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"How could anyone love a stone in their shoe?"
~ The Stepmother, Ever After ~
~ The Stepmother, Ever After ~
*breathes*
It started with an author called Elizabeth Bear talking about writing the Other without being a dick. Unfortunately, someone pointed out a story of hers which features a magical negro who is 'tamed' by a white woman and stating that it was problematic.
It turned into a big argument about cultural appropriation: who has the right to write about non-whites, how our society perceives and stereotypes the Other (African, Asian, Indian, Oriental, Pacific Islander, Eskimo, Alien), how perfectly nice people can be racist without ever realising it, how it always comes back to the satisfaction and emotional catharsis of white people at the expense of the persons of colour trying to say "I am here, my pain is real, don't ignore what I have to say or dismiss it just because you don't want to hear that you put your foot wrong and might have to apologise."
I'm no good at talking about this stuff - I can't talk about a broader experience, I can only talk about my own experience.
One thing that's repeatedly come up is that white fans feel fandom is their safe space and their place to have fun. That to question the racial assumptions, cultural appropriations, and racist attitudes of fandom is to effectively deny white people their 'safe space', where they can happily squee and post fannishly and never have to question their choices or behaviours or feel guilty about the weight of history upon them regarding racist behaviours, a racist system, and how POC can't hide that they're POC.
And so I sit here and post these thoughts and try to broaden my perspectives and watch as the people who read this journal amble by without ever reading or commenting.
My f-list is primarily fannish. People who like my fic - whatever aspect that might be. People who once liked me. There are a handful of people who are both fannish and people of colour, but they're just that - a handful.
And so I watch the comments rack up on my fiction and wonder if I am the fly in the ointment of my f-list's f-lists.
Am I the crazy lady on the train?
Am I the stone in the shoe?
And if so, are the only options to wince and bear it or to throw the stone away?
Which do you choose?
Do you wince and bear these posts of mine and others like me? Or do you skip over them, safe in the knowledge that tomorrow, next week, next month, I/we/they might post something that you're actually interested in - something that's relevant to you, that doesn't challenge you and your way of looking at the world in any way?
Sometimes I wonder.
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Its been a very very long time since I created something fannish, and I suppose it helps/hinders that most of my fandoms are very very white and so I can dip my toes in this without the fear of mireing myself in my own privledge (wich I understand is a priviledge in itself- Im still working through this)
IN CONCULSION: I find these posts thoughtful and helpful.
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I also think that a lot of people don't really know how to respond to such posts. I made one the other day about the ignorant behaviour of non-disabled people towards walking-aid/wheelchair users - I really hope that more people read that than the three who actually responded, one of whom is actually disabled and wasn't the intended target of the post. But I am extremely aware of the fact that a lot of people do not know how to deal with me as a person and that they really don't wish to be challenged on their prejudice, which they validate by such comments as - "I have disabled friends - how can I be ableist?" "I'm talking to you aren't I?" and "I'm a PoC and I experience prejudice - why would I other you?"
I think sometimes the only way to go is to keep at the posting in the hope that it sinks in with some people that these sort of posts aren't going away, exactly like prejudice isn't.
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In this discussion, however, it's especially frustrating because this isn't knowledge that's never been imparted before - this is old news, rehashed, and very few people seem to be learning, let alone growing.
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I believe people can create havens together, but those places only remain a haven for all so long as they deal with the concerns of all. Anytime one person is passed over or shoved down, the haven ceases to be and a clique is formed. If one person is tossed aside, what is keeping me from being the next to go? When the majority becomes the rule, no one is safe is anymore.
You are no stone to me. I need and want other viewpoints. Yeah, I do worry about how to write POCs and other perspectives not my own. I'm not asking to be taught, though. Just keep the meta coming. Give me more ways to see. And, when I screw up, tell me. *shrugs* Then again, I enjoy the whole 'thinking' thing. A place without thought, without questions isn't a safe place, imo, it's more a bit of hell.
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But, as George W Bush and the USA proved for the last 8 years, blind faith and unquestioning certainty is something that many people yearn for.
Perhaps the people questioning the validity of POC experience wouldn't subscribe to Dubya's specific brand of blind faith and unquestioning certainty, but the unhesitating belief that 'I Cannot Be Wrong. To question if I am right suggests I might be wrong. And I cannot be wrong. Therefore, I am Right and any issue between us is Your Problem and nothing to do with me.' is a part of human nature.
It's not right, perhaps, but it's very real.
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In addition to which, you expand my horizons, too.
On "being wrong"
This is interesting to me because I have been raised to believe just the opposite of that. Probably 50 percent because my dad was a scientist and 50 percent because my country is nazi country. So I wake up every day knowing that I could be wrong, that most likely I'm very wrong all the time, that once there was a time when people in MY country, people who are like me were so deeply and horrifyingly dead wrong that there are next to no words for it.
And I think that is why Bush freaks us out so much. Because we look at the US and think, well, once there was a time when we were one 100 percent sure that we were right and we were patriotic and we waged war and we were going to win and we were DEAD WRONG. How can you live and be sure you aren't wrong? How can you ever risk it? Especially when you have like scary stuff like nuclear bombs at your disposal. I know Americans talk about fate and being chosen in particular, but our guys said the same thing and they were still horrible and evil and people still went for it.
