with me. *eg*

Then again, I guess most people aren't in SGA for the knocking off of sox!

Er, not that kind, anyway. ;)

[cherryblosomjen.livejournal.com]

In the S3 DVD commentary, Martin Wood, writer of the episode, said that it was supposed to be foreshadowing for John.

*gasp* That's shocking to me. And very sad. I've started to accept that my favorite 'ships will probably never get much from canon, so the news that John/Teyla might actually have been developed is bittersweet. It makes me happy on one note, but disappoints me on the other since it now looks even more impossible for the future.

I can't wait 'til you actually get to see the last few episodes, Tielan. 1) I want to see what you think of them and 2) I'm utterly depressed about certain aspects of the finale and figure your insight might put me in a better mood.

[tielan]

I'm afraid it's going to be at least a week before I get around to watching the finale - or all the other SGA eps that I haven't yet seen...

Look at it this way: it's all an AU. Like the SG1 episode 2010.

[cherryblosomjen.livejournal.com]

That's a good point. It does make me feel better. And a week or so isn't too long to wait for your reviews (if you decide you're in the mood to write some, that is) so I'll just be patient until then.

I hope you enjoy watching them. I certainly found them interesting on a lot of levels, even if everything wasn't as I might have wanted.

[harriet-spy.livejournal.com]

I'm very happy that RL got to have a baby, really, but I kind of want to live in the AU where she didn't get pregnant for another couple of years. To know that the writers were actually trying to make S4 better, only to prove utterly unable to cope with the pregnancy, is actually a little more painful than if they had carried on in S3 teyla-is-wallpaper fashion.

[tielan]

I kind of want to live in the AU where she didn't get pregnant for another couple of years

Yeah, I know the feeling. I'm happy for Rachel, but the situation sucks for Teyla as a character. Particularly since the attitude I'm getting from TPTB is now "well, we've done our bit for Teyla, time to get back to the white geekboys that we identify with."

*sigh*

[greenconverses.livejournal.com]

Since we've talked several times about my issues with the Kanaan-hatas and author's punishing Teyla for having a romantic relationship other than John, I don't feel like I can add anything more to that discussion other than a healthy amount of word.

As for your season five worries, I hope that the PTB actually pull something off and let Teyla actually participate in stuff this year. Ronon got increased screen time this season - not anywhere near Rodney and John's, of course, but we saw him and got to know him better than we did in S3 IMO.

Part of the problem with the back half of this season was that Rachel went on maternity leave and she was missing from three episodes - which I completely understand on Rachel's behalf, but I can't let PTB get away with. Not even mentioning her or what she was doing during those episodes? Lazy writing. And it's not like they couldn't have picked up a few shots for those episodes while Rachel was still around.

And my hopes for the Teyla episode aren't too high this year. The episode title is The Queen so, unless the PTB do something completely unexpected (ha!), you can guess where that's leading to.

Eep! I'm letting my frustrations with TPTB show! *runs off*

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

I always see the freaking out of shippers about a pairing getting in the way of their one twu luv to be uncreative writers. But then, I'm a bitch.