Errr, to cut our personal issues short, we for one have to be raised to never be sure of anything we say and always take into consideration that all the others might be right. And we are one step away from checking ourselves everyday to make sure we haven't grown horns and a devil's tail overnight and find it shocking that others don't do that as well :D
(of course the we is a very optimistic we, I dearly wish I could speak for all Germans/Austrians, though that is way too optimistic;)
Re: On "being wrong"
My own personal experience is one of self-questioning. I was brought up Christian - Evangelical Christian as I was taught to identify myself, and yet far from the rather rigid, unthinking obedience of American Evangelicalism.
In childhood, one of the core things I learned was that I was a sinner - not in a disgusting, filthy way, just someone who wasn't perfect and who needed Jesus and to work towards perfection.
Sometimes I find it ironic that the same religion/faith provides people who question their Goodness with the reason for examining themselves while providing others with the excuse of blind, unthinking certainty that They Are On The Side Of The Angels.
Evangelical Christianity
Hear, hear!
It's really interesting how evangelical seems to mean something entirely different based on where it is from. It seems to be the nature that in the US it means rigid and firm by the book. While in my country the evangelicals are the ones who are openminded and loving and inclusive compared to the Catholics, performing gay marriage, having women priests, being openminded and inclusive etc. For us here (and maybe generally for the rest of the world?) evangelical usually means loving and liberal, while in the US it usually seems to mean hardcore that in comparison Catholics look progressive for a second.
Zhe world, it's odd sometimes.
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Personally, I try to disregard colour/race/etc, when dealing with people. I think that to a point, discrimination is, unfortunately, a part of life. Some white people might look down their nose at people of colour, but some people of colour look also down their nose at white people. And some people, they look down their nose at their own kind.
As such, I tend not get worked up by issues regarding race/colour/etc in fandom, so long as it's nothing particularly offensive. Also, I think political incorrectness can be found in almost anything if you're looking for it. I do like reading your posts though, they're a different persepective, which is always good to have. :)
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Although considering you're one of the few, if not the only, sources of meta on my flist, you can be the crazy lady on the train if you want to be. :p
not all racism is equal
To repost a reply I made to a comment in someone else's locked post:Many people - both the nice and the nasty - don't stop and question their beliefs, question their attitudes. A lot of people don't question that the representatives of the alien races are all coloured, or that the reps of the technologically advanced human races are all white. People assume that the "best roles go to the best actors" but never look at the racist foundations of such a statement when 99% of the "best roles" end up played by white people - that coloured actors just aren't as good as whites.
So, yes, I see where you're coming from in that, as an individual, you disregard colour and race in your interactions; but there's more to it than just the individual - there's the social structure in which we exist and interact and hold our beliefs about race.
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I am sad to see these posts, but only because you seem so sad and frustrated about it. I wish you didn't have to make them. I am glad you're writing about it.
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I wish I had profound and useful things to say on this issue, but I really don't. I kind of want to holler "But can't we all just get along?" which isn't really very helpful.
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Heh. No, it isn't, I'm afraid.
My problem with 'can't we all just get along' is that I feel it implies that the status quo was perfectly okay until someone started upsetting the balance.
And the person upsetting the balance is always the disadvantaged person. So for things to be 'okay' again, all the disadvantaged person has to do is sit down, shut up, and let the dominant group go back to doing what they were doing before the balance was thrown off.
I know that's not how you meant it, but I suspect that I'm not unique among POC in this feeling: that the dominant group are often pressuring the disadvantaged group to shut up, sit down, keep their discontent to themselves, and not spoil everyone else's fun.
Certainly it's an attitude that some of the more offensive white fans seem to take towards POC complaints of unfairness, exclusion, or the ball-blocking of characters of colour. "Well, that's your problem, I'm having fun over here!"
Again, I know you didn't mean it that way, and you've acknowledged that it's not helpful; but this goes some way towards explaning the itchy feeling I get when someone uses this phrase - in any discussion, not just fannish or racism metas.
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The problem from the more-or-less white person POV (it's tricky being Jewish because we're a minority but we're also mostly white so we don't know quite where we fit here) is what we can do. I hesitate to wade into these debates because I don't want to offend anyone. ::sigh:: Basically I'm a big scaredy cat.
I think it's perfectly legitimate for POC to feel excluded and I don't want anyone to shut up, I just don't quite know what to say other than "Uh...I'm sorry?"
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I think a lot of white Americans, at least, have bought into the idea of Individual Responsibility, the Autonomy of the Individual, to such a degree that it blinds them to seeing that even if their own motives are good, even if they are seriously trying to be inclusive and celebrate diversity and not do racist things, they are still capable of being part of the dominant racist culture that is undoubtedly still the legacy of this country, the progress of the last 40 years notwithstanding. I think that is the place some white people who are aghast at this debate are coming from. They truly see only their own behavior and they can't quite find the bridge into identifying their own white privilege and the way that they in fact benefit from and are part of the racial history of this country. It's all about their individual actions, their individual motives and beliefs. If they have never personally refused to hire a person of color, refused to speak to someone, done something overtly wrong or hateful, they think they're okay. When, of course, it's way more complicated than that.
I've had a lot of confrontations lately in real life, unrelated to the current debate inside the SFF fandom blogosphere, with racism in people I formerly tried to believe were not as bigoted and prejudiced as the Obama election in fact revealed them to be. It's been very hard to listen to this and try to keep my temper, because so many of these people are in my own family. The election brought out opinions that I had no idea they had. Offensive, awful opinions. Shocking opinions.
I'm just pondering one explanation that occurred to me as to how people can be so clueless, not offering this idea of the Religion of Individual Responsibility as an excuse. Because the onus is still on the privileged to fix the system, you know? And to listen and learn and continually check our behavior.
Anyway. I'm rambling so I'll stop now. (Straight whiter than white married woman in the South. Who reads a lot of SF. That's me.)
Thanks again for posting.
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Exactly. That's the battle that POC are fighting and which many white people don't see.
I made an explanation in a friend's f-locked post to someone who didn't get the Racism Of The Individual vs. Cultural Racism. I reposted it during this discussion and the link is here if it helps.
Obama's election is a benchmark, certainly; but I suspect it's more of a Rosa Parks than a sign of burgeoning equality in western, white-dominant societies.
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i'm not sure yet how history will evaluate obama's election, but it certainly gave me a sense of hope and relief that has been so absent for me the last eight years.
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Someone on my flist has repeatedly stated that it's not her place to educate white people, and she's right. On the other hand, if I'm doing something wrong, it's hard to not try to learn from people who are pointing it out.
But when it comes to things like race and sexuality and class, the only thing I'm really sure of is that I can't trust my own opinion of myself. How much of my sense of what is appropriate or inappropriate is shaped by middle class straight white privilege? But I also think that when it comes to people making themselves heard on subjects like these my own relevance and understanding is pretty far down on the scale of importance. So. I don't know.
I do read, though.
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Primarily, I wanted to challenge people to think about how they perceive the race discussions: as something to *sigh* and *rolleyes* about, to skip over, to ignore, to dismiss or deride or complain that it harshes their squee.
We're all shaped and formed by our history: my own is middle class, straight, and 'banana' - yellow skin, white inside. I can get past the inherently racist assumptions of others as, say, some African-Americans can't, because my upbringing was, essentially 'white'. On the other hand, there are some assumptions that I will never escape because I am not white/caucasian in appearance.
There are some assumptions I will make, am making, have made that come from a white dominant perspective: I am at once the oppressor and the oppressed. Which, in some ways, is helpful in this discussion - I've said and done stupid, racist things, and I've had them said and done to me, too. I can see both ways down the street.
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This is because it has been my experience from reading the comments in other posts (not really yours though), that my opinions or rather any opinion that is not in agreement with what the author is saying or is not praising the author is not generally dealt with well. This is not obviously the case all the time and for the most part I cant ever recall you or someone else on your flist being rude to a commenter.
And what I have come to realize is that because, in general I am identified as white, regardless of my history or how I was raised, in what environment or who i grew up with, I am not entitled to share my opinions because at the end of the day I am still white and my plight or suffering or what have you is somehow...not as bad.
I dont know if this is coming out right or if I am going to find my inbox full of angry comments but it seems to me that they are saying my hardships, alienation and other experience is not as bad as someone of color, which I find deeply offensive and very narrow minded.
Now this obviously is a sensitive subject, something very personable and real and private and so I hope I have not offended you.
There is something though, that I have always wanted to bring to peoples attention and that is the story of my grandparents.
They grew up in a county ruled by the British. They were denied the ability to speak in their native tongue and there were rarely, if ever, books available to them in something other than English. They were often beat or killed if they tried to speak their language. My grandmother was forced to learn English and in general my grandparents were treated as second class citizens.
My grandparents are also white. They're Irish.
Not it could be argued that their culture and the British culture is very similar, which it is in many ways but it is also different too. I would like someone like
So I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't consider you the stone in my shoe but there are others out there who are not as nice as you nor as reasonable.
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I don't see anywhere in this post where
I can't speak for
This is not about you.
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Also, never did I suggest that
Also, I am not talking about my experiences here, I made a point to leave them out.
Your response is also what I would consider typical. I am not trying to start an argument, I was simply wanting to share another opinion.
Now I cant really tell from your writing what your tone to me is supposed to be but it seems very hostile and a little rude. If this is not the case then I'm sorry. I would also like to note that it was not my intent to be rude in my previous post nor is it my intent to be so now.
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That should not be taken as making it about you? When people of color make posts about their experiences w/r/t race, it's often the act of dredging up old hurts and painful experiences, and it's very dismissive to come into a post and turn the focus so that it's no longer about that POC but about you. You may not have even realized that that's what you were doing, but that was my impression, and it is very typical response and reflection of your privilege.
I'm not going there with you on my tone. I have not been disrespectful to you.
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I understand where you are coming from, the 'my' wasn't meant to be me but suppose to be those who aren't considered POC in general. In retrosepct I didn't phrase it well, I wasn't trying to make this about me but I was trying to give an example that was different. I was trying to say you can't blanketly say just because someone is white they either dont understand, emphathise or have gone through something similar.
it is very typical response and reflection of your privilege
And by privilege you mean my being white?
I have not been disrespectful to you.
Thank you and I hope I have not been to you because it wasn't my intention.
I would still like to know your ideas on racism vs discrimination though.
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I understand. We have completely didn't readings of this post, because, that wasn't the message I took away at all.
And by privilege you mean my being white?
Yes, your white privilege (http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2006-03-08_146). I highly recommend reading this guide.
I would still like to know your ideas on racism vs discrimination though.
Sorry, I meant to answer your question in my previous reply. I'll just c&p what's found in the link above about the key differences in discriminating against POC vs. whites:
"The same power dynamics that create privilege have created a hierarchy of prejudice so that discrimination against a privileged group is not the same as discrimination against a non-privileged group. This is because discrimination against a non-privileged group is backed up with institutionalized power, whereas discrimination against a privileged group is often a singular act and therefore easier to avoid."
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Oppressed groups (and yes, they are or have been oppressed) Irish and homsosexuals may have been beaten down and discriminated against, but they can pass. Maybe they don't want to. But they can. They can keep their mouth shut or not talk about their sexuality and they won't draw fire for it.
A black person or an Asian person or someone who isn't 'white' doesn't even get the choice to keep their mouth shut. Their very person is a walking, visual, ever-present, inescapable truth: that they are not white.
So, yes, other groups of people, many of them white, experience discrimination; but this discussion is not about them. To make it about them as many people do, some intentionally and some unintentionally(like you), derails the topic to All About Whites again.
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What is important in history is how the people were treated then, not now, which is why using history to prop up an -ism argument is flawed - on either side. When PoC talk about discrimination, I'm more concerned with the here and now, since I cannot change what happened in the past, only how things are now.
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Most people don't question that a white person should always be the hero character or save the day; many don't question that non-whites are always the alien or Other characters, or that the non-whites are relegated to stereotypes or caricatures of people instead of being developed; many don't ask where the pureblood Chinese are in a Sino-American culture, or why there are no Hispanics in So-Cal, or why the main quartet of characters in an entirely Asiatic culture - a culture specifically designed to be non-Western - must be portrayed by white actors, one of whom thinks that all he needs to do to 'pass' as suitably Asian is to get a tan.
These assumptions - those 'pass cards' - are rooted in the racial and racist history of our cultures, in the same way that sexism is rooted in the sexual and sexist history of our cultures. Yes, we bear the weight of history upon us when we enter into these discussions - I think that this linked post looks at the weight of history and how to deal with it, if you're interested.
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I do think that not all "this is how I see it" is necessarily malicious and an exercise in trying to make it all about yourself.
I do get that there are times when it feels along the lines of:
Person A: (stunned) My mother just died
Person B: I know what pain feels like. Did I tell you yet about how when my dog died? Let me tell you all about it!
But other times, I guess to me its just human nature to seek things you have in common. Even if they are indefinitely smaller versions of the real thing. But to me that's just how the mind works. You seek something you can understand and you try to extrapolate it. But you still need that first stone to step on.
Just like, if person A is telling you about how their mother just died, of course you listen and you hold their hand. But you can't really do that forever. At one point you are going to talk to them (though the point might not have been reached yet). And at least for me, when I'm talking to somebody in that situation, I do usually insert things like "This is how I dealt with it" or "This is how somebody I know experienced it". To me, that's how building bridges works. That's how communication eventually works.
I guess I'm trying to say not all of it is ill-natured even in those cases when our tendency to want to be wise-ass comes through (which indeed does deserve to be slapped down. A lot. Hard.).
And there is the other side to it, namely that white people talking to white people might on occasion be good for them. Even if it is boring to POC and therefore maybe should be done in seclusion where POC don't have to read through it while we still try to sort our thoughts.
(visual:
POC (roughly 500 steps ahead): Are you coming now or not?
WP: Be right up, I'm still tying my shoelaces.
(5 hours later)
POC: You know, I'm beginning to suspect that you are just stalling.
WP: *gets huffy and gives a lecture on the importance and history of tying shoelaces while POC bangs head against the wall?
)
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You explained my reasons for sharing my story a lot better than I could have. It was a good explanation for both sides of the argument and I've got a bit of a better understanding why comments like the above can hurtful, even if that's not their intention.
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My mom was offended, and at first so was I (she's my mom, she was just trying to be nice/helpful/condole). But at some point I realized, and told her, that in this case her similar experiences are not the point. The point was, his mother had died. He had had a particular relationship with her that was unique to his childhood; he lost her in a way that was uniquely tragic; and he didn't need anyone to try to share the experience, he needed his experience to be heard and comprehended. I also discovered that if I listened to my husband talk about that loss and talked with him only about what I heard him saying, that helped him a lot more than trying to interpret his words through my own filter.
...and that's the point at which the metaphor fails, because my husband can get past that event in his life. People of color, on the other hand, go on dealing with racism in all its forms.
I don't know. I'm not trying to offer a rule or interpretation or whatever. It's just that having tried to find a way to comprehend what I was hearing by using some kind of shared experience or other experience that I felt I had a better understanding of, I eventually got to the point where it occurred to me that it shouldn't be about me at all. I can't share the experience I was hearing, ever, in any form, because I'm not a person of color, and really it might be more offensive and/or more missing-the-point-entirely to try.
It's kind of like that conversational thing where the moral of the story is 'you're not listening if you're also already composing your own response in your head.' I.e., if I'm hearing something and trying to cross-reference with knowledge already in my mental filing system, I'm not listening. I'm not getting it. So I think maybe I should just only listen, whenever someone speaks.
And as far as eventually wanting to stop tying one's shoelaces and follow, I get that. But maybe this isn't necessarily a question of following. Maybe it's more a question of...after a while you find yourself tying your shoelaces in a more efficient, more secure way because you've been soaking in some ideas from someone else without constantly referring back to what you used to know about how to tie shoelaces. Or something. Er. Yeah, I'm not sure how to carry on that metaphor either. :P
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As thelana says, shared experiences of oppression can be a useful bridge between people - as long as that experience isn't being used to invalidate someone else's experience, which does often happen and is profoundly upsetting and disconcerting.
I would add that some forms of oppression other than race are also visual, and that there are constant attempts to force or require people with "invisible" oppressions to perform them in visually legible ways so that they can be policed and controlled - so I wouldn't completely discount the visual in other cases.
However, every form and experience of oppression is also unique and irreducible.
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I also understand how you could see that what I discussed was outside perhaps what you were asking, which as I understand, was primary about how white people treat POCs, not how white people treat other white people or how black people treat asians or any number of other combination.
I think this goes along the line of what
I hope what I have said above makes sense and isn't offensive.
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As sugargroupie pointed out, though, the tactic of saying "Well, there are other types of oppression in the world, too, that are just as important, and people ignore them!" has often been used to derail discussions about race and racism, colour, and culture - and often tries to turn the conversation to a topic that allows the white people to be oppressed, too, thereby absolving them of any responsibility for the prejudice experienced by POC.
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But I think you're bravely being you, and working through your own experience, and tying it into you experiences as a fan and I reading your posts on fandom and race make me think. They add to my experience as a fan.
You're open, and careful, and raw. That's...I don't really have a handy descriptor for that.
You're doing it for you, and you're out about it, and I think that's admirable and loving. And stubborn. You're determined to just work through all of this in the context of what's happening. And when I read posts like the one you just put up, I'm holding my breath but my eyes are smiling.
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I think I often feel I don't have a 'right' to talk about my experience because it's not the kind of experience that many of the
I know that's bullshit. But I mentioned in my last post about race, that sometimes I wonder if the LJ POC community sees me as something of a pretender. Most of the time, I'm pretty sure they're not. But sometimes I worry all the same.
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See, some of the time, I just point to others, but sometimes I feel like adding my $0.02 to the business. And I hope that it might help people who know me to think about why people they only know as 'bloggers about race' say something that they don't get.
But linking/reccing is always good for raising awareness and promoting less-noticed topics and themes.
Read this one instead. My and my typos. :D
Okay, I usually don't try to bring up racism, but sometimes it's hard to ignore. And alas (and I'm not trying to make a special case), where I live has a HUGE impact on it. My home is backwards. And of course, that's affected me. I rant occasionally, but I also think I'm a pessimist on it all. My parents feel differently, of course, and I feel differently from them, but I've often found I'd rather sit there with my fingers in my ears. To be blunt, I'm just tired.
That being said, two things:
1. Safe? Um no. I read your posts and think seriously about them. They can't be ignored and neither can the subject of them. I guess when it comes to Teyla & Ronon, I've given up on yelling at Darth Mallozzi, because it never does any good. So no, in no way are your posts inert.
2. I don't watch the shows for debatable matter. I watch it for entertainment. That whole rant I had last night about BSG was a severe overreaction, I now realize. Russ was sitting there going "WHY are you taking this so seriously?!?!?" I think the fact is that my fandoms are my escape, and bringing politics and racism and Lord knows what else into it taints it for me. Not to say that people shouldn't! Absolutely. Whatever floats boats.
If you'll allow me to keep going...
It's like when
peopleI read a story (specifically, written by a white author) and the characters are talking...what race do I imagine? White. Because I am white and was raised by white people. Notice how when they introduce an African-American, they SAY "African-American." It's the saddest way of thinking, but unfortunately, we're hardwired by what color of skin raised us.HOWEVER (and this has to do with point 2), with the shows? I really could care less. I don't even NOTICE (which I'm realizing at this moment and am kinda amazed :D). So, when issues of race get brought up in BSG or Stargate or Heroes (especially Heroes), all I'm thinking is, "I didn't even notice that." Obviously, the common response is "Well, you're white and you're happy with the white cast." That's possible. Like I said, hardwired. But if it is, it's subconsciously. I, personally, could've just found everyone neutral the more I grew up and had friends of all ethnicities.
So, for me, fandom is not safe. In fact, my World of Escape is nothing more than that: escape. It's the world working out, when the real world doesn't.
...I may be babbling.
Re: Read this one instead. My and my typos. :D
And all this compounds and adds to the already-pervasive view that coloured people have no stories to tell, nothing important to say, nothing to teach white people about life and living that isn't inferior to what the whites already know.
I'd say you're less 'hardwired' and more 'socialised', which puts a responsibility on you (and me and everyone else on God's green Earth) to keep an eye on that subconscious bias that creeps in.
But if it is, it's subconsciously.
And this is the heart of the problem: a lot of the people currently out there,
bitchingcommenting about the mean and nasty POC who are calling them on their privilege have simply absorbed the racism that pervades our society.Some people don't want to change or reframe their perspectives: that's their choice. I want to not only learn, but grow and change and become a better, fairer person through that self-examination and the painful process of being thwapped upside the head when I've tripped over my own privilege.
Does that make sense?
Re: Read this one instead. My and my typos. :D
I'd say you're less 'hardwired' and more 'socialised', which puts a responsibility on you (and me and everyone else on God's green Earth) to keep an eye on that subconscious bias that creeps in.
And this is the heart of the problem: a lot of the people currently out there,
bitchingcommenting about the mean and nasty POC who are calling them on their privilege have simply absorbed the racism that pervades our society.THESE two statements hit me. Just the idea (though I don't know if "idea" is the correct word) that my societal relationships have really changed the concepts I learned from my parents is intriguing to me. And bizarre. And that's one of the reasons I tend to ignore any racism posts. That responsibility weighs HEAVILY on my mind (yesterday, I couldn't STOP thinking about your post) and it really just plain HURTS when debate/arguments are brought up without thinking outside of the boxes we've been trapped in.
And the last statement? Hurts even more.
To sound extremely personal, it really does tend to hurt your soul when you want to change people's thinking, and (as I've learned) you really just can't change anybody.
It just breaks my heart. And I think sometimes it's easier to sit there with my broken heart than exhaustively trying to change people.
*sigh*
Re: Read this one instead. My and my typos. :D
Easier, yes. But I'm something of a stubborn, outspoken bitch at the core. And I've always wanted to change the world.
I just want everyone to get along.
While the sentiment of 'getting along' is a good one, there's an underlying tone to it that implies that someone's causing trouble and if they'd just shut up, keep their complaints to themselves, and stop ruining the fun for everyone else, then everyone would be fine.
I made a more detailed reply to someone else's comment that mentioned the same phrase.
Re: Read this one instead. My and my typos. :D
Well, I think what I meant (which I never seem to convey what I'm really thinking--something in my brain that keeps me from sorting it out and saying it well, I think...I'm often misunderstood :D) by "getting along" was probably more (in Meg-speak) "Can we all just get the fuck over it?!?!" If people wanna yell at each other, more power to them, but reach a conclusion. Find a middle. Let go of all this anger and bitterness toward each other.
See? Societal. :P
I think I'm just tired.
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You're certainly not a fly in the ointment of my flist!
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Or maybe I just see us/hints of us more.
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I think especially Germans have grown up with an internalized guilt about any kind of oppression. It makes it difficult to discuss anything objectively. No one really blames today's living white US-Americans for slavery (and no one should, though the history obviously means a lot of problems), but since WWII is 'only' two generations in the past, it is still very much present today, even for people like me who are two generations removed from it. It's difficult to debate it without really wanting not be come across as an 'evil Nazi'.
And also, the way racism manifests is just so different here. The whole discrimination of people because of their race/religion (Jews, people from Islamic countries) instead of on race and the way things currently are with the Turkish communities... it just is different from the way I hear about it from US-Americans. I don't know what's worse neither can I judge that nor should there be a hierarchy. There are no affirmative actions for minorities at colleges for example, only a handful minority politicians, but there is also not centuries of bad history standing between the groups. So yeah, different starting point.
And no, I don't really know what i wanted to say with that.
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Which makes me wonder whether they really gravitate more to these posts or if they just "jump my eye" more.
Turkish representation in Germany is a strange thing. Maybe I should do a pondery post about it in my journal once. :) Not here of course since it would be kinda off topic/defeating the purpose of the entry ;D
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*trying not to hijack this post*
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But I think that the learning experience can be replicated for all peoples when dealing with matters of race, presumptions of ownership, and the assumption of a minority ("ethnic") cultural identity by lighter-skinned people towards darker or 'coloured' ones.
I was still taught 'coloured' was an appropriate, not offensive term
Yeah, I was taught that, too. And I did I use it in a fandom discussion the first time. I still do sometimes when I forget. Usually, it takes a subsequent explanation that the term is intended from the speaker (me) as non-pejorative, and a crossout/change.
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But what really caught my eye was your opening quote, because I love that movie and cringe every time that line comes up - it's so horribly visceral. But it also reminds me of another "stone in shoe" quote - from the song "By My Side" in Godspell. The musical is Christian, but the song speaks to me about friendship and love and death and losing people. I think it talks poignantly about meeting the people you need to meet, learning from each other, and then continuing on through life:
"Where are you going?/Where are you going?/Can you take me with you?/For my hand is cold/And needs warmth/Where are you going?/Far beyond where the horizon lies/Where the horizon lies/And the land sinks into mellow blueness/Oh please, take me with you/Let me skip the road with you/I can dare myself/I can dare myself/I'll put a pebble in my shoe/And watch me walk (watch me walk)/I can walk I can walk!/I shall call the pebble Dare/I shall call the pebble Dare/We will walk, we will talk together/About walking Dare shall be carried/And when we both have had enough/I will take him from my shoe, singing/'Meet your new road!' "
Anyway, taking your stone metaphor, I think it can be expanded to consider the way we need to love and appreciate the people who challenge us.
Although, I've never considered you a stone - rather, a writer I enjoy reading.
ETA: I wanted add, regarding "safe space," that for many fandom acts as safe because it doesn't have a bodily presence, and because there are a preponderance of people who are othered in a variety of ways, especially sexual, philosophical, and religious. However, the challenge is to make sure that it's safe for *everyone* - and I think this is a debate we'll always have : about bi-curious and lesbian presence in fandom, about religious diversity, and about race - and there's an effort to be certain that by making the space "safe" for one particular group it doesn't become unsafe for another, which often happens. Thinking of/accepting fandom as a "safe space" for white privilege would be the worst possible betrayal of that ideal, of a place for complexly othered people to all hang out together in harmony.
The safe space metaphor
Everybody can relate to the idea of fandom as a safe space. The issue is that white fen claim fandom as their safe space, but what makes it safe for them might be precisely what makes it unsafe for POC fen.
So, how do we deal with unsafe space? In warning discussions we regularly have the discussions about how people really want rape warnings, because they have so called "triggers" that they want to avoid because they have experiences with rape in real life. This explanation is generally respected.
So, if we framed the safe space problem as being like this, would it make sense? People who endure a lot of race related crap in real life, who are triggered by offesive representation and want to avoid it in fandom, who want fandom to be their safe space?
If we used this logic, wouldn't the logical result be if people started warning for it? No, obviously not along the lines of "this is racist crap", but more like "cpwotc" (clueless person outside their culture) or "wpwotc" (white person writing outside their culture) or even just wpw (white person writer).
Or maybe disclaimers along the lines of "Disclaimer: This might be annoying and offensive to you. Please consider not reading it.".
In the case of rape, warnings and disclaimers protect twofold. The easily triggered person gets to decide whether they really want to take the risk and bother with the fic. And the author who gets called out about it gets to say "Hello, didn't you read the warning? Don't like it, don't read it. If you don't like it, why didn't you hit the back button?".
Of course this is just a half tongue in cheek mind experiment. Tough I do wonder how/whether that would affect writers. Would it make people more aware of what they are writing? Would the writing get more bad? Would there be discussion about it? Would it motivate people to try harder to overcome the wpw label?
I guess that is currently on my mind. If we are trying to discuss race on a larger scale or if the topic really is race and racism in fandom specifically.
Re: The safe space metaphor
To some extent I think the point is the people saying something offensive rarely perceive it in that way - so it would be something other people warn you about - which, I think, is a fairly accurate representation of what we have now - a word-of-mouth system for warning people about writing/conversations that are racially problematic.
Do you remember the incident with the Supernatural RPS fic set in Cambodia awhile back? Something like that might have benefited from some kind of institutionalized warning system - if the author had to stop and consider whether to check a button to warn about potentially offensive representation of a culture not his/her own, that may have produced some deeper thinking - or, it might just have served as the sort of "don't like, don't read" justification that you mention.
But, yes, overall it's unfortunate when one person's quest for safe space undermines someone else's ability to feel safe.
Re: The safe space metaphor
*shudder*
If anything that is the kind of fic that if you want to write it should come with a whole slew of warnings plastered all over it and maybe only be shared on a request/email basis.
That's actually one category where I would wish people would realize that something like this really is on a level with, let's say extreme chan or "she was raped and really enjoyed it" fic. Of course nobody can forbid you to write and think it, but you should at least know that in public environment it is extremely distasteful and should only be posted with the strictest precautions and ideally not in a public forum (like those people who send certain stories out only by email or only post it under friendslock in their own journal).
Re: The safe space metaphor
I know you meant it as something of a facetious idea, but there's a danger in that people might begin to think that they can 'warn' for innately racist behaviour and that precludes them having to apologise.
Does that make sense?
Re: The safe space metaphor
Several people have compared the POC experience to somebody standing on their foot and not getting off. People talk about actual hurt it causes. In that case, wouldn't it make sense to try to think of ways to evade it? Because in the end there is never a way to completely evade it. Because in the end you still are writing outside of your own experience and no amount of studying up on it will change that. So wouldn't the logical and fair thing be to slap a warning outside "This might not be as good as you have hoped for".
I'm thinking less with people mind who write actively horrible stuff, but more of the "I have well intention, but I'm worried I might not get everything right/I might fall short". To me, it's just fact that you are not going to get everything right. Even if you did an endless amount of historical research, you are not going to get everything right if you haven't lived through it (even if you manage evade things that are actively wrong; but there is a difference between "not getting it actively wrong" and "getting it perfectly right") and since this is fandom, people are even less likely to put in the same amount of research they would or should put in if they are writing an actual book. So wouldn't a fair thing be to give a warning?
It just seems to me that fandom is more or less built on the idea that you can write what you please and that you don't get to question people'e preferences. If somebody wants to write a teamfic where Teyla and Ronan are just afterthoughts that is incredibly depressing, but can you actually forbid people from writing it? At least a warning would indicate some awareness.
I get the idea of how minds have to change so attitudes will change. But isn't the approach from the backdoor also one that deserves considering? If you change the attitudes, maybe the mindsets will eventually change with it? (or how about a combo version? Install some attitude related laws like anti-discrimination laws and still work on trying to change mindsets on top of that)
Again, people use the language of immediate hurt. So wouldn't the normal reaction to hand out a bandaid? I get the idea that it is pointless to keep carrying over bandaids rather than fixing the bridge that is crumbling above. So why can't you do both? Hand out a bandaid and at the meantime continue thinking about how you can fix the bridge above? Work on both the mindsets and the attitudes?
Again, I can picture that these things might be boring or frustrating for fen of color (white fen talking amongst themselves how they could potentially make things nicer for our fellow fen of color), but maybe it is still something that has to happen. With of course, the problem of where we draw the line between things that really need to happen and things that are just the equivalent of tying your shoelaces for 5 hours.
Re: The safe space metaphor
This takes time, it takes effort and it takes a whole lot of commitment.
For myself, I know I can just withdraw completely into groups where I can still have challenging discussions, including the inevitable blunders, but I can dump the rest of fandom into the ash bin. It's not something I want to do but if it's a choice about my mental health versus hearing yet another chorus of "I'm a clueless white person" and a handful of bandaids then then I choose my peace of mind.
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As a POC I have at times have found fandom to be entirely to white and therefore have only lurked in one of two areas, yours being the main one and yes I do agree to an extent that some use it as their haven where they can live in their own little world of whitness with no interruptions.
Yet there is another side that welcomes your discussions and as I enjoys them, it reminds me that I am not alone in my thinking.
I respect what you do in all aspects of your writing but mostly in the voice you give to those characters of color. Without you and others like you, a reader would be hard press to know that poc existed in certain fandoms.
I true writer can give a voice to any character regardless of color. If you respect your character and your audience you would do what you must to bring that character to life. The same way a poc can write for an white character and audience the same should be for a white writer.
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Your posts are very informative, and I thank you for making them. If you like comments like "read it! thinking about it!", then I can give those. I just don't have anything of substance to contribute like you do.
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It's strange for me. I'm subconsciously aware of the "other" perspective I bring to my writing. I think these posts you make about race enrich your writing for me. I remember when I first started reading your fic, I liked the way you portrayed Teyla and John. You write Teyla as a person rather than just an alien.
I became more aware of the subtle differences in how writer's perceive race when I started betaing. Then suddenly, I have my potentially-offensive-use-of-terminology glasses on and I see things (and feel a certain level of obligation) to point it out to the writer where someone else might not have noticed it. Still, I feel a strong sense of naivety at time when confronted with such things, because I'm not one that's quickly offended. I just like to make someone aware of how certain things can be perceived if they're written just so.
But hey, I live in a place where many people think it's perfectly acceptable to sport Confederate flags on t-shirts (http://dixieoutfitters.com/dixie_store), cuz, ya know, it's about "heritage, not hate."
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I feel your pain.
Though I suppose technically that should be, "I feel y'all's pain." (as y'all is now singular)
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Yeah...I just woke up. : /
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Sometimes I suspect that some people view my growing tendency to post about race issues as "a new layer of paranoia for her to try to infect us with" rather than a new aspect of growth in my personal character.
I see my growing awareness of racial issues, tensions, and the systemic racism that pervades our society as more like the adoption of a new fandom or the inclusion of new friends - a natural part of time and change.
And hopefully, along the way, I've made others aware of how things can be perceived if they're written in a particular way, with someone's 'default race' blinders on.
I just want to say :)
I do love your spirit and I just love the way you "talk" when you write your entries. Never stop and I hope we didn't smother you with all the replies.
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Am I the crazy lady on the train?
Am I the stone in the shoe?
And if so, are the only options to wince and bear it or to throw the stone away?
One thing I think about it is that if someone who is a friend (not a reader, but some kind of internet friend) finds my existence as a PoC to be a stone in their shoe, they aren't actually my friend. Not really. Someone is not my friend if they only care about me when it's easy, and when it doesn't challenge them in anyway.
I also get a lot of value/strength/support/love in participating in a fandom wide discussion which includes other PoC who are fans. I also enjoy talking with people who are allies and people who get it.
Oh and uh I wrote this (http://sparkymonster.livejournal.com/243177.html) which might be interesting.
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Intellectually, I realise this. Emotionally, though, it stings like a bitch when people tell you (or imply) that "well, this just isn't my thing, you know?"
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And I think one of the ways in which racism hurts PoC, is that in our personal relationships with white people (professional, platonic, romantic, etc.) there is this quiet little niggling worry of "please don't reveal yourself to be someone who is OK saying/doing racist things." I always feel bad for having that worry, but honestly that worry isn't irrational. I've had far too many [former] friends reveal themselves to hold racist beliefs.
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To some degree, I can deal with this. To some degree.
I've discovered ingrained racist beliefs in myself before, and I'm dealing with them (after being slapped upside by people who I'm extremely grateful are still talking to me).
But it does hurt when people won't dialogue because "it's not my problem, I'm colourblind" without realising that being "blind to colour" is one way of ignoring that POC struggle - that at one level, it's pretending that the playing field is level, instead of the POC side being sown with stones.
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This is a really good point (although I use the language "prejudice" to refer to that kind of language between people of color). I wasn't thinking about ways in which I've held prejudiced and bigoted beliefs about my friends, but oh god yes. As I've become more aware of racism, prejudice and bigotry, I've become more aware of the ugliness that lies inside me. It's difficult to deal with. And I really do thank god I have friends who go "Sparky. Seriously. That was not OK." AND that I make myself listen to them.
But it does hurt when people won't dialogue because "it's not my problem, I'm colourblind" without realising that being "blind to colour" is one way of ignoring that POC struggle - that at one level, it's pretending that the playing field is level, instead of the POC side being sown with stones.
Yes. And it also ignores an important aspect of my self, my family, my life, my experiences, etc. Have you read this essay on color blind racism (http://www.rachelstavern.com/?p=395)? It's AMAZING.
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Several of the early commenterss seemed slightly Clueless, though. The admin (Rachel?) was good at answering them, though, so props to her!
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I've read a few of your fics; I'm not on your flist and you're not on mine, but we intersect sometimes. If I had more time, I'd probably add you to my flist.
I've read a few of your recent posts. I haven't commented until now, because I don't know what to say. I can at least say this: I've been reading an awful lot of posts (mostly from
The bad thing about not commenting is that of course people don't know that I've even read, let alone that I've been learning from them. Maybe I should have commented more, but I felt like saying "great post" sounded condescending, and that was the absolute last thing I wanted to do.
Sometimes a stone in my shoe is useful, because it tells me there's a hole in my shoe, and I need to get a new pair. I'm not always grateful to the stone, but I've learned something useful. I think I've pushed this metaphor as far as I should and should quit now. I don't think you're crazy, and you're not annoying me. I'm a white fan who does like to think of fandom as a safe place, but who already had some inklings it's not always a safe place for everyone. I have a much clearer picture now.
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Mostly, I wanted to challenge people on how they address topics or conversations that make them uncomfortable. I know at least one person unfriended me because I wasn't as happy with our common TV show as she was, and her attitude was one of "well, this is my happy place, I don't want to listen or admit there are negatives - it spoils my enjoyment."
The response of most people to something that challenges them is to ignore it. And those that need the most challenging are most often the ones to ignore the signs, simply because they can.
I was hoping to jerk a few people out of the 'let's ignore this because it makes me uncomfortable' mentality. I think I reached a few people this time; if there's a next time, maybe there'll be a few more?
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